Nah, he still has to accelerate of course. And at top speed, I think it just looks faster because Mario swings his arms instead of extending them out airplane-style.
-hanzou
I think the fastest path on 4-4, a water level, requires a P-wing. There might be a few other cases like this. Mario can't go through a wall if he can't run at top speed, right?
-hanzou
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I would find a "uses no flute" run more impressive due to the extra planning required. then you have to find the optimal use of clouds, and determine if getting a frog suit or p-wing or whatever from a hammer bros is worth it. you would also have to find the optimal use of music boxes.
I think "uses no flute" is better than "flute-less" since obtaining a flute might be a faster way to complete the level
please dont get fireworks because I can't imagine anyone who hasn't seen that a million times.
Good luck, this is an insane TAS to try to pull off. If you finish it then you are truly sick!
Joined: 5/1/2004
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Location: Rio, Brazil
points which i'm 100% sure about:
- as fast as possible (no fireworks)
- using the frog suit will be usefull on more than 1 level.
- yes kill all the hammer bros, fire bros, and pirana plants. no don't go into all the mushroom houses, just the ones with usefull powerups.
- running is faster than flying
- p-wing can be very usefull in vertical scrolling levels and at the boss of each world (so you can grab the scepter before it eneters the screen, which results in a much faster after-boss animation).
- it's "ideas" not "idea's" ;) just saying it because you said so many times lol never mind.
- don't worry about getting 99 lives they will eventually be there.
- sometimes you can get the "flower" at the end of the normal levels even if you are running at full speed. i don't know what causes that, but it surely would be better than slowing down a couple of frames.
things to be discussed perhaps:
- showing secret bonus games.
- give more importance to killing enemies or gettings points/coins? i vote for killing as many enemies as possible without slowing down.
- hammer bros aren't monkeys.
- p-wing can be very usefull in vertical scrolling levels and at the boss of each world (so you can grab the scepter before it eneters the screen, which results in a much faster after-boss animation).
Are you sure it wouldn't be faster to kill the bosses with fireballs? I haven't tested this, I only have experience with Mario Adventure where it takes 5 jumps to kill the bosses so I might be wrong.
FODA, yes the P-wing will speed up vertical levels in Pipe Land, but I don't think it will help on airship levels because it'll take longer to kill the bosses without firepower/hammers.
And those levels where you grab a flower are basically just the ones where the pathway isn't long enough for Mario to gain full speed in time. They make up only a small portion.
Hey guys I figured something out this morning.
Kyrsimys wrote:
I think there should be definite, accurate goals.
Problem is, even "Get Hammer Bros. suit to kill bowser" is already a special qualifier. It takes more time to go through a mushroom house than it does to kill Bowser with fire power. You could aggregate up the time saved in killing Roy, Lemmy, Ludwig, Bowser and some Boom Booms with hammers instead of fire power and probably win out that way, but I don't think it would be good to stay in a hammers bros suit all the way through worlds 6 through 8 just to make up for the slowness of a mushroom house.
Same goes for the frog suit on a few levels. Some water levels are only slightly faster with the frog suit and don't necessarily beat out the delay from that 'Pick a box!' blurb. Gradually as you're making the run you'd see a need to add in more exceptions and you'd end up with a long list.
So here's the alternative: make the primary goal to finish the individual levels as fast as possible, and the secondary goal would be to take a map path that finishes the game as fast as possible while accomplishing the first goal. You could opt for this regardless of whether you choose to do the 100% run or the uses-no-whistles run. This way you can use hammers on Bowser, use the frog suit even when it saves only a couple seconds, use P-wings on some autoscrollers, and have opportunities to do other things that look cool. And despite all that you'll have definite, accurate goals without a long list of artificial qualifiers.
edit: Spoony_Bard wrote:
Mario Adventure is different in that regard, as it only takes 3 jumps in the original game.
I'm sure Kyrsimys is aware of that. I think it takes 12 fireballs to kill each airship boss, but even if it's more on the order of 22 that would almost certainly be faster than 3 stomps.
edit: daniayaw wrote:
FODA wrote:
- yes kill all the hammer bros, fire bros, and pirana plants.
- hammer bros aren't monkeys.
why?
I'm with daniayaw on this one. Half the hammer bros are duplicates, none are entertaining for a speedrun, and viewers aren't interested in seeing how to gather items like a leaf or a music box. You have plenty of opportunities to kill hammer bros in the regular levels and do it with more speed and style. I'd prefer seeing some of the map hammer bros bypassed using a music box. You can turn some of them into coin ships if you like, but just don't go on the coin ship.
Oh, and getting fireworks, playing any of the bonus games, going into extra mushroom houses are all even worse choices for this run. It's a huge game and there's no way to showcase every possible feature in a way appropriate for a TAS. Going out on that boat to the islands in World 3 is a secret more interesting than playing bonus games, but even a 100% completion TAS should not attempt to show 100% of the game's features.
As for the issue of an all-levels run vs a uses-no-whistles run, I'd definitely prefer the latter and like to see Jugem's cloud applied to get past the slowest levels (i.e. auto-scrollers!) Sure it's a challenge to make those interesting, but in the end product those stages are inevitably the ones for which fast-forwarding is most desired.
-hanzou
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
hanzou wrote:
FODA, yes the P-wing will speed up vertical levels in Pipe Land, but I don't think it will help on airship levels because it'll take longer to kill the bosses without firepower/hammers.
hmm yea i think you guys are right. maybe there's some way to wall jump and get the scepter though?
hanzou wrote:
And those levels where you grab a flower are basically just the ones where the pathway isn't long enough for Mario to gain full speed in time. They make up only a small portion.
no, it seems that mario can go that extra bit faster and get the flower before it turns into a star. i know because i competed with genisto at the warpfull version and sometimes i got the flower at 1-2 even though i had full speed way before even reaching the black screen at the end.
Then why doesn't Genisto do this on 1-2 in his published movie? This would save time on 8-1, where he clearly had to stall slightly to avoid getting the star card.
edit: Nevermind. In Genisto's new movie he grabs the flower on 8-1, and flower comes before star in the sequence which he means in 8-1 he's using exactly the trick you're talking about.
-hanzou
Problem is, even "Get Hammer Bros. suit to kill bowser" is already a special qualifier. It takes more time to go through a mushroom house than it does to kill Bowser with fire power. You could aggregate up the time saved in killing Roy, Lemmy, Ludwig, Bowser and some Boom Booms with hammers instead of fire power and probably win out that way, but I don't think it would be good to stay in a hammers bros suit all the way through worlds 6 through 8 just to make up for the slowness of a mushroom house.
I think your a bit off here. I don't think "Get Hammer Bros. suit to kill bowser" is a requirement for the run, it's just what should be done to get the fastest time. If it is indeed slower to get the hammer bros suit, I'm sure Vatchern won't get it. I think Vatchern will just go for the fastest time, whatever it takes.
I think goals of a run are best listed with priorities in regard to each other:
(1) Complete all levels
(2) Win the game as fast as possible, so long as it does not conflict with the first goal
(3) Play individual levels as fast as possible, so long as it does not conflict with the first two goals
3 is kind of redundant in this case; the list is more to illustrate my point of having a clear priority of goals, so that when they conflict, a choice is already made.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Basically, my proposal was that if you swap (2) and (3) you end up with a better and faster-looking run while retaining clear consistent goals. In the order you've listed, I think the hammer bros suit would not be used at all.
-hanzou
if you swap (2) and (3) you end up with a better and faster-looking run while retaining clear consistent goals.
With 2 and 3 switched, it puts less importance on time spent on the world map and mushroom houses in favor of time saved in levels, which is where all the important action is. And I agree, it would make for a faster-looking run, even if the overall time was slightly higher, but personally, it's a tough call to make for me. On one hand, time spent in levels may be less, but on the other, the entire game time may be less. I can never decide which I think is more important.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
