(Link to video)
Submission Text Full Submission Page Publication Page

Knuckles in Sonic the Hedgehog 2 - Knuckles Ring Attack by Evil_3D, WST and Zurggriff

Role of the Authors

  • Evil_3D: Project founder, Author, TASer, Route planner.
  • WST: TASer, Co-Author, Movie editor (crucial), adviser.
  • Zurggriff: Taser, Co-Author, Optimizer, God.

Game info

This is a version of Sonic the Hedgehog 2 with Sonic & Knuckles locked on it. The title character is replaced by his rival, Knuckles. The levels remain unchanged. There is more than just an appearance change to this game. Knuckles' abilities remain intact. If you haven't seen Sonic the Hedgehog 2 completed before, you may wish to do so before seeing what a character with gliding and wall climbing can accomplish.

Emulator and tools Used

  • Gens Re-Recording 11b + Camera hack + Solidity and Terrain dysplay
  • Sonic TAS tools + Frame Advance

Game Objectives

  • Collect the maximum number of rings possible as Knuckles
  • Contains speed entertainment/trade-off
  • Aims for fastest in-game time, then fastest real time
  • Abuses programing errors
  • No deaths
  • "Perfect Bonus" (if possible)
  • Heavy glitch abuse
  • Manipulates Luck and enemies

Why we pick this goal?

It's common in Sonic TASes to see entire levels skipped using glitches, which some people don't always like. This movie is to give another perspective to Sonic 2, exploring levels, sharing strategies and use the terrain to collect rings faster.
  • Curious fact: the lightning shield does not exist in this game.

Time table and statistic

LevelNormal ringsMonitor ringsTotal ringsIn-game timePlayed by
Emerald Hill 1226702961:02.35WST, Zurggriff
Emerald Hill 2225602851:23.11Evil_3D
Chemical Plant 11951603552:00.43Evil_3D, Zurggriff
Chemical Plant 21571402972:09.26Evil_3D
Aquatic Ruin 1176702461:20.55Evil_3D
Aquatic Ruin 22161203362:18.29Evil_3D
Casino Night 1232703022:16.57Evil_3D
Casino Night 2224903142:41.31Evil_3D
Hilltop 1146401861:10.09Evil_3D
Hilltop 2199802792:20.04Evil_3D
Mystic Cave 1183702531:15.24Evil_3D
Mystic Cave 2220702902:47.26Evil_3D
Oil Ocean 1207902972:12.14Evil_3D
Oil Ocean 21831002831:47.37Evil_3D, Zurggriff
Metropolis 1218602781:33.41Evil_3D
Metropolis 2210702802:39.19Evil_3D
Metropolis 3153702232:00.18Evil_3D
Sky Chase670672:05.57Evil_3D
Wing Fortress1961002962:22.48Evil_3D
Death Egg0000:40.27Zurggriff
Total rings363315305163

What rings didn't get?

  • We collected 5163 out of 5174 rings as Knuckles in this game (99%). The difference of 11 rings consists of the following:
  • 1 Ring stuck inside a column in Aquatic Ruin 2 that only 2P Tails out of camera can pick up.
  • 10 Rings inside the walls of Casino Night 2 which are impossible to collect.
  • There is currently no known ways for Knuckles, Sonic or Tails to get any of these rings in Casino Night.

Why did we choose Knuckles?

  • His gameplay is interesting and is a treasure hunter.

Suggested screenshots

  • Frame 56143, 125914, 127637, 128901

Knuckles TAS tips

  • Wall climbing: Starting on the wall use (A^)(<)(<)(<)(A)(A)()...repeat. This is nearly always the fastest way to climb single walls
  • Braking on objects: (B)(<)(<)(<>)(<v)(vA) (6 frames), is the fastest way to braking on Objects if you don't have "128, 256, 384, 512, etc." speed.

Stage by Stage comments - Evil_3D

Emerald Hill 1

  • 0:16/1423 - Falling in the invisible object at the correct vertical speed I do not brake with the terrain and I can continue without stopping
  • 0:17/1468 - With the correct possition you I can roll and break this monitors.
  • 0:27/2084 - Zurggriff managed the "run up the slope" and "monitor madness" tricks to save time like in the any% run
  • 0:49/3391 - Is possible boosting up to 4342 the speed here.

Emerald Hill 2

  • 0:02/5692 - Pushing me with the Masher (badnik) I can grab the rings in the sky in frame 5740 at once
  • 0:07/6013 - Glide glitch through the bridge I can grab the rings down faster.
  • 0:29/7317 - Same as EHZ 1 if I fall at the correct vertical speed I don't gain the 15 frames penalisation here
  • 0:46/8342 - Is possible grab all the rings with one fall and precise jump.

Chemical Plant 1

This is the first zone where have Knuckles only monitors that needs climbing: 3 Life monitors, 3 ring monitors and 1 Invulnerability monitor.
  • 0:14/12931 - Here are the first monitors.
  • 0:40/14504 - This is a secret place, in Sonic 2 have 2 ring and 1 invulnerability monitors but in Knuckles version only have 2 ring monitors
  • 0:43/14660 - Glide through the pipe cover save some frames.
  • 1:01/15768 - Glide through this object can zip to the next area and grab the rings at frame 15889 faster.
  • 1:28/17341 - This is the second Knuckles only monitor, but Sonic and Tails can arrive here jumping, but in Sonic 2 this monitor does not exist.
  • 1:41/18154 - Thanks to I arrives just in time in this pipe, the right way is shorter.
  • 1:52/18800 - Here is the third and last Knuckles only ring monitor.
  • 1:55/18996 - Glide through this object saves a lot of time and I can grab the rings down faster.

Chemical Plant 2

This Zone have Knuckles only monitors too, but only are extra lives.
  • 0:11/21366 - Waiting for the time to reach 12 secs, took the left path which is faster instead of the upper one first.
  • 0:21/21955 - Thanks to a precise jump I can grab all the rings above
  • 0:52/23816 - This jump is for manipulate the time for take the upper path in the tube at 0:53.
  • 1:18/25389 - Enter in rolling state for manipulate the camera, If I continued running I would not be able to grab 1 ring in the spiral
  • 1:19/25456 - Another precise jump like at frame 21955
  • 1:31/26168 - Luckily, this object was well synchronized and I did not waste time waiting for, so I glide through him
  • 1:37/26540 - Originally I glide through this bridge but Editing the movie for whatever reason now the bridge is down
  • 1:51/27384 - With a precise glide glitch I enter in the terrain and breack the monitors faster, Sadly I can't zip from here, the wall is very small.

Aquatic Ruin 1

  • 0:05/30328 - Spindash a little late to avoid the arrow and don't take damage.
  • 0:27/31665 - Spindash in this position to prevent the column falling and blocking me.
  • 0:49/32981 - Taking these rings benefited me in the end.
  • 0:59/33561 - Enjoy the power of the speed shoes.
  • 1:16/34570 - This guy can manipulates the luck too.
  • 1:18/34691 - Keep running here is more faster than touch the red spring.

Aquatic Ruin 2

This is the first zone where appear the first unreachable ring, sadly Knuckles alone can't grab this ring, but Sonic and Tails can grab the ring when Tails is off the camara because he don't interact with the objects off-screen.
  • 0:02/36393 - With the proper speed and position is possible run in this columns.
  • 0:13/37047 - Very useful jump to go to the another spiral
  • 0:31/38145 - Jumping in this spring to the upper path saves a lot of time
  • 0:52/39420 - Touching the monitor to drop it and breaking it with a spindash saves a lot of time, but I need to take an air bubble later.
  • 1:03/40050 - Waiting the air bubble for to not drown.
  • 1:14/40703 - This is the first unreachable ring that I mentioned before.
  • 1:42/42373 - Cool sync sfx-music
  • 2:04/43746 - Same as Emerald Hill trick, If you roll+jump 1 frame before the ground you gain an extra speed boost, perfect to jump directly to robotnik.
  • 2:07/43901 - Small pause for load the boss quickly.
  • 2:16/44440 - If you hit Robotnik in a precise frame the explosion sequence is skipped, in the capsule loads before.

Casino Night 1

  • 0:11/46558 - This position is necessary to cross the flipper at frame 46698.
  • 0:18/46988 - glide through this objects saves a lot of time.
  • 0:48/48780 - With jumping in the flipper here can do a perfect frame jump in 48817 and climb the wall.
  • 1:11/50183 - glide here and fall in the monitor at 50259 saves time.
  • 1:29/51262 - This is a serie of precise jumps to cross the springs at 51419 and save time.
  • 2:05/53405 - For some reason if you touch the ceiling here you don't enter in rolling state and you can backtrack to the other pinball area.

Casino Night 2

This is the second zone where appear the second group of unreachable rings, 14 in sky at the begining 2 groups of 7, only Knuckles can grab these rings. 10 rings inside the walls but is impossible grab these for any character.
  • 0:05/55812 - Using the red spring to run and jump in frame 55838, later gliding and broken the speed shoes monitor in frame 55966, I get the sufficient heigh to grab the unreachable rings in the sky at frame 56141, This only works as Knuckles.
  • 0:39/57834 - Spindash thought this object saves time.
  • 0:56/58849 - Same as frame 57834, saves a lot of time.
  • 1:23/60481 - Unespected spindash.
  • 1:40/61475 - gliding is useful here... and funny
  • 2:20/63861 - Using this flipper to get the rings above and use perfect positions at frame 63940 to fall with a high speed and grab the last rings and go to the boss zone faster.

Hilltop 1

  • 0:07/66872 - Spindash before the ball fall don't lose the dash state when jump.
  • 0:52/69601 - Enter in the terrain here to save time.

Hilltop 2

  • 0:19/73178 - With the perfect position I can destroy the badnik at frame 73220 without taking damage.
  • 0:31/73879 - Spindash through the doors here I can backtrack and going to the upper path and collect all rings in this zone.
  • 0:53/75239 - Same trick as HTZ 1

Mystic Cave 1

  • 0:25/83389 - Rolling to not get damage from the badnik.
  • 0:32/83824 - Knuckles don't have the enough jump heigh to go up there but spindash through the bridge at frame 84707 I can go to this section.
  • 0:52/85037 - This glide-fall is necessary to get a good Y-subpixel position, this is necessary to jump and maintain the speed in +3030, this is crucial for grab the next 3 rings above the box and the jump at fram 85144.

Mystic Cave 2

This is the third zone where appear unreachable rings, 8 can be grabed with a regular gliding but 2 of these need a especific trick that requires a flasher (badnik) to get a perfect position, this trick take time but is the only way.
  • 0:06/88132 - Spindash through the bridge like in the first zone, I use this trick in the course of the level to save time.
  • 0:20/88970 - The speed shoes are essentials for the route.
  • 1:16/92346 - Here is where the trick begins, I need to wait the flasher enter in the ceiling because this enemy has a preprogrammed route and cannot be manipulated, is for that I need to wait, if you don't want to wait skip to 2:05/95240.

Oil Ocean 1

This zone have 4 Knuckles only ring monitors.
  • 0:26/100844 - First Knuckles ring monitor.
  • 0:38/101553 - Spindash before fall to the oil saves time.
  • 0:44/101899 - This ring monitor can respawn endlessly, but it is very trivial to break it for 9 minutes.
  • 0:54/102470 - Second Knuckles ring monitor.
  • 0:58/102760 - Third Knuckles ring monitor.
  • 1:24/104310 - Jump here and use the Aquis (Badnik) lower to get the fourth Knuckles ring monitor faster at 104573.
  • 1:49/105811 - Fast climbing to avoid the fan and gliding directly to the canyon.
  • 2:04/106709 - Glide through the spike and zip to the next area saves a lot of time.

Oil Ocean 2

This is the fourth zone where appear unreachable rings, 18 ring in total 6 groups of 3 scattered on the map. Fortunately it is possible to get all rings as Knuckles with the super speed glitch.
Activating speed glitch 8 times is enough to pass through the walls and collect the unreachable rings.
  • 1:30/113929 - This group of rings are difficult to grab with the speed glitch and keep it activated, but Zurggriff did it without any problem and I was able to continue the zone with the glitch activated.
  • 1:37/114347 - This jump is not really necessary, is more for speed/fun and activated the look at the sky.

Metropolis 1

In this zone glide glitch and spindash through objects are the most useful tricks here, I do not think it's necessary to emphasize where I use it.
  • 0:33/118447 - Camera trick to pass through the door up there.
  • 0:54/119714 - Spindash through the bolt and glide clip in the movement spiral saves a lot of time instead of climbing.
  • 1:24/121510 - Secret place :P

Metropolis 2

This is the fifth and last zone where appear the unreachable rings, 12 in total 4 groups of 3, the strategy here is to take advantage of slope glitch and collect all of these rings. (recommended using camhack to see whats happen).
  • 0:09/124025 - I decided to collect these rings on the ramp to manipulate the Slicer (badnik) above in the frame 124264, if I jump to the springs before time I receive damage from this enemy.
  • 0:19/124577 - Glide through the bolt and fall directly in the upper path, take invulnerability monitor and activate the slope glitch at frame 124990.
  • 0:36/125641 - With this position and slope glitch is possible grab the unreachable rings in the middle of the zone at frame 126107.
  • 0:52/126568 - The same trick why I leave 1 ring before.
  • 1:04/127323 - This is the way to collect the third group of rings at frame 128110.
  • 1:38/129363 - Inside this wall are the last group of rings, so perfect bonus is possible now.

Metropolis 3

Same as Metropolis 1 and 2, taking advantage of glide clip and spindash through objects to save a lot of time, nothing special to say, the level is played normally.

Sky Chase

Auto scrolling level, nothing to say, the only fun fact is: If Knuckles don't jump can keep the combo chains, the max score possible in Sky Chase with this trick is 372900.

Wing Fortress

The last level with rings, don't have a score table at the end but yes a lot of rings to collect.
  • 0:21/152171 - Waiting this object and spindash is faster.
  • 0:43/153489 - Break this monitor is faster than climbing for him later.
  • 1:03/154706 - This precise jump saves time.
  • 1:05/154809 - Hidden ring monitor.
  • 1:11/155167 - Another hidden ring monitor :P
  • 1:32/156457 - Look down and jump I can pass through the wall and save time.

Stage comments by WST

This run has 2 stages which include my direct contributions, they are Emerald Hill 1 and Hill Top 2.

Emerald Hill Zone 1

When Evil_3D made EHZ1, I noticed imperfection in some places and decided to redo it. When redoing, I slightly changed the route, which helped me to save some seconds. Finally I decided to add the tricks known as “run up a slope” and “monitor madness”, but sadly, when I applied them, I also skipped a ring. This was fixed by Zurggriff and his positioning magic

Hilltop Zone 2

Then I decided to improve HTZ2 — I was curious about the reasons which caused Evil_3D to wait for the lava to rise up and decided to check everything myself. As I discovered, it was not necessary at all — one can simply collect all the rings and spindash through the doors instead of waiting for the lava to use it for glitching through those doors. Later Evil_3D found some improvements to my attempt as well.

Possible Improvements (Most remarked by Zurggriff and WST)

  • CPZ2: Climbing will be better.
  • CPZ2: 24791 - spindash through the pipe maybe saves some frames.
  • CPZ2: 26640 - A jump around here going straight up gives Knuckles a huge speed boost upon exiting the water.
  • ARZ2: 40388 - Maybe jumping around here allows Knuckles to glide to the crumble platform.
  • CNZ2: I forgot pressing [^] when climbing the elevators, this maybe saves some frames.
  • HTZ1: 69730 - It is possible to spindash and jump to around this location earlier without being crushed.
  • HTZ1: 70505 - It is faster to stop on the quarter-pipe and spindash from there, immediately followed by a jump.
  • HTZ2: 79441 - It is faster to climb this wall rather than using the spring.
  • MTZ3: 138200 - roll+jump to touch the red spring earlier can save ~11 frames.
  • In some stages the capsule is hit one frame late.

Special thanks

  • Theyogwog: For inspire me on making this ring-attack.
  • WST: For learn me how to TASing and help.
  • Marzojr: For his useful Sonic TAS Tools.
  • Zurggriff: For his awesome optimization level and help.
  • Kiske/Tee-N-Tee: For the previous Any% run.
  • Felipe: For his old "Perfec Bonus" run.
  • Okral: For his glitch videos.
  • Joshep: For his support.
  • The Sonic Center: For his detailed Sonic 2 maps.
  • Everyone in the S2K thread, for his help, tips and support.
  • TAS Videos: For let me sharing my work.

Sorry if my English is a little bad.

GoddessMaria: Judging.
GoddessMaria: Alright... this submission's legality was questioned at first due to the ROM used, but that is no longer an issue as it still works on the verified clean dump. So moving on to another matter: the goal choice. It is a valid goal which aims to collect every possible ring in each Act as fast as possible using Knuckles. The question is: Does this run meet its goal? Yes, it does meet its main goal while adding entertaining moments in for good measure. While there are a number of small improvements here and there, none of them are so significant enough to completely warrant rejection. Overall, this submission has been very well made and the audience response was very positive. Therefore...
Accepting this to Moons as a separate category.
feos: Let's pub.
feos: Knuckles is in the game name, no need to keep him in the branch name too. See [2752] Genesis Sonic 3 & Amy Rose by WST & marzojr in 29:27.58 [3038] Genesis Knuckles in Sonic the Hedgehog 2 by Kiske, Tee-N-Tee, Aglar & WST in 17:41.90 [3325] Genesis Knuckles in Sonic the Hedgehog 2 by Zurggriff in 17:41.85. Moreover, you can't even use other characters in Sonic and Knuckles & Sonic 2, so yeah.

Show more

Hide
1 2
Posted: 2/5/2017 3:22 PM
Quote
TASVideoAgent
They/Them
Moderator
Joined: 8/3/2004
Posts: 15628
Location: 127.0.0.1
This topic is for the purpose of discussing #5385: Evil_3D, WST & Zurggriff's Genesis Sonic the Hedgehog 2 "ring attack" in 45:01.63
Posted: 2/5/2017 3:25 PM
Quote
fsvgm777
She/Her
Senior Publisher, Player (226)
Joined: 5/28/2009
Posts: 1217
Location: Luxembourg
"ROM filename: Sonic and Knuckles & Sonic 2 (W) [f1].bin" Why did you not use a verified good dump of the game (labeled as [!] in GoodTools)?
Steam Community page - Bluesky profile Oh, I'm just a concerned observer.
Posted: 2/5/2017 4:11 PM
Quote
Evil_3D
Editor, Experienced player (587)
Joined: 10/22/2016
Posts: 581
Location: Argentina
Sega TAS of 2019 Speedy TAS of 2019
I did not know, this is my first submission here, and the movie does not desync if you use the (!) room, WST can confirm that.
You can see more TASes on my youtube channel
Posted: 2/5/2017 4:17 PM
Quote
Challenger
He/Him
Skilled player (1702)
Joined: 2/23/2016
Posts: 1065
Sega TASer of 2017 TASer of 2017 NES TAS of 2017
Great work on this Ring Attack! Too bad that's not possible to get the other unreachable rings. But despite this problem, this TAS is solid for me. Yes vote.
My homepage --Currently not much motived for TASing as before...-- But I'm still working.
Posted: 2/5/2017 4:41 PM
Quote
Alyosha
He/Him
Editor, Emulator Coder, Expert player (3827)
Joined: 11/30/2014
Posts: 2834
Location: US
GBA TASer of 2023 Homebrew TAS of 2023 Gameboy TASer of 2022 NES TASer of 2015
I like challenge runs like this. Especailly for a sonic game I find this way more interesting and entertaining then a typical sonic run, and the movement isn't as stop and go either. Voting yes!
Posted: 2/5/2017 4:57 PM
Quote
Archanfel
Skilled player (1459)
Joined: 11/26/2011
Posts: 656
Location: RU
Sega TAS of 2018 Sega TASer of 2015 Sega TAS of 2015
I always like "ring attack" and other non-trivial goals. Especially it true for sonic games - where crazy actions on full map is a tenfold more enjoyable and entertaining to watch than simple zipping to end of stage. Easy yes vote. Good job guys!
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell) Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
Posted: 2/5/2017 5:09 PM
Quote
fsvgm777
She/Her
Senior Publisher, Player (226)
Joined: 5/28/2009
Posts: 1217
Location: Luxembourg
Evil_3D wrote:
I did not know, this is my first submission here, and the movie does not desync if you use the (!) room, WST can confirm that.
It's mentioned in the movie rules that you must use a verified good dump of the game. However, since the run syncs on a verified good dump regardless of you using an [f1] dump, it's all fine.
Steam Community page - Bluesky profile Oh, I'm just a concerned observer.
Posted: 2/5/2017 11:10 PM
Quote
SmashManiac
Player (13)
Joined: 6/17/2006
Posts: 510
I really enjoy the "maximum rings" idea, and the run is very entertaining. It's clear that a lot of work went into this TAS. However, I have major concerns concerning the goal choice. First, the special stages contains a lot of rings, and they were skipped. I understand that they're different kind of rings, but I feel that the main goal was not accomplished because of it. Also, the submission text indicates that an extra ring can be collected in the main stages when playing normal Sonic the Hedgehog 2. (It would also be greatly beneficial in the special stages due to split ring paths.) I'm not sure how if would affect the entertainment value, but it terms of pure rings count, picking the Knuckles version seems sub-optimal and arbitrary to me. As a final note, I'm wondering what are the speed entertainment/trade-off mentioned in the submission text, as I'm not seeing any details about it.
The BIG List of Video Game Randomizers
Posted: 2/5/2017 11:38 PM
Quote
Patashu
He/Him
Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4045
SmashManiac wrote:
Also, the submission text indicates that an extra ring can be collected in the main stages when playing normal Sonic the Hedgehog 2. (It would also be greatly beneficial in the special stages due to split ring paths.) I'm not sure how if would affect the entertainment value, but it terms of pure rings count, picking the Knuckles version seems sub-optimal and arbitrary to me.
Yes, Knuckles misses 1 ring, but he more than makes up for it with other rings only he can get: 'Casino Night 2 This is the second zone where appear the second group of unreachable rings, 14 in sky at the begining 2 groups of 7, only Knuckles can grab these rings. ' So in the end it's a wash - each character's Ring Attack collects a different subset of all rings in the stages.
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu
Posted: 2/6/2017 1:20 AM
Quote
Zamasu
Joined: 12/7/2016
Posts: 33
Well, I've seen a bit of Evil_3D's previous work, although it seems to me that doing a ring attack is a goal to take advantage of the character's abilities and enjoy them for a longer time but being honest, this Knuckles i see slow compared to the Knuckles of Sonic 3. By the way a curiosity question: Naming it "Ring Attack" is because the objective "PERFECT BONUS" is unreachable?
Some Zamasu's quotes: - When I was invited to this place, I thought you would teach me about justice. However, does the justice of the gods not only pass by to observe? - Every time I am attacked, I enjoy my immortality.
Posted: 2/6/2017 2:14 AM
Quote
morningpee
They/Them
Player (56)
Joined: 11/28/2013
Posts: 119
Very nice, yes vote! My favorite parts were the spin-dash glitch used at 18:34, the strat used to get 2 unreachable coins in Mystic Cave Zone 2, and all of Oil Ocean Zone 2. At first I wasn't sure if the ring losses at 30:16, 30:30, etc. were legal, then I realized you were collecting it again. The super-fast movement that it enabled was very cool! Close call at 39:43…
SmashManiac wrote:
I really enjoy the "maximum rings" idea
I wouldn't call it "maximum coins" because it is not comparable to [2977] NES Super Mario Bros. "maximum coins" by TEHH_083, HappyLee & CuteQt in 26:10.25. If it were, there would be a lot of back-tracking in each level to collect each ring multiple times. This could be accomplished by entering/exiting special stages, which causes all rings to respawn but does not reset the ring count, and you could potentially do this for each star post. I am glad the branch is "ring attack" and not "maximum rings".
Projects: Tetris DS Genesis Toys: Let the Toy Wars Begin
Posted: 2/6/2017 6:04 AM
Quote
WST
She/Her
Active player (490)
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1697
Location: RU · ID · AM
Zamasu wrote:
By the way a curiosity question: Naming it "Ring Attack" is because the objective "PERFECT BONUS" is unreachable?
Because it’s really a ring attack and not a “perfect bonus” run. The main difference is that this run also collects monitor rings, which are not needed to get that bonus. The main reason making Knuckles look slower in this run than in S3&K is inability to spindash during 15 frames after landing from gliding state; it can sometimes be avoided by landing on the same frame when you start gliding, but braking from the speed of 1024 sp/f is still slower than charging the spindash immediately in S3&K.
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2 my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
Posted: 2/6/2017 6:05 AM
Post subject: Ring Attack
Quote
Zurggriff
Active player (464)
Joined: 11/16/2016
Posts: 34
Sega TAS of 2022
SmashManiac wrote:
Also, the submission text indicates that an extra ring can be collected in the main stages when playing normal Sonic the Hedgehog 2. (It would also be greatly beneficial in the special stages due to split ring paths.) I'm not sure how if would affect the entertainment value, but it terms of pure rings count, picking the Knuckles version seems sub-optimal and arbitrary to me.
Sonic the Hedgehog 2 and Knuckles in Sonic the Hedgehog 2 are two separate games and one would not obsolete another, just as there are separate published runs for fastest game completion with neither being superior over another. Regarding the in-level rings that were not collected, efforts were made to collect them but all attempts were unsuccessful. As far as doing the impossible goes, Mystic Cave 2, Oil Ocean 2, and Metropolis 2 were previously believed to be impossible to collect all of the rings. And just to point out, this Knuckles Ring Attack collects 5163 rings while the Sonic with Tails run only has 5104 rings in total to collect due to Knuckles only ring monitors (this is a separate game).
Zamasu wrote:
Naming it "Ring Attack" is because the objective "PERFECT BONUS" is unreachable?
Even if this run managed to get the missing rings in Aquatic Ruin 2 and Casino Night 2 which would subsequently get the Perfect Bonus in every level that has a bonus display, it would still be a "Ring Attack" because it aims to collect the maximum number of rings possible in the levels (excluding the Casino Night slots and the respawning ring monitor in Oil Ocean 2 which are both trivial and boring).
Posted: 2/6/2017 6:57 AM
Quote
supersonicjc
Joined: 5/27/2012
Posts: 70
Location: Wisconsin
love it, total yes vote, would jumping into the slot machine in cnz to collect more rings turn the perfect bonus off?? also would love to see a ring attack of sonic 1 with our favorite red treasure hunter, and maybe to see a ring attack with sonic and miles to include the special stages altho that may make it harder since once you get 50 rings in this game sonic turns super and would add pointless time to a run
Posted: 2/6/2017 6:59 AM
Quote
WST
She/Her
Active player (490)
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1697
Location: RU · ID · AM
supersonicjc wrote:
would jumping into the slot machine in cnz to collect more rings turn the perfect bonus off??
The question about the slot machine is answerred by Zurggriff right before your message. It’s just “trivial and boring”.
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2 my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
Posted: 2/6/2017 7:24 AM
Post subject: Perfect Bonus
Quote
Zurggriff
Active player (464)
Joined: 11/16/2016
Posts: 34
Sega TAS of 2022
The only thing that controls getting the Perfect Bonus are the individual rings located throughout the level. Collecting rings from the slots with neither count toward the ring count needed for the bonus, nor prevent it from being achievable.
Posted: 2/6/2017 7:54 AM
Quote
The8bitbeast
He/Him
Expert player (2644)
Joined: 11/26/2015
Posts: 183
Location: Australia
Sega TASer of 2022 Exotic platforms TAS of 2020 Exotic platforms TAS of 2020 Sega TASer of 2019 Glitchy TAS of 2019 PSX TASer of 2017 Sega TASer of 2017 Sega TASer of 2016
Nice TAS. I enjoyed seeing some of the interesting routes like in Chemical Plant and it was funny seeing that it worked out better sometimes to grab 1 or 2 rings out of a set of 3 and come back for the others. There were a lot of little clips that were cool. It was also interesting to see how the game locks you onto certain paths through the level. Oil ocean 2 was easily my favorite level. I didn’t know you could repeat the glitch to get more speed. Getting all the score in Sky Chase was great. While it would have been good to see the special stages included I understand why you wouldn't. Respawning rings would make the goals far too difficult to define. The goal choice seemed a bit arbitrary and usually I prefer any% runs but I enjoyed this one a lot. It was good to see more gameplay in between the totals screens rather than score countdowns taking up most of the run.
Posted: 2/6/2017 1:58 PM
Quote
Evil_3D
Editor, Experienced player (587)
Joined: 10/22/2016
Posts: 581
Location: Argentina
Sega TAS of 2019 Speedy TAS of 2019
Thanks for the support ^.^, I'm glad that this type of runs/gameplays people enjoy it, maybe in the future make one of Knuckles in Sonic 1.
Zamasu wrote:
By the way a curiosity question: Naming it "Ring Attack" is because the objective "PERFECT BONUS" is unreachable?
Well, Ring-Attack is normally called the goal when you must want to collect every all type of ring (normal ring, monitor ring, -- badnik ring~> Sonic advance) in a single normal zone in every Sonic game. The perfect bonus is only activated when you grab all the normal rings (In some zones can't be obtained) and is a unique feature that has Sonic 2, except Sonic 3 for the special stages (and Sonic 1 if I remember). About Casino Night 1/2, The only thing I had to do was go in to the slot machines and get 999 rings, and Oil Ocean 1 break the ring monitor until reaching 999 rings, this of cource is very boring.
Zamasu wrote:
but being honest, this Knuckles i see slow compared to the Knuckles of Sonic 3.
Yes, maybe, in Sonic 2 the Knuckles physics are a little differents than S3K, he have the 15 frames penalisation here and need to brakin some time. Also it can be that in Sonic 3 the zones are longer, more varied, there are more rings (8836 rings and theyogwog collects 8577 of these), paths, lightning shield, etc. Is completely another book literally. About Special Stages, I obviously decided to ignore them because if I do a Ring Attack or "Perfect Bonus" there, in consequence I get an Chaos Emerald, and when I have the 7 emeralds and I decide climbing or gliding, the super form is activated and I have the ring drain effect, this turn is more difficult to set the maximum ring counter. That's why I did not put "100%" or "all emeralds" as a goal, I hope this was understand. Greetings.
You can see more TASes on my youtube channel
Posted: 2/6/2017 3:03 PM
Quote
Dooty
Expert player (2470)
Joined: 6/2/2009
Posts: 1182
Location: Teresópolis - Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
Sega TASer of 2013 SNES TASer of 2012 SNES TASer of 2010
In early stage I was like; why are they passing by those easy to grab rings? Then you went back to collect a bunch of rings and those rings were just in your way. Just genius! Then there are the more "glitchy" stages, like Oil Ocean Zone 2, that one was simply insane! I like to see more of the game when possible, like 100% runs, and from all the Sonic runs I've watched so far, this one is not just one of the best ones, but the best one. Great job, guys, and of course, my vote is Yes.
I am old enough to know better, but not enough to do it.
Posted: 2/6/2017 7:32 PM
Quote
SmashManiac
Player (13)
Joined: 6/17/2006
Posts: 510
Patashu wrote:
Yes, Knuckles misses 1 ring, but he more than makes up for it with other rings only he can get: 'Casino Night 2 This is the second zone where appear the second group of unreachable rings, 14 in sky at the begining 2 groups of 7, only Knuckles can grab these rings. ' So in the end it's a wash - each character's Ring Attack collects a different subset of all rings in the stages.
Thank you for the correction, I missed this detail.
Zurggriff wrote:
Sonic the Hedgehog 2 and Knuckles in Sonic the Hedgehog 2 are two separate games and one would not obsolete another, just as there are separate published runs for fastest game completion with neither being superior over another. Regarding the in-level rings that were not collected, efforts were made to collect them but all attempts were unsuccessful. As far as doing the impossible goes, Mystic Cave 2, Oil Ocean 2, and Metropolis 2 were previously believed to be impossible to collect all of the rings. And just to point out, this Knuckles Ring Attack collects 5163 rings while the Sonic with Tails run only has 5104 rings in total to collect due to Knuckles only ring monitors (this is a separate game).
Again, thank you for the correction. As for the "separate games" argument, I think that's irrelevant. What matters is that both games are extremely similar, and I can definitively see one run obsolete the other for this reason, just like it happened multiple times with Pokémon TASes.
The BIG List of Video Game Randomizers
Posted: 2/6/2017 11:01 PM
Post subject: Re: #5385: Evil_3D, WST & Zurggriff's Genesis Knuckles in Sonic the Hedgehog 2 "Knuckles, ring attack" in 45:01.63
Quote
Zamasu
Joined: 12/7/2016
Posts: 33
TASVideoAgent wrote:
Possible Improvements (Most remarked by zurggriff and WST) CPZ2: Climbing will be better. CPZ2: 24791 - spindash through the pipe maybe saves some frames. CPZ2: 26640 - A jump around here going straight up gives Knuckles a huge speed boost upon exiting the water. ARZ2: 40388 - Maybe jumping around here allows Knuckles to glide to the crumble platform. CNZ2: I forgot pressing [^] when climbing the elevators, this maybe saves some frames. HTZ1: 69730 - It is possible to spindash and jump to around this location earlier without being crushed. HTZ1: 70505 - It is faster to stop on the quarter-pipe and spindash from there, immediately followed by a jump. HTZ2: 79441 - It is faster to climb this wall rather than using the spring. MTZ3: 138200 - roll+jump to touch the red spring earlier can save ~11 frames. In some stages the capsule is hit one frame late.
There are many possible improvements mentioned in the information in this presentation. Was not it better to try them before presenting? You may have optimized a bit.
Some Zamasu's quotes: - When I was invited to this place, I thought you would teach me about justice. However, does the justice of the gods not only pass by to observe? - Every time I am attacked, I enjoy my immortality.
Posted: 2/6/2017 11:16 PM
Quote
BigBoct
He/Him
Editor, Former player
Joined: 8/9/2007
Posts: 1692
Location: Tiffin/Republic, OH
That was awesome and I'm also super-happy about the point abuse in Sky Chase.
SmashManiac wrote:
Again, thank you for the correction. As for the "separate games" argument, I think that's irrelevant. What matters is that both games are extremely similar, and I can definitively see one run obsolete the other for this reason, just like it happened multiple times with Pokémon TASes.
I don't think that's a fair comparison. Pokemon games in the same generation, for the most part, are almost identical in every way; the differences between versions are only meant to force you to trade with another player for some monsters. Knuckles plays very differently from Sonic/Tails. That's enough in my mind to warrant separate branches if any of these wonderful TASers take on that challenge. Let's extrapolate what you're saying to another game. Would you say that we should only publish Richter runs of Castlevania: Symphony of the Night because Alucard runs take way longer? EDIT: Let's turn it another way too. Say Knuckles was playable in base Sonic 2 without locking it onto Sonic and Knuckles. What would your opinion be?
Previous Name: boct1584
Posted: 2/7/2017 6:06 AM
Post subject: Re: #5385: Evil_3D, WST & Zurggriff's Genesis Knuckles in Sonic the Hedgehog 2 "Knuckles, ring attack" in 45:01.63
Quote
WST
She/Her
Active player (490)
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1697
Location: RU · ID · AM
Zamasu wrote:
TASVideoAgent wrote:
Possible Improvements (Most remarked by zurggriff and WST) CPZ2: Climbing will be better. CPZ2: 24791 - spindash through the pipe maybe saves some frames. CPZ2: 26640 - A jump around here going straight up gives Knuckles a huge speed boost upon exiting the water. ARZ2: 40388 - Maybe jumping around here allows Knuckles to glide to the crumble platform. CNZ2: I forgot pressing [^] when climbing the elevators, this maybe saves some frames. HTZ1: 69730 - It is possible to spindash and jump to around this location earlier without being crushed. HTZ1: 70505 - It is faster to stop on the quarter-pipe and spindash from there, immediately followed by a jump. HTZ2: 79441 - It is faster to climb this wall rather than using the spring. MTZ3: 138200 - roll+jump to touch the red spring earlier can save ~11 frames. In some stages the capsule is hit one frame late.
There are many possible improvements mentioned in the information in this presentation. Was not it better to try them before presenting? You may have optimized a bit.
“Try” would mean redoing the whole run from scratch. So, we decided that it’s better to mark the possible improvements than to pretend that the run is “perfect”. The least, in fact, is absolutely impossible for ring attacks. The descriptions of the possible improvements seem to be shortened — for example, the last one originally sounded like this:
WST wrote:
At frame 138200, roll+jump to touch the red spring earlier. Then some precise positioning will allow you to take the first ring in the group while still moving up, and this will allow you to land much further to the right. The next change is jumping at a corner near X position = 5386, which will give you some extra boost. These changes saved me 11 frames.
But I am really glad that Evil_3D cares about those who may redo it in the future giving them tips instead of pretending that our run is absolutely good. (upd) a well-known Sonic glitch finder asked me to post his opinion here:
Skype 4.3.0.37 wrote:
[17:08:30] S3Kglitches: but btw it'd be nice if Evil_3D did also long version zones [17:08:47] WST: Can you post it there so he reads? [17:09:01] S3Kglitches: I think I saw a part of that ring attack but idk what part or wip [17:09:08] S3Kglitches: I don't have a tasvideos account [17:09:14] S3Kglitches: can you please post it for me? =D [17:09:20] WST: Ok wait
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2 my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
Posted: 2/7/2017 3:52 PM
Quote
Evil_3D
Editor, Experienced player (587)
Joined: 10/22/2016
Posts: 581
Location: Argentina
Sega TAS of 2019 Speedy TAS of 2019
I summarize it so the text does not get so long, but I think it's understood. edit: About the S2 long version maybe I can try, but are screens of the entire map of the zones? and if I remember some zones the both stages are the same, IDK if the hack was updated, I played it years ago.
You can see more TASes on my youtube channel
Posted: 2/10/2017 2:48 AM
(Edited: 2/10/2017 4:11 AM)
Quote
TheYogWog
Editor, Active player (380)
Joined: 7/13/2013
Posts: 138
Sega TAS of 2019 Speedy TAS of 2019
How could I not vote yes on this? Great job, guys. By the way, I love the cover image of Knuckles hunting rings. Did someone make that just for this run, or...? Additional thoughts: 6:37 Why the jump before going down the tube? Faster down speed / tube speed...? 17:30: Hm... were you not able to fall between the cheeseburgers? I thought I remembered doing that as a kid. 26:33: Watching this for the first time was actually very dramatic despite, or perhaps because of, the fact you just stood there doing nothing. Really exciting, honestly. All of Oil Ocean 2: Sorcery. You absolute madman. Evil_3D: Just wondering, what was the hardest stage to route? Chemical Plant? Got any other comments on routing?
Knuckles does, what Sonican't.
1 2