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Introduction

I haven't done Gen 2 in a while so time to push another movie on here and also attempt to get a low glitch TAS onto here! This TAS aims to obsolete [2504] GBC Pokémon: Gold Version "save glitch" by Bobmario511 in 54:24.96. Wait, this movie is already obsoleted? Yes, however, given the judgement of my failed Coin Case submission, it doesn't really seem to make sense for that movie (which does not do any game end glitching) to be obsoleted in favor of the game end glitch TASes, especially given its entertainment rating being higher than all of the game end glitch TASes (at a nice 6.9 average). I believe the other save glitch TASes (which are essentially game end glitch TASes) (and maybe the Coin Case TAS too for consistency?) should have their branches renamed to "game end glitch", with the non-geg save glitch TASes staying as "save glitch".
Also, there is some recent precedent for "game end glitch" being used over "save glitch" for runs that have both: [4315] GB The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening "game end glitch" by CasualPokePlayer in 01:02.42
Also if this gets rejected I can call it a late April Fools submission right?

Emulator used: Bizhawk 2.5.2

  • SubGBHawk is used due to the use of several sub-frame resets.
  • CGB in GBA is enabled for potential console verification which I mean no chance in heck this thing is getting console verified anyways lmao.

Categories

  • Corrupts save data
  • Forgoes machine level "holy grail" glitches (i.e. Arbitrary Code Execution, Arbitrary ROM Execution and Arbitrary Memory Corruption)
  • Luck manipulation
  • Contains speed/entertainment trade-offs

About the run

Version Choice

Gold is used over Silver due to the use of wrong pocket TM47. This wrong pocket TM in Gold corrupts the map, which is useful in glitching all the way to Mt. Silver. This TM does nothing in Silver, making Gold superior due to this. Crystal doesn't have this nice map corruption TM either, and is even worse due to item 0x00's description crashing the game (in G/S, the item description is a harmless ?).

Glitch Summary

  • Save corrupt main save data and collide that checksum three times. Each corruption has a specific use:
    • Remove the party list terminator and nuke starter stats
    • Remove the "CANCEL" in the main items pocket
    • Nuke party stats again after getting the party list terminator back in.
  • With the "CANCEL" removed in the main items pocket, item underflow can be easily obtained. This will be used like so:
    • Make a Bike and put it on the top of the list.
    • Make some Mail and put it on the starter.
    • Make TM47 in the wrong pocket.
  • To corrupt the map with TM47, simply use the TM, then use some GB Printer option (either via the Pokedex or Mail). A save+quit can be done too or alternatively for more results.
  • With the party terminator gone, the game lets me swap the moves of "Pokemon" outside of my party. This might seem to be overpowered on first glance, but in reality it's very unlikely data will line up with these "Pokemon" moves/PP. Luckily, it so happens that the 162th "Pokemon" will have Red's event flag in its "moves," so that can be knocked out easily instead of dealing with the E4.
  • Since the game will crash if it heals my party with no party terminator and since the game autoheals right before the credits, I have to get another Pokemon so I have an actual terminator in there so it doesn't just crash before the credits roll. I obtain HM03 for this purpose. This wrong pocket HM's pointer is in the middle of daycare code, specifically the code for withdrawing a Pokemon. In effect it will add a copy of whatever is in the daycare (in this case, nothing, so mon 0x00) to my party, and will add the terminator to go with it.
  • Since there is no way I can win against Red with a Struggle-ing level 1 0x00 Pokemon, I need a way to quickly win this. To do this, I just nuke the party stats with save corruption so all my mons have 0 HP. If all Pokemon in my party are fainted and a battle is initiated, the game activates a failsafe which automatically wins the battle.

Route

Intro

  • Options are not set as text can print at the fast speed when A or B is held anyway.
  • Oh yeah I just copy pasted my save glitch Silver TAS for this intro since that would be mostly identical input lmao
  • The player is named "J". The name will appear quite a bit so it's worth giving a name, and A/B/I/J all take the same amount of time to input. J is used because

New Bark Town

  • A collision is done first to get rid of the party terminator.
  • The Potion is obtained, then a second collision is done to get rid of the item terminator.
  • Underflow items lmao
  • I used the "registered item slot" byte to create the Bike. Note that if exactly 255 items in the pack, the game will jump the cursor back up to the top after interacting with items. This makes it easy to get the Bike to the top of the pack.
  • Mail is created and given to the starter.
  • TM47 is created.

En route to Goldenrod

  • TM47 is used to get past Mikey.
  • TM47 is used to get past the Sudowoodo.
  • TM47 is used to avoid trainers en route to Goldenrod
  • TM47 is used to get past the Magnet Train guard.

En route to Mt. Silver

  • TM47 is used to get out of bounds in Cerulean. This is used to get to Pewter from this direction. TM47 is used again to glitch back in bounds.
  • TM47 is used to get past the Mt. Silver guards. A save+quit is needed here too.
  • Red's flag is modified with out of bounds Pokemon move swaps so Red will appear.
  • HM03 is created then used to get the terminator back in. The final collision is done so its HP is nuked. I have to save+quit here anyways for the map corruption to be complete, so this works nicely anyways.
  • Red is an autowin due to all my Pokemon being fainted.

GoddessMaria: Judging.
GoddessMaria: This one, admittedly, had me stumped. The intended purpose of this movie was to separate the "save glitch" branch from the "game end glitch" one, which would've been harmless enough. However, there's a problem with that for these games. What method is used to achieve their respective end goals? The answer is ACE, which makes them still linked rather than different in their goals.
Now the question becomes, how do they compare against each other in reaching that goal. The fact that they both use ACE means that the faster of the two would be more worthwhile. As the "game end glitch" branch achieves its goal but writing code to go straight to the end as opposed to the "save glitch", which this movie is aiming for, is a less optimal version of the former. That having been said, this movie is still slower than the published movie due to them both using ACE and the published movie does this much faster. Therefore...
I'm rejecting this movie due to arbitrary goal choice.


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Patashu
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Yes vote! While not as world destroyingly glitchy as the movie this obsoletes, I enjoy highly glitched TASes that don't just use one glitch to become God, but have to navigate the world using a new powerful set of techniques. Similarly, I'd love to see an obsoletion in this vein (preserving the spirit rather than the rules of the category) for another pokemon classic cut down in its prime, [2653] GB Pokémon: Red Version "Gotta Catch 'Em All!" by MrWint in 1:54:56.62. I don't know what specific ruleset the RTA equivalent to the category uses to avoid devolving into one-god-glitch but it managed to remain exremely cool ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3myc23dd1_Q ) so maybe there's hope for TASes too?
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Patashu wrote:
. I don't know what specific ruleset the RTA equivalent to the category uses to avoid devolving into one-god-glitch but it managed to remain exremely cool ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3myc23dd1_Q ) so maybe there's hope for TASes too?
Is there even a way to make such a ruleset without eventually somehow rebreaking the game back to the current CEA? As in, a new category is made, then due to new improvements we end up with 2 very glitchy TASes that look nothing like what was the original intent for the category.
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Patashu wrote:
Similarly, I'd love to see an obsoletion in this vein (preserving the spirit rather than the rules of the category) for another pokemon classic cut down in its prime, [2653] GB Pokémon: Red Version "Gotta Catch 'Em All!" by MrWint in 1:54:56.62. I don't know what specific ruleset the RTA equivalent to the category uses to avoid devolving into one-god-glitch but it managed to remain exremely cool ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3myc23dd1_Q ) so maybe there's hope for TASes too?
The ruleset the main CEA leaderboard uses primarily stops "one-god-glitch" by banning "mass farming glitches". What's a mass farming glitch and how does it different from a non-mass farming glitch? It's extremely subjective, in effect it is basically "farming glitches which make run boring are banned, farming glitches which do not make run boring are allowed." I'm not too sure how much footing such a category can have on TASVideos considering this flimsy rule.
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Nice TAS, yes vote!
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If I may ask, what is the purpose of this particular movie when the other movie that you have also submitted would be more in line as an improvement to the current movie of the branch? "Game End Glitch" already obsoleted the "Save Glitch" category prior to these submissions. If the aim is to make "Save Glitch" for Gold have its own branch, I'd like for you to please explain why it should be the case over what we currently have. Given that it was already obsoleted by Crystal's "Save Glitch" prior to "Game End Glitch".
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Isn't this just the standard save corruption run but with extra steps? I'm failing to see how it actually differs from the published Crystal run.
CasualPokePlayer wrote:
Patashu wrote:
Similarly, I'd love to see an obsoletion in this vein (preserving the spirit rather than the rules of the category) for another pokemon classic cut down in its prime, [2653] GB Pokémon: Red Version "Gotta Catch 'Em All!" by MrWint in 1:54:56.62. I don't know what specific ruleset the RTA equivalent to the category uses to avoid devolving into one-god-glitch but it managed to remain exremely cool ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3myc23dd1_Q ) so maybe there's hope for TASes too?
The ruleset the main CEA leaderboard uses primarily stops "one-god-glitch" by banning "mass farming glitches". What's a mass farming glitch and how does it different from a non-mass farming glitch? It's extremely subjective, in effect it is basically "farming glitches which make run boring are banned, farming glitches which do not make run boring are allowed." I'm not too sure how much footing such a category can have on TASVideos considering this flimsy rule.
That's a bizarre ruling considering we have plenty of runs with entirely subjective and abstract goals that tank entertainment hard, even for games "hard to get a video published for". Obtaining all Pokemon is not arbitrary like only pressing a button a certain number of times or refusing to even press it at all. It's a very clear-cut goal, even more than an actual speedrun is. It shouldn't matter how "entertaining" it is to complete said goal. Some Mega Man and most Sonic speedruns aren't even watchable due to it just being a jerky camera speeding through a level but get accepted. ACE runs where a game is completed in mere seconds get accepted despite not being entertaining on any level (like the SMB3 one). It completes a goal, which is something actually concrete and non-arbitrary.
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GoddessMaria wrote:
If I may ask, what is the purpose of this particular movie when the other movie that you have also submitted would be more in line as an improvement to the current movie of the branch? "Game End Glitch" already obsoleted the "Save Glitch" category prior to these submissions. If the aim is to make "Save Glitch" for Gold have its own branch, I'd like for you to please explain why it should be the case over what we currently have. Given that it was already obsoleted by Crystal's "Save Glitch" prior to "Game End Glitch".
Crystal's "save glitch" is in essence still just a "game end glitch". And when the original Crystal "save glitch" TAS was published, it did not obsolete the "Coin Case" TAS (which is also just a "game end glitch"), that got a separate category, and instead obsoleted the original Gold "save glitch" TAS (which note was obsoleted by Coin Case at the time). That was until my own Coin Case submission, which was rejected due to, again, both "save glitch" and "Coin Case" just being game end glitch TASes and Wint's Coin Case TAS was moved to be obsoleted by the save glitch chain (along with Coin Case not being entertaining enough. The original Gold "save glitch" TAS I am saying should be a separate branch along with this movie (to obsolete it), as these 2 movies do not do any game end glitching, while all the other glitched movies just do a game end glitch (and the other glitched movies should all be re-named to "game end glitch"). of course this is going to fail anyways, since going off the ratings and feedback, this movie does not really seem to entertaining enough anyways, so even if the goal is sound the audience fucks me over anyways lol
Acumenium wrote:
Isn't this just the standard save corruption run but with extra steps? I'm failing to see how it actually differs from the published Crystal run.
CasualPokePlayer wrote:
Patashu wrote:
Similarly, I'd love to see an obsoletion in this vein (preserving the spirit rather than the rules of the category) for another pokemon classic cut down in its prime, [2653] GB Pokémon: Red Version "Gotta Catch 'Em All!" by MrWint in 1:54:56.62. I don't know what specific ruleset the RTA equivalent to the category uses to avoid devolving into one-god-glitch but it managed to remain exremely cool ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3myc23dd1_Q ) so maybe there's hope for TASes too?
The ruleset the main CEA leaderboard uses primarily stops "one-god-glitch" by banning "mass farming glitches". What's a mass farming glitch and how does it different from a non-mass farming glitch? It's extremely subjective, in effect it is basically "farming glitches which make run boring are banned, farming glitches which do not make run boring are allowed." I'm not too sure how much footing such a category can have on TASVideos considering this flimsy rule.
That's a bizarre ruling considering we have plenty of runs with entirely subjective and abstract goals that tank entertainment hard, even for games "hard to get a video published for". Obtaining all Pokemon is not arbitrary like only pressing a button a certain number of times or refusing to even press it at all. It's a very clear-cut goal, even more than an actual speedrun is. It shouldn't matter how "entertaining" it is to complete said goal. Some Mega Man and most Sonic speedruns aren't even watchable due to it just being a jerky camera speeding through a level but get accepted. ACE runs where a game is completed in mere seconds get accepted despite not being entertaining on any level (like the SMB3 one). It completes a goal, which is something actually concrete and non-arbitrary.
1. This movie avoids using any ACE exploits, along with other "holy grail" glitches which would end up turning into a "game end glitch". Also implicitly implied is that this branch would avoid any game end glitches outright, even if they aren't sourced from ACE/ARE/AMC (although given Gen 2, that's extremely hard to do anyways since just "go to credits" does not count as a proper ending, you need to actually "beat Red" and trigger the credits there for the "proper" ending). Also, Crystal? All the Crystal glitched movies are obsoleted, so I'm not sure what you're talking about there. 2. You missed the point. "Catch 'em All" is perfectly publishable, and is even vaultable due to it being "full completion". Of course, since it can be vaulted, the entertainment is able to be severely tanked due to the use of mass farming glitches. Patashu was asking for a CEA run that does not tank entertainment, and to do so, you have to avoid the use of mass-farming glitches. The problem here is "mass-farming glitches" are hard to actually define. What farming glitches count as "mass-farming" and not? RTA's answer: boring = mass-farming, not boring = not mass-farming. So it ends up being entirely subjective.
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I think the issue with save corruption vs. Coin Case is that both cases are either ACE directly to win the game, or a glitch powerful enough to cause ACE but not actually using it for ACE and still winning the game with it. The difference between using arbitrary code execution to pull the credits or using the same glitch capable of arbitrary code execution to put you in front of Red and automatically win is almost nothing. I think the Gen 1 TASes highlight an interesting non-ACE glitch (IIRC the $F8FF glitch cannot execute arbitrary code) to win the game in record time. So... I do agree with you that "game end glitch" is too unhelpful of a description. Delineating ACE from non-ACE with it seem silly when both will be "game end glitches". Prior to being accepted (Which I wasn't aware it was, good that it was, though!) the discussion for the current "Catch 'Em All" seemed to be discussing if it's even acceptable before rules changed to explicitly allow it. Wouldn't Patashu's problem be solved by only using glitches for the extra 26/27 (if counting Mew) Pokemon that can't be obtained via any means by playing the game? I don't think LWAing or any other Pokemon obtaining glitch is something anyone will argue with against if it's for Pokemon that literally cannot be obtained otherwise. Alternatively, would completing the Pokedex as much as possible within one cart and without glitches (124 for Red/Blue, 129 for Yellow) be a category that can be explored? It was brought up once before Lucky's glitched CEA run but the only response to it (other than Patachu's question) seemed negative.
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Acumenium wrote:
I think the issue with save corruption vs. Coin Case is that both cases are either ACE directly to win the game, or a glitch powerful enough to cause ACE but not actually using it for ACE and still winning the game with it. The difference between using arbitrary code execution to pull the credits or using the same glitch capable of arbitrary code execution to put you in front of Red and automatically win is almost nothing.
"glitch powerful enough to cause ACE" in this context doesn't really make sense. "save glitch" (or really just save corruption) is more a kind of glitch rather than a specific glitch itself. Save corruption could yield from "oh no save won't load because it's corrupted" or "oh corrupted some save memory and the game can apparently load it". That is like saying any kind of memory corruption glitch is powerful enough to cause ACE. Some cases yes, others no. Also the Coin Case is always just ACE so I don't see the point in including that there.
Acumenium wrote:
I think the Gen 1 TASes highlight an interesting non-ACE glitch (IIRC the $F8FF glitch cannot execute arbitrary code) to win the game in record time.
$F8FF is literally an address in echo RAM, jumping there is by definition ACE.
Acumenium wrote:
So... I do agree with you that "game end glitch" is too unhelpful of a description. Delineating ACE from non-ACE with it seem silly when both will be "game end glitches".
My point was this movie avoids a game end glitch so it can be separate from the game end glitch TASes?
Acumenium wrote:
Wouldn't Patashu's problem be solved by only using glitches for the extra 26/27 (if counting Mew) Pokemon that can't be obtained via any means by playing the game? I don't think LWAing or any other Pokemon obtaining glitch is something anyone will argue with against if it's for Pokemon that literally cannot be obtained otherwise. Alternatively, would completing the Pokedex as much as possible within one cart and without glitches (124 for Red/Blue, 129 for Yellow) be a category that can be explored? It was brought up once before Lucky's glitched CEA run but the only response to it (other than Patachu's question) seemed negative.
1. That's just 124 glitchless CEA before you proceed to do part of the glitched CEA. Which seems to be just some weird "glitchless until you are forced glitched" 2. To be honest, I don't really see too much of a point of a 124 TAS when we have Diploma already. If you want a glitchless CEA TAS, you might as well do it fully with 2 players.
Post subject: Re: #7090: CasualPokePlayer's GBC Pokémon: Gold Version "save glitch" in 10:54.77
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TASVideoAgent wrote:
Also, there is some recent precedent for "game end glitch" being used over "save glitch" for runs that have both: [4315] GB The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening "game end glitch" by CasualPokePlayer in 01:02.42
Was it meant to be a precedent for that branch label though? We use to call all major skip glitches caused by save corruption "save glitch". Well, maybe with some exceptions that can be examined and updated. http://tasvideos.org/Movies-C3057Y.html In any case, it's not about wording. What we care about is the techniques used, their optimality, clarity of the goal, its difference from existing publications, and the entertainment level of the result. The argument pro this submission here seems to be that [2565] GBC Pokémon: Silver Version "Coin Case glitch" by MrWint in 30:39.49 and all the newer movies in the MSG branch skip right to the end, which is reflected in their movie classes: Major skip glitch and Final boss skip glitch. While [2504] GBC Pokémon: Gold Version "save glitch" by Bobmario511 in 54:24.96 is only Major skip glitch, just like this run. CasualPokePlayer pointed out to me that they both skip the final boss.
In #6796: CasualPokePlayer's GBC Pokémon: Gold/Silver/Crystal Version "Coin Case glitch" in 30:01.80 I wrote:
Samsara wrote:
Going back to the first quote and the previous standards I brought up (SMB3 and Chrono Trigger), "game end glitch" is generally treated as a universal category despite what methods are used. Save corruption or no save corruption, both runs get to a point where they manipulate memory to reach the credits instantly. My arguments are upholding how the site has historically handled (coin) cases like these.
We have this movie class that covers different glitch types: http://tasvideos.org/MovieClassGuidelines.html#MajorSkipGlitch And this term that talks about the same thing: http://tasvideos.org/Glossary.html#GameBreakingGlitch There is fundamental similarity in all such glitches, even if visually they may differ a lot. Someone probably needs to do a search through all movie branches on the site to tell if any other game has had "save glitch" alongside some other major skip glitch like "game end glitch". [1978] SNES Super Metroid "X-Ray glitch" by Cpadolf in 21:25.12 and [2558] SNES Super Metroid "GT code, game end glitch" by amaurea, Cpadolf, total in 14:52.88 co-existed for a short while, then [2600] SNES Super Metroid "game end glitch" by Cpadolf in 12:54.71 obsoleted both, and the GEG branch has since been reduced to [3768] SNES Super Metroid "game end glitch" by Sniq in 06:42.54 Comparable in its iconic status to this franchise, but it didn't have an exception for too long. And I must note that "GT code, game end glitch" was tremendously different from anything we've seen by then, so yes it was an exception.
To which Samsara duly responded:
Samsara wrote:
I went through every currently published run categorized with Major Skip Glitch, and out of all of them, only Gen1 Pokemon (Yellow "game end" and Red "save") and Gen2 Pokemon (Crystal "save" and Silver "coin case") fit this criteria. I can check obsoleted movies and obsoletion chains as well, though I imagine that'd take a lot more time.
That latter case is no longer a precedent, as per the 6796S's rejection message:
Memory wrote:
Rejecting and requesting that [2565] GBC Pokémon: Silver Version "Coin Case glitch" by MrWint in 30:39.49 be obsoleted by [3831] GBC Pokémon: Crystal Version "save glitch" by gifvex in 04:12.68.
So the only example we have right now is: [4329] GB Pokémon: Red Version "save glitch" by MrWint, Alyosha & CasualPokePlayer in 01:15.62 [3901] GBC Pokémon: Yellow Version "game end glitch" by TiKevin83 in 09:47.92 Different game version used in those may be confusing, but in fact, both branches used Red and Yellow over the years. So the GEG branch of Gen1 avoids save data corruption, and doesn't seem to skip the final boss. But this submission uses save corruption as the main MSG exploit, just like #7097: CasualPokePlayer's GBC Pokémon: Gold/Silver/Crystal Version "save glitch" in 03:14.16 and movies it will obsolete!
So while the goal of this branch is kinda iffy, I still need to ask if the route is vastly different from all the current publications of Gen2. And whether it's entertaining in and of itself.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Post subject: Re: #7090: CasualPokePlayer's GBC Pokémon: Gold Version "save glitch" in 10:54.77
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feos wrote:
So while the goal of this branch is kinda iffy, I still need to ask if the route is vastly different from all the current publications of Gen2. And whether it's entertaining in and of itself.
For the route, it is fairly different. TM47 abuse has not been seen for any publication yet, and out of bounds Pokemon move swaps gain a niche use for this route too (and technically the underflowed inventory method hasn't been seen yet for a publication, but my other to be published submission shows it, so not really a point there). As for entertainment... well as I said myself, going off votes and current feedback I don't have too much hope on that side. I suppose the similarity at the beginning to my other (to be published) submission with underflowed inventory, along with it just taking a while to do things in there, and the out of bounds Pokemon move swaps end up taking over a minute (although I did try to have some sort of entertainment there by allowing "disco colors" to shine occasionally, but eh, probably doesn't help too much). Really the goal of this submission is to have any sort of "low glitch" branch present for Gen 2. The issue here it's hard to define. Coin Case shows that 2 game end glitch branches cannot co-exist with each other (although I guess that calls into question Gen 1, which side note that GEG does skip the final boss, that movie publication is just missing that tag). A solution could be just "don't game end glitch" but if having 2 save glitch branches present is an issue, well there isn't too much that's actually possible. It is possible to beat Gen 2 without any save corruption nor game end glitches (and faster than glitchless), but it's really dumb either way and either are arguably save glitches (save shenanigans rather than save corruption). One would be Gold/Silver, where it's nearly identical to glitchless until after the Hall of Fame, which case the game screws up initializing the save when the HoF save is the first save so you just get free glitch mons by depositing/withdrawing Pokemon, which then it's quite literally just glitch past Mt Silver guard then beat Red. Then there is Crystal, which mostly ends up being "beat first 3 gyms, go to Battle Tower, win a round, quick save+reset, start new game with same TID as first time, save before starter, then beat the first 3 gyms again and go to the Battle Tower, the game fucks up saving when you have the same TID as last run so Battle Tower is fucked then you can go get a free glitch mon by getting the Odd Egg." oh and then JPN Gold/Silver quite literally can satisfy both no save glitches and no game end glitch due to a bugged Bug Catching Contest, which would a little over the length of a Coin Case TAS ironically lol Anyways I imagine any hope I have for a "low glitch" TAS is probably dead anyways, and I wouldn't be surprised if this movie is rejected due to entertainment.
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Hey, I was entertained. Nice routing. Appreciate the classic use of corrupted strings to enable walk through walls.
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This movie does not utilize ACE. That is a specific restriction I laid out in this movie, and it was followed correctly. While I do see reasons this would be rejected, "using ACE" is simply a falsehood and not a good reason. If you don't believe me, a simple lua script can prove ACE is not being used.
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Does it still corrupt RAM?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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feos wrote:
Does it still corrupt RAM?
Sure. I would also like to note it is precedented several times to have published movies side by side which both corrupt memory, with a distinction one is a game end glitch (/uses ACE) and one isn't, so just "both corrupt RAM" doesn't seem to be a good justification (along with just corrupting RAM != ACE usage).
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See both [4465] GBC Pokémon: Gold Version "save glitch" by CasualPokePlayer in 03:14.16 and this submission corrupt both RAM and save data to end the game prematurely. As I mentioned earlier, if save corruption is what a Major skip glitch is based on, it's historically just called "save glitch". Since the primary techniques are still the same, the only distinction is what you do with them, which is when it becomes a matter of technique optimality. Which is when it also becomes a matter of audience support. [4131] NES Mega Man by Shinryuu, pirohiko, Maru & finalfighter in 09:45.35 doesn't end the game prematurely. There's a semi-ongoing discussion on how to make a low-glitch branch of Mega Man 1 the most entertaining and different from the existing ones, which by my suggestion would be "no memory corruption". Can't exhaustively comment on OOT from 2014 because I don't know the game. PS: I'm not saying they both use ACE, that was probably just a little confusion.
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And I retract my statement on this performing no ACE, it appears I was technically wrong, with accidental ACE triggered during the out of bounds Pokemon move swaps (apparently that didn't just immediately crash and just returned to normal game operation lol). I'll work on a movie which can avoid the accidental ACE usage.
Since the primary techniques are still the same, the only distinction is what you do with them, which is when it becomes a matter of technique optimality. Which is when it also becomes a matter of audience support.
I see the reasoning on this. Although that isn't what the judgement note is saying. The judgement note claims that both are using ACE, and one is using ACE sub-optimally. That isn't the intent of this submission, which is to completely avoid ACE usage (which did actually use it by a technicality, although it's trivial enough to fix anyways so). In fact, the judgement note implies if ACE was not a factor, it would be "harmless enough" for a new branch (although even then I still see audience support being a possible issue here).
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As I said, probably confusion. What I would actually want to know is if there's a better way to avoid save corruption than [2565] GBC Pokémon: Silver Version "Coin Case glitch" by MrWint in 30:39.49 does.
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Well, I went through the options you have if you want to avoid save corruption AND ACE usage... and they aren't great (and while 2 are not save corruption, you could potentially still call them "save glitch"), besides 1 potential grace. 1. Gold ENG - Improperly initialized box data If the first save of the game is from the automatic save right before the Hall of Fame, then box data gets improperly initialized. Using this, a glitchmon can trivially be obtained, and used to skip past the guard blocking Mt. Silver, and Red can just be fought like normal. The main issue of this is simply that's it's effectively a carbon copy of the glitchless route until after Johto is completed, then Kanto is where there's any actual glitching (which at most is just to skip the guard blocking Mt. Silver, Red can probably be fought normally anyways/glitching an instant win is probably slower). Also, while this isn't save corruption, it's a glitch with the game's saving routines still. 2. Crystal ENG - Improperly cleared Battle Tower data/"God Egg" The Battle Tower has a "quick save" feature in it, being able to done after winning a round. If after a quick save and New Game is started, and in that New Game the Trainer ID is manipulated to be identical to the previous save, then the game will not clear out the Battle Tower data from the quick save. It will also put in the same party of the latest save into your party when re-entering the battle tower. This also effectively means if the latest save is before grabbing your starter, you will have 0 pokemon party after re-entering the Battle Tower. You can then proceed to get the Odd Egg from the daycare, which screws itself up if no Pokemon are present in the party, creating the "God Egg" which is essentially a glitchmon which can be used to glitch to the end. The main issue here is just a somewhat similarity to the glitchless route for the first 3 gyms, with some preparation done to win a round in the Battle Tower, then the first 3 gyms are done again before proceeding onto the Battle Tower a second time. Also, while this isn't save corruption, it's a glitch with the game's saving routines still. 3. Gold JPN - Improperly cleared Bug Catching Contest flags Teleporting out the Bug Catching Contest doesn't properly clear out the flags, allowing for Pokemon to be deposited/withdrawn from the PC before re-entering the Bug Catching Contest, which then can be "ended" and a glitchmon will be put into the party. Which then can be used to get to the end. Main issue here is I guess just JPN usage, which is something I wanted to avoid. Also, on the explanations on Mega Man and OoT, those aren't the only two examples I could of gave. Those were just the first 2 examples I could find. There's quite a bit more than that.
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A reminder: ACE is when you either deliberately or accidentally construct assembler instructions, that did not exist in the game originally, somewhere in the memory, which are then executed by the processor. If your movie results in the processor executing instructions that were not part of the game program or which could not be generated by the game at runtime without explicit design by the player, then it counts as ACE. There are games which compose instructions in RAM at runtime, and those instructions then get executed, but only if those instructions are composed from joypad inputs somehow without restriction to what those instructions might be, then that is ACE.
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Movie which avoids the accidental ACE usage.
Bisqwit wrote:
A reminder: ACE is when you either deliberately or accidentally construct assembler instructions, that did not exist in the game originally, somewhere in the memory, which are then executed by the processor. If your movie results in the processor executing instructions that were not part of the game program or which could not be generated by the game at runtime without explicit design by the player, then it counts as ACE.
I agree.
Bisqwit wrote:
There are games which compose instructions in RAM at runtime, and those instructions then get executed, but only if those instructions are composed from joypad inputs somehow without restriction to what those instructions might be, then that is ACE.
I agree to a point. If any corruption of these routines happen and these routines are executed with the corrupted code, then it should count as ACE.
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I believe the other save glitch TASes (which are essentially game end glitch TASes) (and maybe the Coin Case TAS too for consistency?) should have their branches renamed to "game end glitch", with the non-geg save glitch TASes staying as "save glitch".
While I agree that branch label wording is not obviously clear in this case, "X glitch" always means major skip glitch, and when save corruption is the primary technique used for it, there's no easy way to define the difference between two movies that use save-corruption-major-skip-glitch. It's non-trivial to understand the difference between those two and also ACE usage even if you know Pokemon games decently well in terms of gameplay. I'm still unsure if this movie skips the final boss or not, and I haven't asked because I was busy trying to understand all the other aspects. If you have to be a Pokemon expert and a code expert to understand the difference, then technicality shadows entertainment.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.