This topic is for the purpose of discussing #9720: Zohaf's NES Super Mario Bros. "TEYIUT code" in 03:40.75

Hi Zohaf, welcome to TASVideos. I am the judge for this movie. You have provided a zip file with an empty file inside. Can you please re-upload your movie using the Userfile system and post the link here? https://tasvideos.org/UserFiles/Upload Thanks

Oh good, there's input to comment on now. To my untrained eye, optimization looks good. I'm guessing if you pipe on a screen the game doesn't expect, like right before the flagpole, it either won't work or lead you to an unsolvable room. In the past, we'd prefer external cheat codes were made into ROM hacks, but it doesn't appear that extra work is still required. This provides unique gameplay compared to the other published SMB runs, and should be acceptable at least to Playground now.

Quoting https://tasvideos.org/MovieRules#Alternative:

Choose a unique and interesting goal that results in significantly different gameplay to other publications.

Alternative runs that aim for speed are lightly curated: While there are no outright entertainment requirements, the chosen goal must still be clear, concise, objective, and non-arbitrary.

The question for this movie is whether the use of this code as only reason-to-be for this movie is enough to warrant the above conditions for publication to Alternative, or should be classified as PG. Staff members have varying opinions, so we decided to give the community the oppotunity to voice theirs too. Please reply to this message with your thoughts.

> We need the community's opinion on this one It's Playground or Rejected, and considering the last Game Genie rejection was 2021... Playground. Personally I don't think it's interesting using a code that just allows warping anywhere to warrant Playground. It's just technically a cut down version of the Publication but just removing all the good bits about it. Abstained vote, just as another note.

I do agree with Playground decision. While cheat codes can be interesting, I think this one is just a bit arbitrary for a proper publication, though it is still showing something funny nonetheless, so rejecting is too hard for it.

Here are the current rules on game hacks (which is generally how we treat Game Genie Codes)

• There must be a publicly and readily available download link to the hack's patch file on the web. It should be easily found through Google. Having to join an online community (for example on Discord) to get the file is not allowed. -- For obscure hacks that are not well known but really well done, ask a judge if it can be accepted.
• Fan translations are not allowed at all, even on top of other hacks.,
• Cosmetic hacks are not allowed by themselves.,
• Hacks that transform the game, especially new/changed levels, are preferred.,
• External codes are treated as ROM hacks if modifications are severe enough.

So how does this run fit with those rules? Since it's a Game Genie Code, the first bullet point isn't necessary as anyone with the emulator can input the code themselves to "hack" the game instead of needing a patch. It's not a translation. It's not a cosmetic hack. So that leaves us with questioning whether or not this hack/GG Code transforms the game. Consider how a human would play when using this code. They could accidentally press “down” too early and get stuck/wrong warp. So there is a bit of a new challenge with this code from a mechanics and speed standpoint, in not trying to warp too early. It also presents a change in approach to play with having to make sure Mario is grounded at the earliest possible moment when an actual warp is available; otherwise time would be lost. It may not otherwise be a drastic change from the main gameplay, but it is a transformative change in how the game is played. So the ultimate decision to make is: HOW transformative does a hack/code need to be in order to be published? Personally, I think this run is fine for publication. EDIT: I cant repeat the optimization I initially posted here. Not sure how I got it to work the first time. But I'm retracting my statement that further optimization is possible.

Going to be a No vote from me. I don't think this TAS is interesting or unique. It's essentially an SMB TAS where a substantial amount of the base run is just skipped. That and the optimization issues brought up by DrD2k9.

It's essentially an SMB TAS where a substantial amount of the base run is just skipped.

Devil's advocate for a moment: The warps branch itself skips a substantial amount of the base run, yet that's acceptable. So why is skipping a little more than that not okay?

Devil's advocate for a moment: The warps branch itself skips a substantial amount of the base run, yet that's acceptable. So why is skipping a little more than that not okay?

Well, this time around, a cheat code was used for this, something that isn't part of the game. That is, if we compare directly to how each category is skipping some content from the game.

Devil's advocate for a moment: The warps branch itself skips a substantial amount of the base run, yet that's acceptable. So why is skipping a little more than that not okay?

Well, this time around, a cheat code was used for this, something that isn't part of the game. That is, if we compare directly to how each category is skipping some content from the game.

Here are the current rules on game hacks (which is generally how we treat Game Genie Codes)

If game genie codes are considered rom hacks, then I wouldn't expect it to be called a cheat code. Though, yes that's more or less what game genie codes are.

I think this should be published to Playground. It would feel wrong to me to classify this as Alternative, as it is not really an alternative goal, but rather a modified version of the game, and all of the other Alternative publications are on the base version of the game. I feel like it would need to be categorized as its own ROM hack to qualify for Alternative (though at that point I guess it would go under Standard), even though I wouldn't necessarily classify it as such. It is certainly an interesting TAS. Maybe the site could introduce a new category for games played with cheat codes?

I feel like it would need to be categorized as its own ROM hack to qualify for Alternative (though at that point I guess it would go under Standard), even though I wouldn't necessarily classify it as such.

If it was classified as a separate game, would this code count as an acceptable quality hack according to "Hacks that transform the game, especially new/changed levels, are preferred."?

It’s hard to say, but I would have to lean towards no. Yes, it introduces a new game mechanic, but it doesn’t end up changing a whole lot about the run except for making certain sections shorter. To me it feels wrong to compare cheat codes with real ROM hacks, even though I know that’s functionally what they are. There’s very rarely a cheat code that’s going to transform the game enough to be put up next to other ROM hacks.

Quoting https://tasvideos.org/MovieRules#Alternative:

Choose a unique and interesting goal that results in significantly different gameplay to other publications.

Alternative runs that aim for speed are lightly curated: While there are no outright entertainment requirements, the chosen goal must still be clear, concise, objective, and non-arbitrary.

I have an issue with the arbitrary nature of this one in particular since it is so random. I do not particularly find it terribly interesting either. If this was some bug in the game I would like it far more than just some code modifying the game to make it do this. Although being "interesting" is very subjective and is not a strong reason against it. Mainly for the arbitrary nature of it I think PG is appropriate.

It's essentially an SMB TAS where a substantial amount of the base run is just skipped.

Devil's advocate for a moment: The warps branch itself skips a substantial amount of the base run, yet that's acceptable. So why is skipping a little more than that not okay?

It's the nature of how it's skipped. Whatever one considers the base run to be, it's done on the unmodified game, which is valued a lot because abusing glitches is only impressive if those glitches are present in the original game, not added via hacks. If the flagpole glitch was only available in hacks, I bet it wouldn't get as much attention among speedrunners (tool-assisted or not). Games being unmodified is one of the staples of TASVideos, it's why we care about ROMs being good and game versions authentic. Now why does it still matter ever since we switched to being creator-focused? Because one essential trait of this hack/code is that it's subjective, arbitrary. We don't usually use the very term "arbitrary" when assessing a goal (even tho it's mentioned in Alt rules), but it's unavoidable to mention it here because the change is 100% subjective. That's why it can't be judged by its face value by any one judge, and we had to ask for community opinions. Even staff split regarding how this should be treated. Asking everyone for their opinions is the only way to judge things that are subjective in nature, so it being arbitrary is not a problem per se. But it's an important difference from the base game: it's hard to explain why that change is applied exactly and not a slight variation of it. A good example if a non-arbitrary hack is Superfast Mario Bros:

The framerule was changed from 21 frames to 1 frame, instant acceleration to 0x7F speed, various delays cut out or speed values increased, nearly instant level clear. It’s about as fast as acmlm could make it go, and was meant mostly for a silly TAS, but turns out to be actually beatable too!

Since speed is stored as a signed byte, it's possible to max it out and that's what acmlm did. That makes such hacks somewhat canonical, aside from places where a few more non-speed related delays could still be removed with a bit more effort. Can anyone describe what makes this code canonical compared to all the small variations of it? If someone submits a movie using a small variation of it, how would we judge it? I don't agree that we should publish all codes as separate branches (or separate games) as long as they change gameplay. There has to be some explanation of what makes decisions taken in a given hack/code deliberate, and why it makes sense for regular play compared to the original.

Consider how a human would play when using this code. They could accidentally press “down” too early and get stuck/wrong warp. So there is a bit of a new challenge with this code from a mechanics and speed standpoint, in not trying to warp too early.

When it's so easy in a regular ROM hack to get softlocked accidentally, that's usually an indication that it's a poor quality hack. Your post does quote individual points regarding judging ROM hacks, but there's a paragraph that also matters:

ROM hacks must not be overly obscure. If a hack is known to GoodTools, ROMhacking.net, SMW Central, or some other well-known database, that usually means its quality is decent and it won't be completely lost in the future.

Of course a hack being present on such a database does not automatically mean it's of decent quality, and vice versa. But since there's so much disagreement on how to judge this movie, I think we need to understand the spirit of the rule to figure this out. Hack quality matters, and it being on a hack DB is one nice way to ensure it's decent, because usually there's some moderation involved, and most importantly one should actually invest effort into making such a hack and then extra effort into making it compatible with given policies, and then extra effort in actually getting it published. Random corruptions, which can exist in unlimited quantities, don't get all that treatment because people just don't bother further after checking them out. Now what motivates them to invest all this effort? I think the most sensible motivation is a hack being fun to play regularly, so fun that they decide to share it with the world. And then other users could leave reviews. Sometimes something in a hack makes it harder to play than the original game, but depending on how smart the changes are, that extra challenge can be part of the fun. Or if the change is poorly implemented, then you'd win or lose based on sheer luck, which is much less fun - then fun must come from something else to encourage you to keep playing despite random deaths. The challenge introduced should be clever, interesting. Superfast Mario Bros is a great example of that too! The result looked so cool and novel that I went out of my way to have it published on RHDN despite their new policy that hacks need to be submitted by authors or with an explicit permission from authors. I bothered acmlm on twitch for weeks to publish a license for his hacks that I could use, and then even more so he fixes the SMB2 hack that would softlock somewhere IIRC. All of that happened because quality of those hacks inspired me, and we also already had submissions on the queue for them, which highlighted how cool the hacks were. If this code here was presented as a patch file, would I be inspired to upload it to a ROMhacking site? Personally not. It doesn't inspire me at all unfortunately. Now Game Genie codes are much more trivial to present to the world: you just enter random chars and show what you got in a youtube video. The entry barrier is almost non-existent, and it's not much different from running a ROM corrupter on your game and then trying to play it. And given infinite number of potential game changing codes, there's has to be something in them that makes their quality decent as a ROM hack, something that distinguishes them from all other random codes. What is it for this code in your opinion?

To me it feels wrong to compare cheat codes with real ROM hacks, even though I know that’s functionally what they are. There’s very rarely a cheat code that’s going to transform the game enough to be put up next to other ROM hacks.

You can stack a bunch of codes on top of one another to get more severe changes, that's how it's done for consoles where patching the ROM file itself is not very handy. For example for GammeCube/Wii people use Gecko codes instead, and big hacks can consist of a lot of such codes. That's why the rule says "if modifications are severe enough".

Hey, could I know what the cheat code itself does? I am not very familiar with it and the descriptions are somewhat vague. My current understanding is that it allows you to press down while grounded to enter a pipe and thus a warp zone if one exists. I believe levels in SMB1 always have at least one default warp zone that gets overridden later if any warp zone data is loaded during level construction (this would explain 8-2 and 8-3 in the movie), but I would appreciate a more in depth explanation from the author if possible.