Topic by Twisted_Eye

Posted: 5/17/2006 7:02 AM

Post subject: Jet Force Gemini

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Twisted_Eye

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How 'bout this awesome third person shmup? The SDA video is over 5 hours, though I'm somewhat confident that optimizing can cut off an hour at least. A good hour and a half of the SDA video was unskippable cinematics, seeing as every time you land on a planet there's a whooole sequence for it, as well as the other cinematics. Which is fine for first timers I guess, but that is a LOT of video. And why is the rest of the game 3 hours at high speed even? After getting all three characters to the rendezvous point you have to go BACK and make sure that alll of the Tribals are collected and alll of the lost ship parts are collected, and you can't do most of it without the improvements given to you at the rendezvous point. Aye yi yi. One big speederupper I'll get is Floyd--you can turn on the second player and control the little guy, who is basically a flying, infinite-ammo machine gun, which'll save a lot of ammo for my guy if two guns aren't necessary at once. Howeverrrr that'd mean even more button pressing I'll have to do per frame... A text file containing the fastest path through the game using the smallest amount of map movements and character changes possible --yes I checked, the lava areas that need Juno actually have doors that won't let anyone BUT Juno through, I could've had good timesavers in a couple stages if those weren't there. I have to take Juno to Spawnship just for a part because of this, whereas I otherwise would've just used Lupus or Vela since they both have to go there anyway. aaaaand a testrun through Goldwood, only...half optimized. Aaat the door with the lock you shoot with the machine gun I started giving up somewhat, being a testrun and all. This movie is just over 12 minutes long and took I think under two hours with a long break in the middle. So a full run wouldn't be quick or easy, and the end movie would be very long, which brings up another point. If it's going to be THAT long, and I have to 100% Tribal rescue and ship part collection anyway, why not a full 100% of the whole thing? First place on both racing arcade machine minigames, expert award on all five Floyd missions, and every weapon collected and used at least once (though not necessarily by all characters). Much of it would be just along the path anyway, the big timespender here would be 100% secret Totem collection, only good for Multiplayer, and would involve taking Lupus to Tawfret and Vela to hell and back and all that rot. It'd add another good half hour to the movie just for some minor entertainment (I mean, flamethrower, shocker, and fish food usage on ants are just great to watch hehe--yes, fish food, too) So yeah. I'm not promising on doing this game, just throwing it out there for discussion at least. I imagine a fully optimized movie with dead on aim while running sideways (since forward+strafeing gives a speed boost, just like Megaman 64 for example) would be just amazing to watch, but it would risk dragging on. --Oh another thing, for some reason, this game makes a .fla in Mupen for saves instead of sram or something, and when you watch a movie it still grabs existing save data, meaning that if you watch the movie, when you're done, YOU have to manually delete the save file if you want to watch the movie again from scratch or else it'll desync like a mofo.

Posted: 5/17/2006 7:10 AM

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Bag_of_Magic_Food

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Those are some good thoughts there. Yeah, this was the game where right when you think you're almost done, Suddenly Giant Fetch Quest! And yeah, like Bomberman 64, you may as well get every item anyway to be extra cool. I bet it'll be annoying always having to delete that save file, though, seeing how much trouble I was having with Knuckles Chaotix and Pokemon Gold. But yeah, go for extreme Floyd use! You can turn him on and off with the Start button (and whether he's on determines which player does the Floyd mini-games), but he makes a noise and blocks more of the screen when he's on, so I usually like to only turn him on when I'm actually using him to shoot. He basically shoots double pistol rounds, right? That might make for trickier ammo pickup planning, but I don't know.

put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude

Posted: 5/17/2006 7:20 AM

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Twisted_Eye

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Bag of Magic Food wrote:

(and whether he's on determines which player does the Floyd mini-games)

hoo boy you just saved me some frustration in the future then haha thank you Yeah, good idea, I imagine turning Floyd on JUST in the nick of time of needing him and then shutting him off would be pretty fun to watch. One thing to shoot? Start fire start what was that *something dies* I was wondering why I was so low on machine gun ammo in the second area and then on rewatching I just realized I wasted it all on the machine gun locked door, and I really should've picked off those ants in the second area the FIRST time I went through it; you only have to worry about the ones in the ruins half of the stage, thankfully. Oh and there's a sequence showing a life force door unlocking that shouldn't happen, I'll have to remember to NOT shoot the sniper drone when flailing around with the machine gun next time....though it is fun

Posted: 5/17/2006 9:18 AM

Post subject: Re: Jet Force Gemini

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Bag_of_Magic_Food

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Twisted Eye wrote:

If it's going to be THAT long, and I have to 100% Tribal rescue and ship part collection anyway, why not a full 100% of the whole thing? First place on both racing arcade machine minigames, expert award on all five Floyd missions, and every weapon collected and used at least once (though not necessarily by all characters). Much of it would be just along the path anyway, the big timespender here would be 100% secret Totem collection, only good for Multiplayer, and would involve taking Lupus to Tawfret and Vela to hell and back and all that rot. It'd add another good half hour to the movie just for some minor entertainment (I mean, flamethrower, shocker, and fish food usage on ants are just great to watch hehe--yes, fish food, too)

Uh oh... Wouldn't you have to get all the permanent health and weapon upgrades too? And there's the question of how those weapon upgrades should be distributed, since multiple characters have access to many of the same upgrades, but each one can only be gotten once. You know, maybe you could restrict the item pickups to the unlockable secrets that apply to the whole game regardless of save file, or you could just not bother with the "100%" extra stuff to make the movie slightly less ridiculous in length.

put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude

Posted: 5/17/2006 1:27 PM

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Maur

Joined: 1/31/2005
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I always just gave most of the health/weapon pickups to Juno because he's the one who fights the final boss. Oh, and 100% would also include picking up like 300 drone heads for the unlockables that gives. :P

Posted: 5/17/2006 5:16 PM

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Twisted_Eye

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Right, I knew I was forgetting a couple things. Health upgrades would not be a problem, they're all right along the path anyway. There're just six for every player, always right along where you are, usually right next to you when you walk into a room even. Most of the weapon upgrades are easy to get, too, but it would often mean bouncing around in weird places as well. You can only get upgrades for weapons you have, after all. It'd require returning to some levels again, like a handful of them require someone going to Sekhmet with a Magenta Key, and Vela doesn't have one at the start of the game and Juno never picks one up on my path. And as for Ant heads, ugh. Part of me is doubtful that killing only the ants I need to kill would give me 300 heads by the end of the game, and it'd take a bit of work figuring out just how many extra I need. I'd probably just mow down a couple ants that're in my way once in a while.

Posted: 5/17/2006 9:01 PM

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Bag_of_Magic_Food

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Yeah, you might have to slow down a little on each enemy to make sure that you get a perfect headshot and collect the head.

put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude

Posted: 12/10/2006 7:21 PM
(Edited: 12/11/2006 6:58 AM)

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Comicalflop

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well, I played the first level on Mupen, and watched Twisted Eye's test run, and watched 3/4 of the SDA run. I am quite impressed/intrigued with this game, to the point of consideration of TASing it. Before I make a decision about trying it out I'd like to ask a few questions about the game itself, and making the run itself: About the game itself: What's the projected length? how much can be improved from the SDA? What is the goal? Obviously it should be completed as fast as possible, what is the minimum required to beat this game? same as SDA, 100% Tribals and ship parts? What is skippable? are there any glitches? What is the bare minimum to complete the game (seeing as how 100% would take too long, despite mostly picking up all items anyways) does damage ignored look fine or sloppy? should there be speed/entertainment tradeoffs, like shooting every monster that appears insetad of running past 1/2 of them? Because the guns a'blazing in this game looks wonderful. I noticed that some rooms you need to kill enemies and some you don't, but importantly like the Mario 64 120 star should there be a entertainment/speed tradeoff? About making the TAS: What settings/plugins should be used? gln64 graphic made this weird transparent white overview of Juno's body on the top left corner, covering the weapon. I also noticed this with jabo, is it going to be that much of a problem? When you get hit, instead of the screen turning red it turns black for a few frames. again, is it going to be problematic? Floyd: is he nescessary to use? do you have to do the Floyd missions? I found that a TAS will carefully plan every shot that's made, making running out of ammo not a problem, plus there's ammo to be found everywhere. while an infinite ammo source sounds good, it doesn't seem nescessary if many monsters are skipped, and the ones that are killed don't waste ammo with crazy aimed shots. Also, I'd haate to have to try to make a 2 player TAS of this, since I do not have a second gamepad and I do not possess the skills to control two players at once. Does this movie desynch while making it? (This is a HUGE deal.) does the .fla file thing get too anoying or cause problems? How long will it take to make a movie like this? Would it be accepted in leiu of its length? Feedback would be greatly appreciated, plus a guru at the game to help me out if I do decide to do this.

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Posted: 12/11/2006 5:21 AM

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Comicalflop

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Just did some testing and straferunning works, as evident by the test run and my own toying around at very slow speeds. Figured out which analog/C button stuff to do and such, so I think I got that covered. If anyone has answers to some of the other technical/route questions posed that'd be great.

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Posted: 12/11/2006 2:35 PM

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Shadow_Byrn

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Okay! Finally something I can contribute a little bit to. I ain't no guru. But I DO know a whole lot about this one. 1st - 100% tribals AND ship parts are mandatory. Which means, IIRC, that Ffloyd missions are madatory too. Going out of your way for the secret weapons....not such a good idea. They're just kinda there, and really don't do too much extra. Taking damage is fine by me in this one because you don't slow down at all. You take the hit and don't even blink. But a constantly flashing screen would get annoying. Personally I think not getting hit AT ALL would be AMAZING. There's some parts where so much is happening all at once and not getting touched during them would be awesome. Guns a blazing where it doesn't slow you down. Like in the first actual action sequnce you only have to shoot down the snipers, but it wouldn't be any more/less time to hit the other bugs on route. Floyd would be cool when there's a whole lot of other things to hit. Use him to speed things up. Perhpas even as a turret. You would be running and Floyd could take out all of those little things around you that you couldn't hit. I don't recall lag being much apparent in this game. I can't really recall much in the way of glitches in this game. Well, good luck and hope that it works out for you!

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Posted: 12/11/2006 7:01 PM

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Comicalflop

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Excellent that I got one person willing to help out. I'm thinking of doing a test run today and tomorrow, but I'm not sure if I should make 1 controller or two to account for Floyd. Is he really going to be a huge time saver, and will I be able to use nitsuja's TAS input plugin for the 2nd controller and handle two characters are once?

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Posted: 12/11/2006 7:51 PM

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DK64_MASTER

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I'll definitely want to see this game. I never beat it, but got quite close to the end. I remember I loved the music in this game. Looking forward to any WIPS in the near future! This is a game that I think will look VERY impressive when completed. Trirocket launcher was the best!

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Posted: 12/11/2006 8:35 PM

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Comicalflop

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TriRockets are awesome... as is the machine gun, and the pistol for sniping (who needs the sniper?) Those three are going to be the most used guns in this game- are the others skippable? like flare for instance, the plasma shotgun can replace it with it's charged shots that light up areas, or simply watching the SDA to know where I'm going. Before I start a test run I really need to know if I should use one controller or two.

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Posted: 12/11/2006 9:28 PM

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JSmith

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Given that it's a test run, you should do it with 2 to see if/when/how much Floyd saves time.

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Posted: 12/11/2006 10:49 PM

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Comicalflop

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Floyd doesn't come until the 3rd world anyways. My test run would just be the first world. I started anyways using two controllers, because I felt like it and it seems that Floyd would be a time saver, possibly shortening most big fights in half. However, it sounds like an extra lot of work for some time saved, so maybe it'd be better if not. This is gonna be a hard enough project as it is. Poll: extra work for me with two controllers, or simplify and make it easier for me with 1 controller? (I prefer 1 controller.) I have two .m64's, one with 1 controller, one with 2. Haha, hm I seem to be making this test run veyr optimally, barely finished the second area with the first shooting of the flying thingies and already 176 rerecords, with optimal strafing and shooting. to compare, twsited eye's test run had 333 rerecords for the entire level. here's the very first two areas that I've done so far. Barely 1 minute of action, but you can see how this is less of a test run and more of the actual start of the run. JFG first two areas world 1 as stated before, whenever reviewing the movie file delete the .fla file in the mupen svae directory. I'm starting to get in the habit of automatically deleting it and making savestates to view sections over and over. On note, you must delete the .f;a if watching from the beginning; I've had no problem watching from a savestate without deleting the .fla. Later on as I progress I'll of course provide savestates. OT, I'm already 35 seconds ahead of SDA. Ok, the game's good enough to warrant an avatar change. I'm getting the hang of this- strafe running is hard at first, but I'm getting used to it. Shooting on the ground is easy because of auto aim, and manual shooting is soooo difficult in normal play, but easier to handle in frame advance. Time to get immersive- watch the SDA run nonstop, download the music to this game, etc.

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Posted: 12/12/2006 1:55 AM

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Comicalflop

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I discovered that in the very first ruins area where you first rescue tribals, the activation for opening the wooden door is shooting the sniper drone, so I side strafe one drone because it looks cool and is on the way, rescure the 2 tribals, then rush over to the sniper and quickly subdue him (thank you TAS input plugin and frame advance!!!) and 4 seconds later the doorway opens, so a big time saver there. That means that for each level I sould look for the trigger to each door, because apparently it's not kill every drone but could possibly be kill a certain type of monster, as evident here and probably elsewhere. Here's WIP up to the very first "area cleared" cutscene. JFG WIP someone comment plz Is there anyone up for encoding AVI's of this massive game?

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Posted: 12/12/2006 4:37 AM

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mmbossman

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I just watched this, and overall I'd say it's intersting, however I do have some suggestions. You seem to take some unnecessary hits, which to me distracted from the entertainment. I know it's unreasonable to try and avoid all damage, however it looks a little sloppy, the underground section in particular. You get tagged with a couple of shots from behind when you're running down the hallway that could easily be avoided, and I'm not sure but I think you could take out the grenade thrower at the beginning of the section before he has a chance to harm you. I also think it would be beneficial to blow up the crate that contains the yellow key while you're strafing around getting the tribals, since it wouldn't cost time and it would look more cleanly planned I think. Props to the first part of the level (above ground), it looked clean and quick. I think you have the beginnings of an impressive run here, albeit a long one. I was a big fan of this game, but only played through it 100% once (although I've picked it up and dropped it many times). I"ll definitely look forward to any progress and updates

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Posted: 12/12/2006 4:52 AM

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VANDAL

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This game looks pretty nice for N64. I've never played this game nor do I know what's going on. If you know what you are doing and feel it's optimized to a high point then by all means keep going. I actually haven't found this to be very interesting (the premise this game leads on) but maybe as the game progresses it gets better. I don't know.

Posted: 12/12/2006 4:59 AM

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Comicalflop

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Alright, so I'll redo the underground section. The style I was trying to get was that of the Goldeneye videos, where some enemies are hit and some aren't, and damage is ignored, based on whether hitting the enemy on the way didn't waste time or not. But I think I had a few missed shots, and damage is in fact unavoidable in most cases without slowing down, I want to maintain a constant speed. I think that the strafing in this game is extremely difficult, especially in hallways and making turns, so that amounted to some of the "mistakes" because at the angle that Juno is facing he can't hit enemies. But I'll try to hit more enemies, have no missed shots, and try out the suggestion for getting the key. I can't promise less damage taken, since life is a resource and it is best to just ignore it especially since the gems replenish it and they're not hard to collect.

VANDAL wrote:

This game looks pretty nice for N64. I've never played this game nor do I know what's going on. If you know what you are doing and feel it's optimized to a high point then by all means keep going. I actually haven't found this to be very interesting (the premise this game leads on) but maybe as the game progresses it gets better. I don't know.

This is going to sound weird... but in a way I don't know what I'm doing. I have never played the game before, and basing everything on personal intuition on how to do things faster plus the SDA run to know where I'm going. Don't let it put you off, because I'm learning the ropes extremely fast, and have already found time savers and optimizations. I'm going to redo the underground section but yeah optimization and entertainment is my goal, as well as having extremely intense action scenarios, guns blazing, and explosions galore. My guess is the main way someone will get bored with this game is the length; there are a lot of cutscenes which aren't skippable. In addition, there are moments where no action is taking place, and of course this is the beginning of the game, so not a lot of action yet. But just wait, it'll get better as the game progress and more guns are acquired.

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Posted: 12/12/2006 6:21 AM

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DK64_MASTER

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Ok, now that I've watched it, I'm happy with how it is looking! It does make a very pretty game to TAS. The only parts I didn't like is where you took damage, and the camera view in the first part of the first level. I forgot, is the camera fixed? It just looks really strange seeing the guy (forgot his name) look sideways all the time. It looks like he's got some sort of back problem :D. You did the first level pretty quickly (in terms of time), so I take it, you are pretty comfortable with this game. It seems pretty robust to emulation desync issues, too. As all games, I'm sure as you go along, this game will just get easier to TAS. I bid you good luck, and eagerly await any WIPs.

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Posted: 12/12/2006 6:31 AM
(Edited: 12/12/2006 9:44 PM)

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Comicalflop

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DK64_MASTER wrote:

Ok, now that I've watched it, I'm happy with how it is looking! It does make a very pretty game to TAS. The only parts I didn't like is where you took damage, and the camera view in the first part of the first level. I forgot, is the camera fixed? It just looks really strange seeing the guy (forgot his name) look sideways all the time. It looks like he's got some sort of back problem :D. You did the first level pretty quickly (in terms of time), so I take it, you are pretty comfortable with this game. It seems pretty robust to emulation desync issues, too. As all games, I'm sure as you go along, this game will just get easier to TAS. I bid you good luck, and eagerly await any WIPs.

I'm trying to take out places where he receives damage, but do note that taking damage in this game is going to be inevitable. At these early stages it's easier to avoid, but at a certain point damage is just going to have to be taken, and actually in this level is where that trend starts. remember, it's not takes damage to save time, it's ignore damage to save time. I have life as a resource, and spending extra time just to avoid being hit is not what I want. Granted, I'm redoing the underground and found a few ways to avoid damage, but when things get rough or I'm racing past enemies relle fast or in the middle of a huge bloodbath, expect damage because, quite frankly no damage run is not possible with this game and it'd be trivial to do so. Camera view is fixed when strafing. There is no camera work in this game like in Mario 64, the only closest thing is using R to aim for first person that is solely going to be used for sniping targets and when nescessary. So get used to the camera angle, because strafing is faster walking speed and it looks like I'm gonna be strafing throughout the whole run. (it's going to make Lupus's upgrade to a tank look really weird when strafing I can imagine...) The game is robust to emulator problems except of course the screen going black for a few frames instead of red, and the weird thing in the upper left corner. besides that, no problems. and no desynchs!!!! :) The game is actually going to get harder as I get along, because the levels will become much more difficult and bigger shooting bloodbaths will ensue. and since I don't know where shit is and have to refer to the SDA run, I'm gonna have happy moments in dark places. NOT! In terms of not taking too long for the first part... I don't know the projected finish date, since I don't know how well I'll handle this game or how long it'll take. Figure no less than 6 months if I go like clockwork. This is a long run remember, and definetly will have parts where I progress maybe a few seconds in one TAS sitting. It's very like that the FODA process of a one-year-long-to-make run could happen. We're talking more than twice the movie length of the Mario 64 120 Star run, although thankfully a lot of it is cutscenes. I wonder if cutscenes can be removed in AVI.... that'd definetly increase watchablity.

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Posted: 12/12/2006 6:54 AM

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DK64_MASTER

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comicalflop wrote:

Camera view is fixed when strafing. There is no camera work in this game like in Mario 64, the only closest thing is using R to aim for first person that is solely going to be used for sniping targets and when nescessary. So get used to the camera angle, because strafing is faster walking speed and it looks like I'm gonna be strafing throughout the whole run.

OH!! Strafing, that's what you were doing! No wonder it looked familiar but so out of place.

comicalflop wrote:

I wonder if cutscenes can be removed in AVI.... that'd definetly increase watchablity.

It might, especially the whole ship enters the level cutscene. But the music is awesome. I remember downloading various MP3 of JFG music through NAPSTER (yes, napster) back in 2000/2001. I think the Mine level is my favorite. In terms of removing cutscenes, I doubt that will fly with Bisqwit and other encoders. Besides, AVIs aren't used to judge the movie, so I'd worry more about the cutscenes affecting the acceptance of this movie. Honestly, I think this game is popular enough to guarantee an acceptance despite the cutscenes. But that's a long way from now. Good luck!

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Posted: 12/12/2006 3:33 PM

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Comicalflop

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Do you know how pissed I'd be if I spend 6-12 months only to have it no not accepted because of the length? That would ruin everything! Since the number of N64 TASes that people are making is increasing, I think the trend of N64 games that are longer are is going to start a trend. Most N64 games are long, and people are going to have to get used to TASes that are way over 2 hours. This might be the first real long N64 game, since so far Zelda is the longest with 2:30. Currently I'm at the underground having just entered the big room with the tribals to rescue and the key to get. I used the different C button to see if while strafing I can turn the other direction and hopefully angle it better to hit the box while collecting the tribals (I already shot the box twice from a distance from entering the room.)

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Posted: 12/12/2006 3:37 PM

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Bag_of_Magic_Food

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I'll probably vote Yes just for being able to finish it, since it's such a great long game!

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Posted: 12/12/2006 4:38 PM

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Shadow_Byrn

Joined: 3/16/2006
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Okay, I've tried watching it, and I guess my ROM is bad or something. I can't see a thing pase name entry. And Unless you're name is 111111111111 I think it desynced. I'll ROM hunt for a bit, but would it be possible to .AVI this? Or would that be too bothersome?

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