With our implementation of the new Standard system, we found movie tags to be a convenient way to filter out what should and what shouldn't be moved. In the process we realized that we never really took them all that seriously before and they were mainly there for the casual viewer. In some cases, I would argue they're not that helpful even then!
We have a list of definitions for tags at the Movie Tag Guidelines. However, a lot of them could use more clear guidelines and some of them could use renaming or outright redefining. In some cases, we just need new ones altogether.
Unofficial Games could use being split into hacks/modifications, custom levels, homebrew, and bootlegs/unlicensed. I don't know if this is the best way to split but we can discuss it.
Is the definition we have for major skip glitch good enough? Should we also apply the forgoes tag to movies if a branch split occurs and the technique is not used in the branch containing an older publication, even if said technique was not known at the time?
The genre tags are confusing and are defined according to tasvideos ideas rather than popular usage at large. It hardly makes sense to make our own genres for things when the public isn't going to understand what we mean with them.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Should we also apply the forgoes tag to movies if a branch split occurs and the technique is not used in the branch containing an older publication, even if said technique was not known at the time?
If we want to create rules that highlight all sorts of movie goals, we need tags describing those goals to be indicative of whatever the contemporary situation with the branches is.
While the game-changer technique might have been unknown in the past, movies not using it may still be obsoleted by new movies that don't use it. Avoiding the technique effectively becomes a goal on its own, if there are branches that we distinguish based on this technique and its usage.
We need it for proper classification, so setting it retroactively isn't a bad thing.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4083
Location: The Netherlands
Memory wrote:
Unofficial Games could use being split into hacks/modifications, custom levels, homebrew, and bootlegs/unlicensed. I don't know if this is the best way to split but we can discuss it.
I would split up Unofficial Games as follows:
• Hacks - defined as custom (external) modifications of a game, involving modification of the main executable or ROM file by external tools.
◦ E.g.: Super Demo World (Super Mario World)
• Custom level set - for games where level files can be imported (through internal or external means) while the executable or game code itself remains untouched.
◦ E.g.: Kama Sutra (Doom 2)
• Prototype - for (unofficially released/leaked) prototype versions of games that either were officially released later or cancelled.
◦ E.g.: Wildwaters Extreme Kayak
• Unlicensed games - games that were physically/commercially released bypassing the platform's official publisher's platform or supervision (if there is one). This includes bootleg/pirated games.
◦ E.g.: Zook Hero Z
• Homebrew - games that were developed outside of the platform's official publisher's platform, but were either fully or predominantly released online in ROM format, instead of being released commercially. Could also be merged with Unlicensed.
◦ E.g.: Princess Rescue
Hacks and custom level sets would need to qualify for Moons to be eligible for publication.
Prototypes would need to meaningfully distinguish themselves from their released version (if there is one) and qualify for Moons.
Unlicensed and homebrew games can be published as standard, but the game might need to meet some standards for notability.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
I'm just noticing that there are eleven tags for genre (action, adventure, fighting, platform, puzzle, racing, rpg, shooter, sport, storybook, strategy) and yet there's a manually kept page for Metroidvanias.
Perhaps there should be a genre tag for it? "Genre: Metroidvania" or some similar term. I mean it's not a big deal or anything but it should be very easy to implement.
For that matter, it may be interesting to have a genre tag for "beat-em-up" (as in Streets of Rage, because that's pretty distinct from e.g. Street Fighter 2); as well as for "first-person shooter" (as in DOOM, because that's pretty distinct from e.g. Gradius).
Metroidvania is a list that was made by a non-staff member without really consulting any of us. I don't know how well updated that list is. Theoretically anybody could make such a movie list. I'd like to avoid delving into certain sub-genres though. "Roguelike" is a term that can cause explosions at this point.
EDIT: Agreed on beat-em ups and first person shooters tho.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Metroidvania is a list that was made by a non-staff member without really consulting any of us. I don't know how well updated that list is.
Fair enough, but my point is that "action adventure" (or however you want to call it) is a distinct genre from "action" and from "adventure". Currently on the site, action adventures are tagged arbitrarily with "action", "adventure", or with both.
Memory wrote:
Is the definition we have for major skip glitch good enough?
I'm not sure about the difference between "heavy glitch use" and "major skip glitch".
Since there is a "Forgoes save data corruption" tag, why isn't there "Forgoes memory corruption"?
Noxxa wrote:
Custom level set - for games where level files can be imported (through internal or external means) while the executable or game code itself remains untouched.
If the levels are imported through external means, I see no practical difference between a custom level set and a hack (e.g. both Super Mario World and DOOM have editors based on someone reverse-engineering the level data format; there's no reason to call the former a "hack" and the latter a "custom level"). On the other hand, some games have internal level editors.
This includes bootleg/pirated games.
"Pirated" generally means "illegally copied", so that's probably not the word you're looking for.
Homebrew - games that were developed outside of the platform's official publisher's platform
This needs rewording for platforms that don't have an official publisher platform, e.g. C64 or DOS. And on these platforms, homebrew games need a standard for notability, because any high school kid can write his own game in the standard programming languages.
Fair enough, but my point is that "action adventure" (or however you want to call it) is a distinct genre from "action" and from "adventure". Currently on the site, action adventures are tagged arbitrarily with "action", "adventure", or with both.
As I brought up in my first post, with the way we do things currently we created our own genre definitions and expect people to either know what it means or look into the movie tags guidelines to find out what it means. I think that's unreasonable and they should be updated. I'd like to go with more popular genre definitions and names.
I'm not sure about the difference between "heavy glitch use" and "major skip glitch".
Since there is a "Forgoes save data corruption" tag, why isn't there "Forgoes memory corruption"?
Heavy glitch use means heavy usage of glitches. They can cut off any amount of time. Major skip glitch means a large portion of the game is skipped by one glitch (or sometimes a combination).
There is a forgoes memory corruption tag, but I'm not sure if it's used anywhere.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
For that matter, it may be interesting to have a genre tag for "beat-em-up" (as in Streets of Rage, because that's pretty distinct from e.g. Street Fighter 2); as well as for "first-person shooter" (as in DOOM, because that's pretty distinct from e.g. Gradius).
Agreed.
Radiant wrote:
Since there is a "Forgoes save data corruption" tag, why isn't there "Forgoes memory corruption"?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Prototypes would need to meaningfully distinguish themselves from their released version (if there is one) and qualify for Moons.
This seems to be more restrictive than the current ruling in for prototypes, which allows them for Standard. I don't think putting more game choices under Moons is a good idea here.
As I brought up in my first post, with the way we do things currently we created our own genre definitions and expect people to either know what it means or look into the movie tags guidelines to find out what it means. I think that's unreasonable and they should be updated. I'd like to go with more popular genre definitions and names.
Fair point, I concur.
Ok, I'll bite. The genre "adventure games" is commonly considered the games based on Colossal Cave Adventure (ADVENT) and later the King's Quest series by Sierra; not the A2600 game also called "Adventure", and neither the NES game "Adventure Island"; as described in this wiki article. Yes, numerous early-age designers put the tag "adventure" on some of their boxes, but a marketing slogan does not a genre make.
That means that on our list of adventure games, basically everything that is also tagged "platform" or "action" should be kept in that genre and have its adventure tag removed.
In addition, we have a distinct tag for "storybook", which appears to be a term TASvideos has made up; I've never heard of "storybook games" anywhere else, and it's not on Wikipedia or on Mobygames. This list has only nine games on it anyway, and all of them appear to be adventure games (and most of them are tagged both adventure and storybook). These appear to be "adventure games with a first-person perspective" which is just not a distinct genre.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4083
Location: The Netherlands
Radiant wrote:
If the levels are imported through external means, I see no practical difference between a custom level set and a hack (e.g. both Super Mario World and DOOM have editors based on someone reverse-engineering the level data format; there's no reason to call the former a "hack" and the latter a "custom level"). On the other hand, some games have internal level editors.
The thing with injecting levels in whole-ROM games like SMW is that it's a lot harder to prove that nothing besides level data was touched, and typically editors for games like that have options that inject game code changes of some sort anyway. When you only load in a level file format file like a Doom WAD, and the boundary for not touching any game-engine-related files is not crossed, then I don't think that is or can be considered a hack.
Radiant wrote:
"Pirated" generally means "illegally copied", so that's probably not the word you're looking for.
Yeah, the words I meant to use were bootleg/unlicensed (meaning games made in violation of copyright law). Pirated indeed means something different, although it's often interchanged with the other terms.
Radiant wrote:
Homebrew - games that were developed outside of the platform's official publisher's platform
This needs rewording for platforms that don't have an official publisher platform, e.g. C64 or DOS. And on these platforms, homebrew games need a standard for notability, because any high school kid can write his own game in the standard programming languages.
By the nature of those systems (as well as that of PC platforms in general, including Windows and Linux), it's not possible to have a definition for "unofficial game". There's a myriad of ways to distribute such games, and even some highly popular games don't go through any more of a formal process than just having a download link somewhere. There can of course be clear differences in quality between a professionally made studio product and something a high school kid can put on the internet, but I don't know anything that formally decides a difference between such games being called homebrew or not.
In the current "unofficial games" list, the only games listed for such platforms are games that are also unlicensed, like DOS Mario & Luigi or Windows Syobon Action.
Wikipedia also defines homebrew games as explicitly hobbyist games produced for proprietary hardware, and notes that developers of that nature for freely programmable systems like C64 are simply considered hobbyist, not homebrew.
CasualPokePlayer wrote:
Noxxa wrote:
Prototypes would need to meaningfully distinguish themselves from their released version (if there is one) and qualify for Moons.
This seems to be more restrictive than the current ruling in for prototypes, which allows them for Standard. I don't think putting more game choices under Moons is a good idea here.
Yeah, my mistake, I overlooked that some of them were already in standard. I didn't mean to make anything more restrictive.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Yeah, the words I meant to use were bootleg/unlicensed (meaning games made in violation of copyright law).
While I like the term "bootleg" for unauthorized modifications or franchise usage, it'd be nice to distinguish that from things like Camerica games: original games that just didn't get the official license. Do you think that'd make sense?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4083
Location: The Netherlands
feos wrote:
While I like the term "bootleg" for unauthorized modifications or franchise usage, it'd be nice to distinguish that from things like Camerica games: original games that just didn't get the official license. Do you think that'd make sense?
I think putting a difference based solely on copyrighted content can potentially get quite fuzzy, while at the same time I don't know if there is much of a benefit to distinguish between the two. Ultimately, they both qualify as games made in violation of civil law, one breaking it with the copyright holder, and the other breaking it with the console publisher.
I don't feel like we need to subdivide everything to this level - splitting unofficial games into four or five categories already feels like it's a bit much.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
More checking!
The "sports" genre seems mostly well-applied, except that fighting sports tend to be tagged as both "fighting" and "sports"; I feel that's incorrect because a boxing sports game is not the same genre as Mortal Kombat.
Also, NES Vegas Dream and SNES Vegas Stakes (casino games) are mislabelled as sports.
For the "racing" genre, some racing games are dual-tagged as both racing and sports; I don't think that's helpful.
Also, A2600 Skiing doesn't strike me as a racing game, and (despite the name) C64 The Human Race really isn't a racing game. GBA Kuru Kuru Kururin, GB The Incredible Crash Dummies, and Genesis Marble Madness / NES Marble Madness aren't racing games either, unless we (weirdly) define the genre as any game where you have to reach a goal under a time limit.
There's the "shooter" genre, and I feel that A7800 Choplifter doesn't really fit (I mean yes you can shoot, but there's more to the genre than having a gun). Likewise, DOS Duke Nukem and DOS Jazz Jackrabbit obviously aren't shooter games.
Also, I feel we should distinguish between shoot-em-ups (e.g. Galaga) and run-and-gun games (e.g. Metal Slug, Contra). And, as mentioned before, first-person (e.g. DOOM).
A genre tag we appear to be missing is "survival horror"; by its descriptive text, DS Dementium: The Ward is a survival horror game, but it is oddly tagged as action + shooter.
Another genre tag I haven't seen yet is "card battle", such as DS Yu-Gi-Oh! 5D's World (which is currently tagged as a puzzle and strategy game, but doesn't really fit either genre). Several more puzzle games are incorrectly double-tagged with puzzle and strategy (assumedly because solving puzzles involves strategy, but that's not what "strategy game" means). For instance, DS Polarium.
We might want a "real-time strategy" tag for e.g. PSX Warcraft II; it is often considered distinct from turn-based strategy.
GBA Hikaru no Go, NES Solitaire, and SNES Clue are mislabeled strategy, despite clearly being board games. GBA Tom Clancy's Splinter Cel and SNES ActRaiser are oddly tagged platform and strategy, a combination which makes no sense to me. Finally, VBoy 3-D Tetris is clearly not a strategy game.
NES Where in Time Is Carmen Sandiego is not a strategy game either, and is oddly tagged "storybook" despite really not being a storybook adventure (see above for my remarks on that tag). Maybe "educative" should be a tag?
And finally, the "puzzle" genre needs some split to distinguish between falling-block and connect-the-color puzzles (e.g. Tetris, Puzzle Bobble), and thinking puzzles like Rubik's World. I'm not really surprised that a ton of games (that contain some puzzles) are labeled as "puzzle game" despite that not being what the genre means.
Another tag that needs addressing is pacifist. While the guidelines suggest it should be placed when it either loses time or is a stylistic choice, it does not mention what should be done if it saves time. If it saves time to avoid enemies, I feel it is no longer a relevant tag. Otherwise huge amounts RPGs would get the tag. I feel it should be used only if it loses time, is neutral time save, or is a challenge recognized in-game like Undertale.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4083
Location: The Netherlands
Memory wrote:
Another tag that needs addressing is pacifist. While the guidelines suggest it should be placed when it either loses time or is a stylistic choice, it does not mention what should be done if it saves time. If it saves time to avoid enemies, I feel it is no longer a relevant tag. Otherwise huge amounts RPGs would get the tag. I feel it should be used only if it loses time, is neutral time save, or is a challenge recognized in-game like Undertale.
I agree - pacifist tag only makes sense if one of the following apply:
• it is an explicitly recognized achievement in-game
• it is a deliberate decision to avoid killing enemies, that results in a slower run-time
• it is equal in time, but the player has to deliberately go out of the way to achieve it
If being pacifist is the fastest option, then it's nothing special, and should not be labeled as such.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
A genre tag we appear to be missing is "survival horror"; by its descriptive text, DS Dementium: The Ward is a survival horror game, but it is oddly tagged as action + shooter.
I thing just "horror" is enough, because not all horror games are also survival.
Noxxa wrote:
Memory wrote:
Another tag that needs addressing is pacifist. While the guidelines suggest it should be placed when it either loses time or is a stylistic choice, it does not mention what should be done if it saves time. If it saves time to avoid enemies, I feel it is no longer a relevant tag. Otherwise huge amounts RPGs would get the tag. I feel it should be used only if it loses time, is neutral time save, or is a challenge recognized in-game like Undertale.
I agree - pacifist tag only makes sense if one of the following apply:
• it is an explicitly recognized achievement in-game
• it is a deliberate decision to avoid killing enemies, that results in a slower run-time
• it is equal in time, but the player has to deliberately go out of the way to achieve it
If being pacifist is the fastest option, then it's nothing special, and should not be labeled as such.
I don't have any counter-points.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Implemented changes to pacifist since I can't really see any objections popping up.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Second quest/Post-game completion
I think if this goal can be accessed via in-game codes, results in higher difficulty or a true ending, and there's no content difference in gameplay between loops, we should prefer that goal and publish it to Standard. In some games your stats carry over from the first loop, and you can beat the second loop faster using those, but still accessing it directly through a password makes the game harder, so I think it's a valid goal on its own.
In some games like Ghosts'n'Goblins you can't skip the easier loop, and so far the tradition has been to just beat the first one, even though it doesn't give the true ending.
But what do we do with movies that just play both modes? Should they obsolete single-mode ones? Are there ever situations when we would not want single-loop movies to be obsoleted, and instead have them as a separate branch? It'd feel strange to reject such a movie, but are there situations when it's warranted?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Typically, we lean towards movies with more content obsoleting those with less. Unless the two loops are nearly identical, I can't imagine having both be a problem.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
First off, I agree that having both loops should obsolete movies that only do one loop, especially if there's a true ending at the end of the second loop.
However, we actually have a case where both first and second quest have been published separately, namely Zelda 1. The current published movie for the first quest is sitting in Stars, but disregarding that fact, it could very well sit in Standard, whereas the second quest movie is currently in Moons. The latter uses a specific filename (ZELDA) to directly access the second quest. Ending-wise, both play out identically, with the only difference being the last screen you see.
First quest:
Second quest:
Now, the question is: Would second quest obsolete first quest, especially considering both show a proper ending, or can both happily co-exist?
Is second quest completely separate from the first if you play through first normally?
EDIT: I mean do any items or hearts or anything transfer over?
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
I mean do any items or hearts or anything transfer over?
Nothing carries over to the second quest, so it's completely separate. Second quests starts pretty much like first quest, just with a harder difficulty.
From what people told me in the chat, second quest of Zelda is just an entirely different game mode, and we allow that for Vault Standard even with a password.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Summary of a conversation I had with feos on discord:
Sometimes passwords are an intended and equally valid way of reaching a second quest/loop. Sometimes however, they are quite clearly marked as lesser. Genesis GnG doesn't allow you to start directly at the separate loop, and it puts "PRACTICE" on the bottom of the screen to indicate that you used a level select code. As such, using passwords to reach a second loop should be considered on a case by case basis...
However, this does not address the initial question, which was "how should these be classed?"
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Second quest:
Now, the question is: Would second quest obsolete first quest, especially considering both show a proper ending, or can both happily co-exist?
