No idea if this is even close to a good idea, due to not really knowing the game that well, but if you really want to do a Zelda run...
Could you do a 100% run? You know, all heart containers, best weapon, all sub items? (And whatever else I have missed.)
Do not think I have seen one for this game, here or anywhere else, so you do not have to be worried with direct competition if that is one thing putting you off. (Though course... still has to be good.)
There might be a good reason for that though, like I say, I do not know the game as well as others.
The thing is, 100% is a definition. I can make a 100% definition that is absolutely unreasonable to TAS.
There are spots on the overworld called "Secrets to Everybody." You can only collect them once. A 100% run would have to collect all of them. Similarly, there are places where you can be fined for destroying an old man's door. All of those would need to be collected also. All burnable trees should be burned. And the game should be finished will all items, (red potion), max bombs, full life, and 254 rupees.
It might be boring for you, but I would be interested to see the fastest route that accomplishes that.
As would I. :)
Dacicus wrote:
Don't you mean 255 rupees?
Depends. One rupee is required for the Ganon-killing arrow, but then he could just go back a couple rooms and kill an enemy to get it...<_<
I mean, sure it would be interesting, but it's impractical. I would be more interested in a proof of the fastest route (with or without glitches.)
If I recall correctly, I don't think you can go back after defeating Ganon.
ShadowWraith wrote:
Imagine doing the same thing for Pokémon.
This is why that kind of 100% definition is bad.
With Pokemon the problem wouldn't be catching 'em all, or even finding all the secrets. It would be leveling them all up to 100, and then maxing out their experience points.
In pokemon, a 100% run is collecting all pokemon. In zelda, it's collecting items. Hearts, rupees etc.. aren't items. Though, heart container is discutable.
Depends. One rupee is required for the Ganon-killing arrow, but then he could just go back a couple rooms and kill an enemy to get it...<_<
Yeah, I overlooked that, so 254 would suffice.
Phil wrote:
In zelda, it's collecting items. Hearts, rupees etc.. aren't items. Though, heart container is discutable.
The designers of LoZ didn't include any sort of in-game counter to show progress, so we might as well stop arguing about what constitutes 100%. It's clear that we won't convince each other.
The designers of LoZ didn't include any sort of in-game counter to show progress, so we might as well stop arguing about what constitutes 100%. It's clear that we won't convince each other.
Well, let's be clear. For example, someone who beat Levels 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 clearly has more percentage of the game done than someone who only got the wooden sword, right? We know this even though the game designers don't have a numeric representation of game completition. Wow, that's an interesting typo. You compete to be complete.
What maybe you mean is that after a certain point in game completion determining who is more complete is difficult/ambiguous/subject/uncertain.
Ramzi: My statement was restricted only to this bickering about the definition of what constitutes 100%. Yes, someone who has beaten levels 1-5 has completed more of the game than someone who has just gotten the wooden sword.
For what it's worth, this is the 100% definition of LoZ on SDA, as I've determined through conversation with mikwuyma and radix:
All heart containers
Magical Sword
Magical Shield
Red Ring
Red Candle
Bow and Silver Arrow
Magic Wand
Magic Book
Magic Key
Magic Boomerang
Whistle
Raft
Ladder
Both bomb upgrades
Power Bracelet
Notice that the letter is not required as it just leads to the potions, which are only collectable items and don't improve character abilities. I don't believe the enemy bait would be necessary either if it weren't required for the dungeons. I personally believe that collecting the letter should be required, but I haven't decided on whether showing it to the old woman or buying a potion (red or blue) should be necessary.
Well, the Start menu does show you how many Triforce pieces you have!
Using the start menu as the criteria for completion, a person should definitely finish with more hearts (filled in), more rupees, the meat, and the red potion.
I mean, if you never get the letter, and you never re-get the meat, you have two blank spaces in your start menu. And this is contrary to the SDA definition, apparently.
Edit: Well, I sort of like this. We could either have arbitrary definitions of 100%, or we can have objective definitions based upon some arbitrary standard. For example, if our arbitrary standard is what is visible from the start menu, then the things I mentioned above are true. If our arbitrary standard is "dungeon items" then the letter never needs to be collected.
Personally, my standard would be the UNION of the set of unchangeable things and the set of "preferable" items. What I mean, is... When you burn a tree, for example, you can never unburn the tree. However, if you have the red potion, you can drink it, have the blue potion, drink it, have the letter. And you can repeat that constantly, unlike the tree where your action is not repeatable. In this case, the red potion is better because it is stronger than the blue potion and the letter just by implication.
I agree that 100% means having a complete start menu when you reach Zelda. This means all items, all heartscontainers and all hearts filled. All 16 bombs, all 255 rupees (yes, you can and must go back after fighting Ganon). I don't think you can get a red potion without taking the map to the old lady. If you pick the red potion instead of a heartcontainer, you can't get all heart containers anymore, so you will have to get the map and stuff. Even though it's not on the item screen, I do think a big shield should also be collected for 100%.
I don't think that stuff that gets replaced or isn't visible should be collected. This means items as white sword (wooden sword :P), wooden boomerang, dungeon maps, compasses and stuff aren't needed. I don't know who mentioned that everything in the overworld should be burned, and every cave bombed... but I don't even remotely see for what purpose this should be done.
I don't think that stuff that gets replaced or isn't visible should be collected. This means items as white sword (wooden sword :P), wooden boomerang, dungeon maps, compasses and stuff aren't needed. I don't know who mentioned that everything in the overworld should be burned, and every cave bombed... but I don't even remotely see for what purpose this should be done.
It was me. Here's my line of reasoning. If 100% is perfect and objective, there should only be one unique binary for a save file. That is, if two save files have very different binaries, which one is better than the other? If you skip getting, for example, the white sword, it will still be marked as incomplete. I mean, at that time you could still go back and get it, and the binary would change. But had you gotten it before, you cannot change the binary. This was my notion of irreversible.
Of course, then, there are the exceptions. What name entered is "better"? What slot should the save file be in? Why should we even worry about the first quest when the start of the second quest erases all your effort? For these reasons I would have to add constraints. For example, preference constraints. Suppose in Ocarina of Time I wanted to have a perfect save file. Should I have 4 bottles of fairies, or 4 bottles of blue potions? Well, blue potions refill all life and magic, but fairies refill all life after you die. So which is better? I feel that since this is subjective (and also alterable), it doesn't matter. I also feel that the name of the Zelda 1 file is subjective, although unalterable.
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1934
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
255 rupees for 100%?....
That must be the lamest I ever heard. It's like having full energy in Metroid 1 and 2 for 100%, as it isn't displayed that you have 100% items.
Same stupid thing...
The list Snorlax posted is the one and only list. Other stuff are just bullshit talk.
I completely disagree with the, 100% = "a complete start menu". If it's the case, then a 100% run of Final Fantasya 4 for example is having a max out time, energy refilled, certain characters shown etc...
In my opinion, 100% should only be possible with games which show you the percentage OR where it's obviously '100%'.
With this game, everyone has another opinion (whether collecting 255 rupees or all hearts filled should be included or the letter-thing) and things become tricky.
Paused: Do you mean 100% as all items collected or 100% as finding secrets and such?
Like I say, do not know the game like the back of my hand, so take what I say with a grain of salt...
Short/Vague answer:
I meant what was ever most practical and most entertaining. IMO that is All items. (i.e All Sub items, Heart pieces and Upgrades.)
Long/Waffle filled Answer:
I think all Heart Containers is a given. All upgrades too. The only sub item up for discussion seems to be the letter/potion. I believe they should be collected too, IMO they are no less important than the bottles in OoT, and you would never say they were not needed in 100%.
Map/Compasses are debatable, and I have no strong feelings either way.
All bushes burnt/Secrets found, is in my mind not needed. (Probs for the same reasons everyone else has said...)
Max money, whilst I can see where you are coming from if you say yes, is pointless in my mind. The need to go backwards after killing Ganon (Or was it Gannon in this one?) to pick up one Rupee just seems silly.
Its kinda like the speed vs entertainment debate, but boiled down to its basic principals. One is quantitative, one qualitative. Is all you want from 100% all the code values hidden in the game to be maxed so it is an unarguable fact that everything in the game is complete?
But when it comes down to it, due to the fact 100% are my favorite, I would be happy with either. It just seems more likely that this will be done if the more pratical one is the option picked.
Wow... did nt expect this discussion from my humble suggestion.
It's just that 100% start menu is the only thing that doesn't make the goal completely arbitrary to me. If each item is judged individually, you will run into disagreement no matter what. The list snorlax posted for instance is strange to me. You do have to get the bomb upgrades, which is essentially "can keep more bombs". But you don't need to have a potion, which is essentially "can keep more health". In that sense, the potion is no different than a ring.
Tompa wrote:
It IS obvious what should be counted as 100% in this game. It's just that some people are just too stupid to get it.
Playing Zelda 1 tonight, I realized that what initially attracted me to this site wasn't the concept of speed, but the entertaining nature of it. I have a "safe route" for playing Zelda 1, that has made the game too easy. So I decided to just play the game tonight, to have fun. And I came up with something that might hopefully spark activity of the game on TAS Videos.
Rules:
No game overs.
Must keep wooden sword.
No overworld hearts or potions.
Must visit every room on every dungeon map.
Must kill every bad guy whenever they are present in a dungeon room.
The levels must be completed in order.
The process of TASing Zelda 1 is Herculean because of the number of different level routes, warping options, upgrade choices, money, and shop visiting.
Playing this way seems more natural, or more like someone who wasn't an expert of the game might play. (They don't know where overworld hearts or sword upgrades are, etc.)
By taking away all the permutations of the game with these constraints, we have a game which is really more in the spirit of Zelda than our current TAS of it.
And as the rules are specified, and the game is simpler, this should promote more competition in tas development.
By taking away all the permutations of the game with these constraints, we have a game which is really more in the spirit of Zelda than our current TAS of it.
Among my other disagreements with you, I don't think a good TAS == following the spirit of the game. My favorite TASes kill the spirit and bury it in the backyard. The current LoZ movie does this with particular flair. Perhaps I am falling for a joke?
