Submission Text Full Submission Page

Introduction

Another pokesub from me, this time on the Coin Case TAS. This run is ~40 seconds faster than the previous TAS (accounting for the lack of a BIOS on the previous TAS).

Emulator used: Bizhawk 2.4.2

  • CGB in GBA is enabled for console verification.

Categories

  • Forgoes save data corruption
  • Executes arbitrary code
  • Heavy luck manipulation

About the run

Version Choice

Gold and Silver are mostly the same, the only relevant difference being that Silver’s title screen loads 2 frames slower. Silver was used in the previous TAS since the TID used was faster to manip on that version, however, this run manips a different TID, and Gold happens to be able to manipulate it faster.

Route

Most of the route pre-Coin Case is identical to my glitchless submission, with some differences:
  • TID is manipulated to be F8F7; D8F7 also works, but F8F7 was much faster to manipulate.
  • Time is set to the default time, we don’t have to catch a Wooper here, so no need to set it to morning.
  • The player is named “J”. Purely an artistic choice, there is no extra cost to naming the character J.
  • Cyndaquil’s DVs are manipulated to be F8AF, nothing too different really, still does the job.
  • Cyndaquil is named “B”. Again, another artistic choice, with no extra cost.
  • Bellsprout is caught on Route 31. We need a filler Pokemon for the Coin Case and Bellsprout is the best since we have to encounter it anyways. It is not nicknamed, as its name will only appear 2 times in the run.
  • The Egg’s DVs are manipulated to be 3887. This is important later on for the ACE bootstrap.
  • Burn strats are completely avoided. Turns out it was actually a bit slower to use burns to save turns (loses ~3 seconds overall).
    • Russel’s level 6 Geodude is now taken out with two 1/39 non-crit Embers.
    • The Koffing from the last Rocket grunt is now taken out with a 1/39 non-crit and a high roll non-crit Ember.
    • Rival 2’s Croconaw is now taken out by three 1/39 Tackle crits and one 1/39 Tackle non-crit.
  • Apparently, Amy & May's Ledyba can be KO'd by a Tackle crit, which saves a bit of time over Ember.
  • Tackle is swapped to the third slot on Rival 2. Tackle needs to be in the third slot for the ACE bootstrap to work, and switching moves in battle is a lot faster than out of battle.
  • Cut is taught to Bellsprout. Bellsprout has empty move slots, so it is fastest if we teach Cut to it.
  • Of course, since we’re just going to be glitching with the Coin Case, no need to catch Abra or get the bike, just go underground, defeat the 1 trainer in the way, then Coin Case away.

Coin Case Glitch Improvements

The Coin Case glitch setup is pretty much the same until we reach party data. The previous TAS used a ld hl,D900 and jp hl to jump to box names. This TAS instead uses a ld hl,F86C and rst 30 to jump to box names. rst 30 is really just a 1 byte call to 0030, which corresponds to:
ld l,a
pop de
jp hl
The egg’s DVs are manipulated to correspond to jr c,87 instruction, which will make a relative jump backwards to right before Quilava’s data (there are some other DVs that work too for this). Quilava’s species ID, which corresponds to a sbc h opcode, will be executed, and this will make a = B9. This will make the rst 30 jump to F8B9, which is a little before box names.
Since we jump to the beginning of box names, we don’t have to scroll downwards to boxes 7-8 like the previous TAS. This, however, raises an issue, as we cannot plant our joypad input in the box 1 terminator, due to character restrictions. We can however plant our input in box 2’s terminator, so we can simply split the program into 3 box names. This is still much faster than scrolling down to boxes 7-8, so it’s an improvement nonetheless. The program is written like this:
BytesInstructionComment
Box 1
fa a6 ffld a,(ffa6)Reads current joypad inputs into a
fe 50cp $50We don’t want the terminator executed, so we eat it with a cp
00 x4nop x4Slide down to box 2
Box 2
aaxor dd stores last joypad input: find out differences to current input
ea d0 f8ld (f8d0),aWrite difference; will be executed as opcode later in the next cycle
aaxor dRestore current joypad input value
f5push afCopy current joypad input from a...
d1pop de... to d (store it as last joypad input)
f1pop afRestore a and f from the previous cycle
(f8d0)(any)Execute opcode written earlier this cycle
Box 3
f5push afSave a and f for next cycle
b6or (hl)Clears carry flag, needed for the jump
d2 b9 f8jp nc, f8b9Loop back to right before Box 1; carry will never be set
The input payload can be found here. It’s fairly similar to MrWint’s payload, with a few improvements, namely putting our warp data next to the player’s coordinates, and using the game’s auto-input system to talk to Red, so we can simply let the game beat itself.

Nerd Stuff

I used the same lua in my Pokemon Silver TAS to make this TAS, it can be found here.
Also, for nerds, here is an encode using the lua:
I also used a bot to find the needed trainer ID, my bot (which is heavily based on the RTA TID bot) can be found here.

Console Verification

Tikevin was able to console verify this TAS, the stream for it can be found here.
As a note, since the run is just ~30 minutes, RTC almost never becomes an issue for console sync.
Also, for publication, please use the Libretro GBC palette, that palette is the best.

Memory: Judging
Memory: The execution in this run seems to be very good but there’s major problems with the goal.
The run mimics the glitchless run with some minor route deviations until it gets the coin case to end the game. You look at bellsprout, then at the coin case, and then you’re at red and the game is over. It’s not a visually exciting glitch by game end glitch standards, nor are there any sort of lesser glitches leading up to that one. When discussing the submission with others, I realized the glitch had left such little of an impression on me that I forgot what it looked like and had to rewatch it to remind myself. You might as well just watch like 30 minutes of the glitchless run go “ok I’m done” and then skip to the end of the video. This is the kind of glitch that would make better for a neat youtube video solely dedicated to it than part of a dedicated TAS. The audience reaction wasn’t really great either and the ratings on the published run are less than stellar.
Additionally it is conceptually similar to the save glitch branch. Ultimately both runs aim to use a glitch to directly trigger game end as quickly as possible. The difference between them is that the save glitch branch abuses a mid-save reset to beat the game much faster, whereas this one avoids mid-save resets and performs the coin case glitch (which is a form of Arbitrary Code Execution) a bit later into the game. While Coin Case Glitch is about 26 minutes longer, this is similar to Super Mario Bros. 3 where a much longer run was obsoleted by a much shorter one. The difference in runs here ultimately comes down to the precise “attack vector” to perform the game end glitch, which imo is not an especially compelling difference for a casual audience. One could argue about the legitimacy of mid-save resets, but TASVideos has allowed them for a long time. While the specific method of save glitch used in TASes is hard to verify as being possible, it is known that one can reach game end through save glitch even in real time play. Additionally, save glitches are possible on all versions of Gen 2, meaning that the faster strategy is not locked out of versions.
In my eyes this goal definition is quite flimsy. If the goal is no mid-save reset, what happens if a run that doesn’t use save glitches is faster than the save glitch branch? Would it obsolete both this run and the other? We also have never really made any distinction between mid-save reset and not before, especially when Arbitrary Code Execution enters the picture. If that’s not the goal, is the goal of this run to use specifically the coin case glitch? In that case, wouldn’t runs that use a similar game end glitch setup that isn’t the coin case be unable to obsolete this one?
It seems the Pokemon RTA community has actually came to a similar conclusion, only listing any% and any% glitchless as major categories, whereas no save corruption is only listed under category extensions.
For these reasons, I think allowing the previous Coin Case run to remain unobsoleted was a mistake, and we should correctly have it obsoleted by the save glitch branch. We may revisit this in the future if rules changes occur but for now...


Invariel
He/Him
Editor, Site Developer, Player (171)
Joined: 8/11/2011
Posts: 539
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Just making sure. :)
I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
TiKevin83
He/Him
Ambassador, Moderator, Site Developer, Player (155)
Joined: 3/17/2018
Posts: 358
Location: Holland, MI
Samsara wrote:
Memory wrote:
1. I don't think CCG is even that well received.
Currently published run has a 6.6 entertainment rating from 14 votes, this submission has only received 8 total votes (with one meh), and as far as I've seen, the only people who are defending the branch's existence are people already in the community, and I don't think an individual game's community should determine whether or not it gets to defy a general site's rules. As for the thing about gameplay differences, I'm going to watch glitchless and this submission at the same time and see if there's really any reason to show(coin)case this run in terms of different content. Will post notes/findings in some amount of time.
I don't think this problem of games with multiple exploits that have speedruns worth TASing is unique to the Pokemon community. For example, I would expect Ocarina of Time TASers to be interested in both Any% and No Wrong Warp. Those runs are much more different than the branches of Gold/Silver, but the entertainment value issues are a separate, valid question. I would suggest a deficiency in the rules more broadly and not an exception for Pokemon with respect to multiple movies that use memory corruprion.
Samsara
She/They
Senior Judge, Site Admin, Expert player (2238)
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2822
Location: Northern California
There's a fundamental difference between "this run uses a massively game breaking glitch and this one doesn't" (OoT Any% VS No Wrong Warp) and "this run uses arbitrary code execution, and so does this one but it takes almost a half hour longer" (Save glitch VS CCG). A more accurate comparison would be a hypothetical situation where someone submits an OoT any% run that, say, wrong warps straight from Link's house to the tower collapse. Would you ask for the current run to remain published as well, despite the fact that this hypothetical run is a direct improvement using a much faster setup for the same payoff? I know there's ACE in OoT now, just bear with me here.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family. Now infrequently posting on Bluesky
warmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Editor, Player (44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1029
For what it's worth, I think the fundamental difference between reset-during-save runs and the Coin Case run is one of legitimacy. The Coin Case glitch is, IMO, obviously legitimate, and it is the fastest category which is obviously legitimate. Meanwhile, reset-during-save glitches are more debatable with respect to legitimacy, as they cannot be accessed entirely using controller input. (In a way, this defeats the main goal of a TAS, which is to beat a game entirely with controller input, no cheating or hardware modification or anything involved.) If I remember correctly, Pokémon disables the reset chord (A+B+Start+Select) during a save, thus the only way to get a save-glitched run is to cut the power to the console (e.g. using the physical power switch on a Game Boy Color). The game also outright tells you that doing this is a bad idea, implying thtat it can corrupt the game. So I don't think the "save glitch" is actually a glitch at all. It isn't something that the programmers failed to think about, and it isn't something that exploits a mistake that they made when programming. It's basically a case of using the game's power switch (not the controller) in a way that the developers were aware was possible, were aware could break the game, but were also aware that they couldn't guard against. If anything, it's an exploit of the console rather than the game (because the console gives the game no way to override the behaviour of the power switch). TASvideos has historically allowed runs that rely on oddly timed physical resets, but there's a case to be made that it shouldn't (and to me, it isn't interesting to see a game being beaten like that, because it's basically an exploit that I would expect to exist in any given game because there's only a limited amount a game can do about unless it greatly increases its SRAM usage). That argues that "fastest run without abusing physical resets" should be a legitimate category, probably more so than the fastest run that does. For what it's worth, the category of this run should be "no reset during save", "controller input only", or something similar. What matters in terms of obsoletion is not which glitches are used, but which glitches are not used.
Site Admin, Skilled player (1254)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
ais523 wrote:
For what it's worth, I think the fundamental difference between reset-during-save runs and the Coin Case run is one of legitimacy. The Coin Case glitch is, IMO, obviously legitimate, and it is the fastest category which is obviously legitimate. Meanwhile, reset-during-save glitches are more debatable with respect to legitimacy, as they cannot be accessed entirely using controller input. (In a way, this defeats the main goal of a TAS, which is to beat a game entirely with controller input, no cheating or hardware modification or anything involved.) If I remember correctly, Pokémon disables the reset chord (A+B+Start+Select) during a save, thus the only way to get a save-glitched run is to cut the power to the console (e.g. using the physical power switch on a Game Boy Color). The game also outright tells you that doing this is a bad idea, implying thtat it can corrupt the game. So I don't think the "save glitch" is actually a glitch at all. It isn't something that the programmers failed to think about, and it isn't something that exploits a mistake that they made when programming. It's basically a case of using the game's power switch (not the controller) in a way that the developers were aware was possible, were aware could break the game, but were also aware that they couldn't guard against. If anything, it's an exploit of the console rather than the game (because the console gives the game no way to override the behaviour of the power switch). TASvideos has historically allowed runs that rely on oddly timed physical resets, but there's a case to be made that it shouldn't (and to me, it isn't interesting to see a game being beaten like that, because it's basically an exploit that I would expect to exist in any given game because there's only a limited amount a game can do about unless it greatly increases its SRAM usage). That argues that "fastest run without abusing physical resets" should be a legitimate category, probably more so than the fastest run that does.
Legitimacy is a valid reason to like/prefer a certain branch, but aside from personal preference it should also be entertaining with what it represents. Do you find this movie entertaining?
ais523 wrote:
For what it's worth, the category of this run should be "no reset during save", "controller input only", or something similar. What matters in terms of obsoletion is not which glitches are used, but which glitches are not used.
That wouldn't highlight its difference from the full run though. Branch labels are used to indicate what's unique about a given branch, or what explicit in-game feature it showcases (like "2 players").
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Editor, Player (44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1029
Ah, in that case I think "game end glitch, no reset during save" would be the best description of the category in terms of obsoletion, but maybe not in terms of what a viewer should expect. In terms of entertainment, I haven't watched this specific run, but I'm aware of the category in general (and have seen runs of it), and don't think it has all that much to add compared to a glitchless run; the two start very similarly, so any additional entertainment has to come from the glitch itself. I find knowing the technical details behind these glitches to be interesting, but because the setup for this glitch is (in effect) very straightforward, the main interest typically comes from the bootstrap and how it's entered. That isn't something that can easily be seen from an encode, and based on the submission text, it's somewhat simpler than it would be for a typical ACE glitch. In general, though, the TASvideos format is not very good at handling categories which have a lot of gameplay in common. If you were making a video to show off this glitch, rather than to show off a completion of the game, it'd probably highlight the parts of the run that differed from normal play rather than showing the whole thing. It should be noted that in most cases I derive more entertainment from submission text than from an encode anyway, which tends to make the question in the poll hard to answer ("movie" is ambiguous).
Site Admin, Skilled player (1254)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
The full run doesn't reset during save either, and that's not an explicit in-game feature, so it should only be mentioned if all branches have the save reset except one.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Memory
She/Her
Site Admin, Skilled player (1556)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1765
Location: Dumpster
I'd like to state that I have a similar opinion on entertainment here to that of Samsara. There is no real entertainment to be derived from this submission that cannot be obtained from watching the glitchless run. You'd think the glitch would hold some appeal but I literally forgot what it looked like immediately after having watched the run and upon rewatching I don't think it's interesting to look at. The main difference is that it's shorter, which fails the guideline of "Keep the number of different branches per game minimal. A run for a proposed new branch for a game should offer compelling differences relative to previously published runs of that game."
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Emulator Coder, Judge, Experienced player (729)
Joined: 2/26/2020
Posts: 779
Location: California
ais523 wrote:
If I remember correctly, Pokémon disables the reset chord (A+B+Start+Select) during a save, thus the only way to get a save-glitched run is to cut the power to the console (e.g. using the physical power switch on a Game Boy Color). The game also outright tells you that doing this is a bad idea, implying thtat it can corrupt the game.
Correct, the game will disable soft resets until the save message is done (technically not the save itself, since the save message has artificial delay put into it, it actually only takes a few frames for the game to actually save the game, 90% of the save message doesn't have any saving in it). Also, technically, you don't technically need to use a power switch per se. The Gameboy Player (which is what is used for RTA runs, for console verification, and is the de facto console used for reference) has a hard reset combo on the Gamecube Controller, and the Reset button on the Gamecube also hard resets the Gameboy Player.
ais523 wrote:
It's basically a case of using the game's power switch (not the controller) in a way that the developers were aware was possible, were aware could break the game, but were also aware that they couldn't guard against.
Somewhat disagree with this. Yes, they can't physically stop the player from hard resetting the console, but they can (attempt) to prevent corruption, with the simple thing called a checksum. If the game sees the main checksum is incorrect, it will load the backup save (assuming the backup save's checksum is also valid, if that is also somehow invalid too, then the game will refuse to load the save altogether). So a TAS has to specifically craft save data so the checksums collide after save corruption, to trick the game into thinking you didn't corrupt the save. (now just to be clear, the old cloning glitch works regardless of the checksum since the devs only bothered to checksum main data, and box data is not protected by a checksum at all. this glitch of course is not used in neither the Crystal save glitch TAS nor the current RTA Crystal WR, both of which use checksum collision) But overall I do get what you mean by legitimacy, and I'll add another thing to the legitimacy question, since the save glitches TASes use checksum collision, they also need to use a subframe reset. Particularly, my submission requires a reset that only has about a 60 microsecond window to hit. While this might seem okay on face value, you then realize we can't programmatically reset the console, and the reset has to be done by a human... To be clear, the RTA WR of Crystal had a much bigger window to hit, about 3 milliseconds, which is fairly viable for a human to hit. 60 microseconds is insanely small, it's probably possible to hit, but you might as well just flash the expected save data to the cart after the reset for a possible console verification than spend many days to hit that tiny window. Which even then that is flawed because RTC can possibly just screw you over. So I'd find it somewhat unlikely that the save glitch TAS can be console verified (which I assume would be the objective measure to what's legitimate), at most in theory it should be possible.
Site Admin, Skilled player (1254)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
CasualPokePlayer wrote:
But overall I do get what you mean by legitimacy, and I'll add another thing to the legitimacy question, since the save glitches TASes use checksum collision, they also need to use a subframe reset. Particularly, my submission requires a reset that only has about a 60 microsecond window to hit. While this might seem okay on face value, you then realize we can't programmatically reset the console, and the reset has to be done by a human... To be clear, the RTA WR of Crystal had a much bigger window to hit, about 3 milliseconds, which is fairly viable for a human to hit. 60 microseconds is insanely small, it's probably possible to hit, but you might as well just flash the expected save data to the cart after the reset for a possible console verification than spend many days to hit that tiny window. Which even then that is flawed because RTC can possibly just screw you over. So I'd find it somewhat unlikely that the save glitch TAS can be console verified (which I assume would be the objective measure to what's legitimate), at most in theory it should be possible.
Play games that are emulated well wrote:
The goal of our movies is to show what could theoretically be done on a real console.
Post #465348 If the problem with console verification is finding the correct timing for the same exact technique, it's legitimate. If it relies on something that's not emulated correctly, and isn't possible in principle, then it's banned altogether. If we have made an educated assumption that save glitch should work on console if done right, then all movies using that technique are equally legitimate. It's not "we'd have to tweak the timings of this event to get it run on console, therefore it's not really valid, therefore we need a truly valid technique in Moons while this half-valid one is in Vault". We need CCG in Moons only if it's entertaining on its own.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Editor, Player (44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1029
feos wrote:
The full run doesn't reset during save either, and that's not an explicit in-game feature, so it should only be mentioned if all branches have the save reset except one.
The only reason this category exists is to avoid a reset during save, though. Resetting during a save would make the full-game run faster, if the resulting glitchy state were used for something other than immediately ending the game. However, this would presumably be disallowed due to the full-game run being, effectively, "no game end glitch", as we typically disallow suboptimal uses of glitches. So "no reset during save" is the only thing that makes this category different from the regular game-end glitch category, and it would not have an effect in any other game-completion category (because game-end glitches more generally would be banned).
Samsara
She/They
Senior Judge, Site Admin, Expert player (2238)
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2822
Location: Northern California
ais523 wrote:
The only reason this category exists is to avoid a reset during save, though.
The reason this category exists is because it was the fastest known method of ACE in Gen2 at the time of the original submission. The reason the category was KEPT alongside Crystal's "save glitch" run is, from what I can tell, simply nobody saying that it should be obsoleted, and nothing more than that. As far as I'm concerned, keeping CCG was a minor mistake that needs to be fixed, not a rule-defining precedent for how other GEG branches are published. EDIT: More specifically, it seems to have been kept based on the rule of a separate branch being entertaining enough to make it to Moons, as opposed to the actual methodology of the glitch. Given that interest/entertainment value has seemingly waned in the meantime (though I could argue it wasn't that high to begin with, but I'll leave that for another post), maybe it's less of a mistake and more of a sign of the times.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family. Now infrequently posting on Bluesky
warmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Site Admin, Skilled player (1254)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
ais523 wrote:
Resetting during a save would make the full-game run faster, if the resulting glitchy state were used for something other than immediately ending the game. However, this would presumably be disallowed due to the full-game run being, effectively, "no game end glitch", as we typically disallow suboptimal uses of glitches. So "no reset during save" is the only thing that makes this category different from the regular game-end glitch category, and it would not have an effect in any other game-completion category (because game-end glitches more generally would be banned).
http://tasvideos.org/PublisherGuidelines.html#Structure
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Editor, Player (44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1029
I guess the question is: if this run is accepted, would it be obsoleted by a hypothetical run that uses a different (faster) game-end glitch, and does not corrupt the save file? If it would be, then according to the publisher guidelines feos linked above, the correct tag would be "game end glitch, no save glitch" as that is the category for the run; the run is not defined by what it's doing, but what it's not doing. (In particular, performing the Coin Case glitch is not essential to the goal; it just happens to be the fastest way to reach it.) If it wouldn't be (meaning that the Coin Case glitch is essential to the goal), then the category would be "Coin Case glitch". I think it would/should be, though.
Site Admin, Skilled player (1254)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
The situation we're in closely resembles [1302] NES EarthBound Beginnings (Prototype) by Nitrodon in 47:56.08 which is a movie done on a newer game version than the faster, glitched, branch. And both are in Vault.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Memory
She/Her
Site Admin, Skilled player (1556)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1765
Location: Dumpster
feos wrote:
The situation we're in closely resembles [1302] NES EarthBound Beginnings (Prototype) by Nitrodon in 47:56.08 which is a movie done on a newer game version than the faster, glitched, branch. And both are in Vault.
Except there's a save glitch that is also possible on this particular version, making it unvaultable.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Site Admin, Skilled player (1254)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
I'm not saying it's a precedent, I mean that when dealing with Vault, different game version may not be a good enough reason to have runs on both versions, and maybe we should obsolete the USA run. I feel that would be consistent with what is decided for this submission.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Samsara
She/They
Senior Judge, Site Admin, Expert player (2238)
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2822
Location: Northern California
I'm actually on the fence about EB:B in general, though that's a discussion for another time, in another thread. I see the resemblance to this (coin) case, at least, though I don't think they're related enough to let one decision warrant what we do with the other. I think another good precedent that this (coin) case resembles is this submission. I rejected that submission because there was a faster GEG run out there, despite the two runs using different glitches to reach the end. Relevant quote:
This specifically aims for the fastest glitched time. The Nico TAS that's 18 seconds faster than this one (and that's not counting this submission ending input 5 minutes early, but I won't be pedantic about that) also aims for the fastest glitched time. For the purposes of this site, "game end glitch" refers to any way that the ending is reached far earlier than expected. This could be something as simple as holding two buttons on an elevator and landing somewhere, or crashing the game in a way that lets you manipulate your way to the ending, or just going up and down stairs a bunch. "Game end glitch" is exactly how it sounds: The run uses a glitch to end the game. Both this run and the Nico TAS use glitches to end the game. Therefore, they are both "game end glitch" runs. We have a separate ACE branch, but it is only used for playaround runs. Since this was treated as an improvement to the published run (thus, the fastest run) and not as an entertainment-based category, we have to treat it as such as well.
Of course, this also isn't the exact same situation: This isn't meant to be the fastest time for the game, and it is in fact the fastest time for this particular category. The problem there is that the published CCG run was meant to be the fastest time for the game, and there now exists a much faster strategy for doing so, so even though this is strictly an improvement to the CCG category, it is still not the fastest run of the overall GEG category, and as Memory pointed out (and as was stated earlier in this discussion), this isn't even the fastest possible GEG for Gold version as there's also a method of save glitching it, which would be slower than Crystal but much faster than CCG. I think there's a lot of inherent problems with adhering to precedents on TASvideos: They're never quite exact, they might not always be right, depending on the situation there might be several precedents that clearly contradict each other, and they might be "obsoleted" in and of themselves through rule changes, clarifications, and even just brand new runs coming in with entirely different rulesets. Because of that, to me, it's safer to reject this, obsolete CCG as a branch altogether through the Crystal save glitch run, and potentially revisit this run in the future when things inevitably change. Otherwise, keeping this means just another precedent that could complicate things even further down the road. ...Granted, the rejection solution is ALSO a precedent that could complicate things, but it's the less complicated of the two in my opinion! TASvideos!
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family. Now infrequently posting on Bluesky
warmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Site Admin, Skilled player (1254)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
Samsara wrote:
Sanqui wrote:
Full disclosure though that I was the one to invent the Coin Case ACE exploit and make the first RTA run, so I'm very much biased towards this category. Just putting forth my view though! :)
With all due respect, that should disqualify your opinion due to potential bias.
So far I'm seeing 3 people being entertained by this run in and of itself, 2 of them being pokemon experts. Being biased due that fact isn't a reason to disregard the yes vote, because it's meant to be subjective, but either way, even people who were entertained by this run aren't clearly saying "yes I see a lot of difference between this run, the save glitch run, and the full run, there's little to no content clash, each is unique in something obvious to an untrained eye". As ais523 said:
ais523 wrote:
In terms of entertainment, I haven't watched this specific run, but I'm aware of the category in general (and have seen runs of it), and don't think it has all that much to add compared to a glitchless run; the two start very similarly, so any additional entertainment has to come from the glitch itself. I find knowing the technical details behind these glitches to be interesting, but because the setup for this glitch is (in effect) very straightforward, the main interest typically comes from the bootstrap and how it's entered. That isn't something that can easily be seen from an encode, and based on the submission text, it's somewhat simpler than it would be for a typical ACE glitch.
Due to small amount of compelling differences compared to other branches, and little support in terms of entertainment, I don't think this branch satisfies the Moons requirements for extra branches anymore.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Samsara
She/They
Senior Judge, Site Admin, Expert player (2238)
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2822
Location: Northern California
feos wrote:
Being biased due that fact isn't a reason to disregard the yes vote, because it's meant to be subjective...
My reasoning there is explicitly due to this exact situation, and I apologize for implying it was more of a general thing. I'm not against throwing out ANY vote, yes or otherwise, due to bias, but it doesn't sit quite right with me when the person ultimately responsible for a run gives an opinion that is specifically favoring keeping that run published. It's more or less like asking the author what to do with the run, the implication of "I support the run being published because I was heavily involved in making it". Hopefully I explained that well enough.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family. Now infrequently posting on Bluesky
warmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Site Admin, Skilled player (1254)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
Yeah I don't think we're meant to blindly weigh all votes equally either, because of this bias. This is why there's a point that if only experts can appreciate a work and see the difference, then it doesn't suit the general audience.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
TASVideosGrue
They/Them
Joined: 10/1/2008
Posts: 2785
Location: The dark corners of the TASVideos server
om, nom, nom... crunchy!