Post subject: New movie flag has been added: Fastest Completion
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http://tasvideos.org/FastestCompletion.html Since this goal is a fundamental one for speedrunning in general, and it tightly relates to our rules, and the audience likes to know this information, this flag is now a reality. The icon for it will be this whenever Nach adds it to the site: Suggest rules clarifications and movies to flag.
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Note that since the tag was just recently added, there's still more than a thousand movies to flag, so there's no sense in listing literally any candidate for the flag. However, if you feel a movie was specifically overlooked, or if a movie merits discussion in some way as to whether it qualifies, then feel free to post about it. Also, anyone interested in volunteering for giving movies the fastest completion flag for qualified movies may also post here or contact an admin or assistant, in order to give them a Vested Editor role.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Post subject: Re: New movie flag has been added: Fastest Completion
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Precisely this was discussed many times years ago. I'm glad it's finally been implemented.
feos wrote:
Suggest rules clarifications and movies to flag.
Back when this was discussed, the question arose whether "fastest completion" means that absolutely anything goes, no matter what. In other words, even if the run just jumps from the main menu to the end credits in a fraction of a second (as has been demonstrated to be possible, even with console verification, at least in one case), literally showing no gameplay (or even the main menu itself) at all. Has this question been resolved with a simple "yes", or are there some more complex criteria? I suppose that it's lucky this can only be done very rarely. (OTOH, this might change in the future. Back when ACE was a completely new discovery one would have thought that it would be limited to just a few games, but more and more games are being discovered to be "ACEable", so it's not possible to say how common any of this might become with time... I'd just hate to see the list of "fastest completion" to be full of 0.5-second runs that do nothing else than to show the end credits.)
Post subject: Re: New movie flag has been added: Fastest Completion
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Warp wrote:
Precisely this was discussed many times years ago. I'm glad it's finally been implemented.
The first suggestion for this flag was 4 years ago:
I can draw a movie flag for "fastest branch" in a few minutes, and all will be happy: all who want to know the fastest one would instantly know it, all who want to know the conditions would see it in the labels.
Recently, after this happened, and adelikat expressed that he honestly does not like how we dropped the blank label that used to equal any%, I felt that we have to give people who need this some helping hand.
Warp wrote:
Back when this was discussed, the question arose whether "fastest completion" means that absolutely anything goes, no matter what. In other words, even if the run just jumps from the main menu to the end credits in a fraction of a second (as has been demonstrated to be possible, even with console verification, at least in one case), literally showing no gameplay (or even the main menu itself) at all. Has this question been resolved with a simple "yes", or are there some more complex criteria?
If you look at the RTA community, they have several "any%" branches, distinguished by some limitation or feature, for example "any%, no major skips". This happens because they explicitly use the very term "any%" in their branches, and we don't. So for them it has to be something descriptive (a string), and for us it's just a flag (a boolean). We use branch labels for brief indication of what to expect from a movie, and "any%" as "fastest completion" has been completely disregarded (no offense Nach, we all basically agreed with you there). Ever since then I've been playing with this idea every so often, and my most fundamental solution was this: We have an entire movie tier dedicated to exactly this: a clear and obvious definition of the "fastest completion" branch. It happens to have different labels and movie classes, because they are used for different purposes, but we still depend on being able to figure out what a vaultable any% branch for any given game is. Without knowing this, we won't be able to decide whether some boring movie has to be accepted to Vault or rejected. So TASVideos does use a certain definition of any%/fastest completion. Therefore we can document it. Therefore we can explicitly use it for the purpose people wanted the blank branch for: indication of a clear and obvious binary thing that speedrunning is all about. The only definition for this flag that we can productively use is the one we're already using when judging movies: it should belong to every vaultable branch that is not "full completion" (which is another single vaultable branch. And here we just note that if several branches are fundamentally allowed for Vault aside from "full completion", they all belong to any%. Good thing we have descriptive branch labels: when someone sees 2 branches for a given game have this flag, they also see what the difference is by simply looking at the labels. It was a very good idea to keep those labels in official movie names. [3185] NES Inversion by MESHUGGAH & jhztfs in 05:18.91 [3187] NES Inversion "Extra world" by MESHUGGAH & jhztfs in 01:16.44 [3271] SNES Prince of Persia by Challenger & Odongdong in 33:31.20 [3670] SNES Prince of Persia "Training mode" by Challenger in 03:31.10 Two vaulable movies distinguished by the region. God this is so neat! [1302] NES EarthBound Beginnings (Prototype) by Nitrodon in 47:56.08 [3714] NES EarthBound Beginnings (Japan) "warp glitch" by chatterbox in 23:07.85 To finally answer to your question, since avoiding things like a "game end glitch" for games where it's possible is not vaultable, we can't use such a flag for them. And that is our borderline that is inherent to our definition of any%, which is in turn inherent to our definition of the Vault tier (which I'd still love to be renamed to Coins).
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Post subject: Re: New movie flag has been added: Fastest Completion
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feos wrote:
To finally answer to your question, since avoiding things like a "game end glitch" for games where it's possible is not vaultable, we can't use such a flag for them. And that is our borderline that is inherent to your definition of any%, which is in turn inherent to our definition of the Vault tier (which I'd still love to be renamed to Coins).
I'm a bit confused. It's unclear to me what exact rules are in place to determine what is vaultable (as "any%") and what isn't. You mention "avoiding things like a game end glitch for games where it's possible", but that's one example, not a complete set of rules. Is the situation more like "by default the fastest possible completion is any%-vaultable / fastest completion, with a small amount of exceptions, to be decided individually by the judges on a game-by-game basis"? (I'm not opposing that principle, just asking if it is the principle.)
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Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Look at this cute table oh man this is so cool.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Post subject: Re: New movie flag has been added: Fastest Completion
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feos wrote:
To finally answer to your question, since avoiding things like a "game end glitch" for games where it's possible is not vaultable, we can't use such a flag for them. And that is our borderline that is inherent to your definition of any%, which is in turn inherent to our definition of the Vault tier (which I'd still love to be renamed to Coins).
This submission was unacceplable due to the triviality of its execution. The problem is that we already have a published movie that beats the game without making use of the glitch from the above mentioned submission. Should the current publication be flagged as fastest completion or not?
my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: thunderaxe31 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"
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If we complete this game even faster by using this glitch, it will stop being related to our fundamental speedrunning rules. So the current movie is fastest completion, and it is a valid publication for this game! And if a movie avoiding the glitch is faster, it will obsolete it for real.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Post subject: Re: New movie flag has been added: Fastest Completion
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Warp wrote:
Is the situation more like "by default the fastest possible completion is any%-vaultable / fastest completion, with a small amount of exceptions, to be decided individually by the judges on a game-by-game basis"?
My question remains unanswered, and I'm still confused.
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Even after having read the rules added to the page?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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feos wrote:
Even after having read the rules added to the page?
You mean this page? http://tasvideos.org/FastestCompletion.html I see nothing that would disqualify a game that jumps from the very start to the end credits in a fraction of a second, so am I assumed that will be considered the fastest completion?
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Correct.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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feos wrote:
Correct.
Well, I just hope it doesn't become widespread. Would hate to see half the list of fastest completions filled with half-second runs that do not show anything of the game.
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It won't be widespread, because when you know how to do such runs, at some point the concept gets old and you aren't interested in making more and more submissions of it.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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http://tasvideos.org/3410M.html Does this TAS qualify for fastest completion? The highest difficulty in GoldenEye Wii (called 007 Classic) adds additional objectives that need to be completed. The fastest way to complete the game from start to finish is by playing on the easiest difficulty since you don't have to do those extra objectives. But on the other hand, this TAS does complete the game as fast as possible, just on a higher difficulty that takes a little longer. Also, would this TAS qualify for vault? Edit: I should also mention that I do plan on making a TAS on the easiest difficulty one day, since the lack of additional objectives means that a lot of really cool glitches can be done to skip parts of the game. If I made a TAS on that difficulty and it were published here (along with an updated 007 Classic TAS), would both of them have the "fastest completion" flag? Both TASes would have the goal of beating the game as fast as possible, just on different difficulties that make the runs different lengths.
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Movies that use secret codes to unlock new characters, game modes, level sets or other entirely new content not obtained during regular play and not available from the start, are not eligible for this category.
Dashed my hopes for that secret Denjuu TF2 TAS. rip A different question to avoid future drama, if there's a run in vault right now, and it uses a slower difficulty, am I allowed to obsolete it with a lower difficulty aiming solely for speed, no questions asked? How about moons+? Similarly, anything goes for languages right? Like use the fastest language if possible is fine? Along with naming all characters "a" or something if it ends up faster? Also this is talking about real time right? Edit: Not trying to start drama, just want to clarify for future runs personally. Edit2: I would really love to see that SMB3 completed in 0 seconds that was done during a TASBot session in GTQ that one time submitted with this flag, regarding what Warp said. I'm really curious how many games can have this done.
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This flag doesn't have any impact on our existing rules. Things like language are already covered by the rules.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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FitterSpace wrote:
http://tasvideos.org/3410M.html Does this TAS qualify for fastest completion? The highest difficulty in GoldenEye Wii (called 007 Classic) adds additional objectives that need to be completed. The fastest way to complete the game from start to finish is by playing on the easiest difficulty since you don't have to do those extra objectives. But on the other hand, this TAS does complete the game as fast as possible, just on a higher difficulty that takes a little longer. Also, would this TAS qualify for vault? Edit: I should also mention that I do plan on making a TAS on the easiest difficulty one day, since the lack of additional objectives means that a lot of really cool glitches can be done to skip parts of the game. If I made a TAS on that difficulty and it were published here (along with an updated 007 Classic TAS), would both of them have the "fastest completion" flag? Both TASes would have the goal of beating the game as fast as possible, just on different difficulties that make the runs different lengths.
Hard difficulty is already vaultable. And preferable in general. Especially if it makes the movie more challenging and more entertaining. If you make one on easier difficulty, it might be accepted to Moons if it's different enough and entertaining enough, but if it's boring, there's actually a rejection chance. It's only faster because the challenge has been reduced, and the harder challenge is already there. As for the flag for when they are both in Moons, I don't have a clear answer just yet. Can't guarantee they both get accepted. As for unlockable level sets, they are allowed for Vault, see the clarified rules: http://tasvideos.org/MovieRules.html#Vault_2
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Sorry. Someone's going to have to explain to me why Sonic is there. Sonic is slower when you're' aiming for IGT (which it's marked as such) than not aiming for it. And it's a proven case: Link to video (This is showing a case with Sonic 2 SMS, but it applies to all versions)
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It still aims for fastest time, it just uses a different metric for timing.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Spikestuff wrote:
Sorry. Someone's going to have to explain to me why Sonic is there. Sonic is slower when you're' aiming for IGT (which it's marked as such) than not aiming for it.
Aims for ingame time is not a class that is ineligible for this list.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Ok then. Thanks for that.
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There are some Sonic games that you can skip the score timing by pressing any button, for Example: Sonic mania, Adventures, Heroes, all modern games and even Genesis rom hacks. But still aims for fastest completion, but in-game time.
You can see more TASes on my youtube channel
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jlun2 wrote:
Edit2: I would really love to see that SMB3 completed in 0 seconds that was done during a TASBot session in GTQ that one time submitted with this flag, regarding what Warp said.
It's one thing to see it. Another thing is whether it should be considered the "official" fastest completion (which I interpret to mean that it's the official, or semi-official, "world record" tool-assisted speedrun of the game). Somebody might be thrilled to see an awesome tool-assisted speedrun of the game, full of incredible superhuman tricks and impossible skill, close calls, and so on... and all he gets is a 0-second run that just shows the end credits. Yay. And a wall of technical text if he wants to find out what's happening.