RTA timing starts when you gain control of the character and ends at a common ending point (in this case, when the princess appears after Bowser is defeated).
TAS timing starts from power-on and ends at the last input needed to complete the game. A TAS would start from 0:01 in the video and end at 10:04 when Mario throws the second Mechakoopa.
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2822
Location: Northern California
The RTA would have to be a 9:52 or 9:53 to beat the TAS time. RTAs have roughly a 7.5 second advantage over TASes due to starting timing later (gaining control of Mario as opposed to console-on), but about 4 seconds of that is lost due to RTAs stopping timing later (losing control of Mario as opposed to ending input the same frame the last mecha-koopa is thrown). In other words, RTA timing has roughly a 3.5 second advantage over TAS timing.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family.
Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
The TAS doesn't actually throw the last mecha-koopa. They end timing before the last mecha-koopa is even thrown by Bowser. Technically this strat loses real time compared to RTA because Mario takes damage and the damage animation costs a bunch of frames, but for TAS timing it doesn't matter because the movie has already ended by this point.
This alone should be reason to not compare TAS to RTA. idk why people care whether RTA wins or not. RTAs are a skill showcase, TASes are for entertaining an audience. They have different rules, different goals, and even different communities.
Joined: 3/2/2010
Posts: 2178
Location: A little to the left of nowhere (Sweden)
jlun2 wrote:
Scepheo wrote:
nathanisbored1 wrote:
idk why people care whether RTA wins or not
Because it's an indication that the TAS needs an update.
Well, not always, since that would mean runs like Ocarina of Time would always be beaten by RTA. :P
Don't forget to adjust the timing method. ;)
Zelda-RTA timing makes the TAS sub-17 minutes.
If an RTA and a TAS is timed using the same method and the RTA comes out on top, then, as Scepheo said, the TAS definitely needs a revisit.
EDIT: This topic really needs to stop derailing.
Those of us on "warped" team (and most/all other SMW TASers) don't think that cloud should be in the TAS. So it won't be. Our TAS is still incredibly optimal and I don't see how this warrants the TAS getting an update. It may be getting (very small) update soon due to new strat, but it won't involve cloud.
Obviously I could. But I don't know anything about SMW TASing (except that you have to jump continuously to keep your max-speed), and I couldn't reach the quarter level optimization that the previous warps run reached.
I problably made mistakes, sorry for my bad English, I'm French :v
Those of us on "warped" team (and most/all other SMW TASers) don't think that cloud should be in the TAS. So it won't be. Our TAS is still incredibly optimal and I don't see how this warrants the TAS getting an update. It may be getting (very small) update soon due to new strat, but it won't involve cloud.
Can you summarize the main reasons of why eating a Chargin' Chuck as small Mario should be forbidden in any category, but executes arbitrary code and game end glitch?
jimsfriend wrote:
I can't do anything to help it.
You could make a TAS of it yourself.
Well, after a decision is made here, a TAS that uses the cloud glitch should not obsolete the warps run. Hopefully, anyone can use the Cloud in Super Demo World 120-exit without glitches.
Those of us on "warped" team (and most/all other SMW TASers) don't think that cloud should be in the TAS. So it won't be. Our TAS is still incredibly optimal and I don't see how this warrants the TAS getting an update. It may be getting (very small) update soon due to new strat, but it won't involve cloud.
Can you summarize the main reasons of why eating a Chargin' Chuck as small Mario should be forbidden in any category, but executes arbitrary code and game end glitch?
Masterjun wrote:
The glitch always jumps to open bus. The reason why the game can continue is just because it managed to get back to the normal code again, but the fact that it executed open bus makes it not different from the ACE run.
So you could say: "If you get the cloud you might as well get directly to the credits."
Warning: Might glitch to creditsI will finish this ACE soon as possible
(or will I?)
The glitch always jumps to open bus. The reason why the game can continue is just because it managed to get back to the normal code again, but the fact that it executed open bus makes it not different from the ACE run.
So you could say: "If you get the cloud you might as well get directly to the credits."
And you could say: "If you get the cloud you might decide not to use its ACE effect because the category you're TASing bans it."
I problably made mistakes, sorry for my bad English, I'm French :v
The glitch always jumps to open bus. The reason why the game can continue is just because it managed to get back to the normal code again, but the fact that it executed open bus makes it not different from the ACE run.
So you could say: "If you get the cloud you might as well get directly to the credits."
And you could say: "If you get the cloud you might decide not to use its ACE effect because the category you're TASing bans it."
The glitch always jumps to open bus. The reason why the game can continue is just because it managed to get back to the normal code again, but the fact that it executed open bus makes it not different from the ACE run.
So you could say: "If you get the cloud you might as well get directly to the credits."
And you could say: "If you get the cloud you might decide not to use its ACE effect because the category you're TASing bans it."
Inane.
(I can't argue this shit. To do so would be pointless.)
I thought it was time we made a post detailing "Yoshi-drop swap" glitch, which is a glitch whereby Yoshi despawns on the same frame a new sprite spawns in the same slot and, for some sprites, the sprite will warp to Mario's position and we'll keep Yoshi in the next level/area. For a long time we didn't know why this worked or which sprites it work with. We've known for a while but I don't think the information was made public, so thanks to nathanisbored for his research.
This bug has several advantages.
The sprite teleports to Mario's position.
We can change the colour of the Yoshi based on the palette of the new sprite.
We can ditch Yoshi in unneeded levels and recover him in the next area (useful for flying levels).
Yoshi uses sprite table $7E00C2 to determine his current state. #$00 = not riding, #$01 = riding, #$02 = running away (hurt). The bug occurs when a sprite spawns in Yoshi's (now unused) slot using an initial value of #$01. The game determines that Mario must be riding this sprite and, as such, teleports the new sprite to underneath him. It quickly corrects itself (as there are no Yoshi's present) but the one frame is sufficient to trigger the glitch. This isn't such a technical explanation but I hope it is sufficient.
We can also trick a property of other sprites, sprite table $7E160E. The game uses this table as the ID of the sprite Yoshi is eating, but it is set to -1 (255) when there is no sprite. If Yoshi swallows a sprite on the frame he despawns AND we spawn a new sprite in that slot, that sprite will spawn with -1 in that table. This seems to have no useful effect so far. I've only found that we can turn mushrooms/flowers into berries and despawn goal tapes, which is less than useful :p I'm sure there's more undiscovered bugs regarding this.
Edit: By the way, this is used in CHEESE BRIDGE AREA in our 96-exit run. The reason we get a glitched-looking Yoshi is because the sprite we swap with is tileset-specific, which means it uses the last two graphics pages. Thus, Yoshi loads his graphics from these pages too, which corrupts his image.
Edit 2: Here are the sprites that will cause the bug. I used a script for this, and as such it may not catch certain edge cases (the list does not contain Mushroom, which will work, but only when stationary). But this list is mostly complete; I don't want to manually check all...
Thanks bahamete! Cool list :D
So why does golden yoshi not carry into the overworld? I guess the palette that he uses has the same value as having no Yoshi does, or something
The glitch always jumps to open bus. The reason why the game can continue is just because it managed to get back to the normal code again, but the fact that it executed open bus makes it not different from the ACE run.
So you could say: "If you get the cloud you might as well get directly to the credits."
And you could say: "If you get the cloud you might decide not to use its ACE effect because the category you're TASing bans it."
Getting the cloud is ACE
But what's the code for getting the cloud?
How can people easily do it in RTA? I see that they always scroll the screen, so is pressing R the code's input?
@bahamete: nice info, thanks for sharing!
The glitch always jumps to open bus. The reason why the game can continue is just because it managed to get back to the normal code again, but the fact that it executed open bus makes it not different from the ACE run.
So you could say: "If you get the cloud you might as well get directly to the credits."
And you could say: "If you get the cloud you might decide not to use its ACE effect because the category you're TASing bans it."
Getting the cloud is ACE
But what's the code for getting the cloud?
How can people easily do it in RTA? I see that they always scroll the screen, so is pressing R the code's input?
Masterjun wrote:
Fog wrote:
Eszik wrote:
I have a simple question, I read the whole thread but couldn't find an anwser : Is ACE needed to get the cloud, or is it getting the cloud that leads to ACE?
ACE is needed to get the cloud.
Since when?
Warning: Might glitch to creditsI will finish this ACE soon as possible
(or will I?)
Therefore, I fail to see why the cloud can't be used in the traditional any% (now warps) TAS. What's the problem if the glitch jumps to open bus, but the player can go on without using ACE and without getting any other benefits afterwards?
Eszik wrote:
Masterjun wrote:
jlun2 wrote:
Eszik wrote:
But they would also use the cloud only as an item - and that would be a different category, because it would avoid ACE.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but...
The sole use of the cloud already leads to ACE. In fact, when others commented that real time runners don't use ACE, I think they just refer to them using ACE but only able to input 1 byte of instruction before the game stops reading from the controller after 1 frame.
You're wrong. It doesn't.
Then why couldn't we use the cloud in a non-ACE run ?
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands
Masterjun explained it to me on IRC - eating a Chargin' Chuck as small Mario has two different effects (in order):
- It puts a cloud in the inventory
- Execution is then sent to open bus.
When execution is in the open bus, that's where ACE is performed. The ACE that is done in the realtime runs is simply "jump back to normal execution" - otherwise, the game would probably just crash.
So getting the cloud does not require ACE, but getting the cloud and then resuming gameplay afterward does require ACE.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Upon entering Open Bus (during a realtime run), does the program counter ever reach the controller registers? If not, it can't exactly be called ACE.
It's possible to do ACE without program counter hitting the controllers. For example, SotN ACE just uses the inventory as code to patch two existing pieces of code together. (Which is why it should be possible on real PSX, though no one has done it yet.)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Patashu wrote:
Which is why it should be possible on real PSX, though no one has done it yet.
Was romscout informed?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
