Here is an improvement of 330 frames (5.5 seconds) to the previous run.
ROM version has been switched to PRG0. Reason: More interesting level names during the ending sequence. This run will still sync on ROM version PRG1, but please encode the run with the ROM version PRG0.
adelikat: Like many other TASers, this run is what brought me to TASvideos.org and to the art of TASing. So it means a lot to me that I was able to contribute something to the perfection of it.
Scrolling glitch and speed/entertainment tradeoff stuff
A new method was used in 8-Ship and 8-Tank2 to scroll very far to the right of the screen near the end of the level to enter the pipes about 45 frames faster in each case. This was at the tradeoff of some of the 1-up bouncing in those levels. Please see this alternate run, which is 90 frames slower, but the authors, of course, manage to get 99 lives magnificently™. The warpless run also contains more 1-up bouncing and does not use this glitch. (However, neither of these runs sync on PRG1.)
Level by level
Level
Frames gained
Reason
Frames sacrificed
Reason
Total Gain
1-1
1
Less hammer brother RNG lag
0
-
1
1-2
32
Sliding speed abuse
5
Bad hammer brother luck later forced this loss anyway, so we took a flower card by delaying the level entrance
27
1-3
2
Greater precision
4
Better hammer brother luck
-2
1-Fortress
10
Better running at the beginning, starting flight later
0
-
10
Map
1
-
0
-
1
8-Tanks
4
Reduced lag and better pipe entrance
0
-
4
8-Ship
51
Scroll glitch to the right side of the screen, better time countdown
0
-
51
Pipe
1
Subpixel abuse allowed farther sliding
0
-
1
Map
4
Better luck on the bridge
0
-
4
8-Airship
7
Better pipe entrance and boom-boom fight
0
-
7
Pipe
1
Subpixel abuse allowed farther sliding
0
-
1
8-1
1
Greater precision
0
-
1
8-2
13
Greater precision and sliding speed abuse
0
-
13
8-Fortress
3
Greater precision
0
-
3
Pipe
1
Subpixel abuse allowed farther sliding
0
-
1
8-Tanks2
42
Scroll glitch to the right side of the screen
0
-
42
8-Castle
138
New route
0
-
138
Bowser
22
New strategy
0
-
22
End
5
Better time countdown
0
-
5
Total
339
Thanks for watching!
9
-
330
Bisqwit: Got no adequate words to congratulate and praise :(
We're back where we started, only 40 levels stronger.
In any case, accepting and encoding. :)
The workbench is by no means useless, but in an ideal situation it would not be needed.
Particularly important is the discussion forums. When you submit a movie, a topic will automatically be created for your submission. It allows people to comment on your movie and vote for it. You are encouraged to follow the discussion and answer questions that may come up after submitting the movie
The Judge Guidelines also refer to using the Workbench forum as a useful guide to determine publishability.
If you deem it useless and unneeded, you basically deem the community's opinion worthless and unneeded. This is how things are tied together here, at least how I see it.
Obviously, some runs do not need that much review by people, so it is expected that they get published faster (I have given up any hope of getting things changed here), though.
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
mmbossman wrote:
The workbench may be worthless to a certain extent, especially for runs that have been improved multiple times. However, it has shown to have worth for runs that have questionable entertainment value as compared to the published movie, questionable technical improvements as opposed to what is known to be possible, and for games for which a run has never been done.
Xkeeper wrote:
Obviously, some runs do not need that much review by people, so it is expected that they get published faster (I have given up any hope of getting things changed here), though.
Yes (although it is still of some worth; SMB3 Warpless for examples).
I was mostly pointing out Kyrsimys' thought that ideally it would be completely useless.
Well, yes. In an ideal situation discussion would not be needed. The discussion is needed only to help the judges make a decision, and that's what the workbench is for. Of course I'm not saying there shouldn't be any discussion whatsoever, there are plenty of other forums here to discuss runs.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Kyrsimys wrote:
I have absolutely no idea where you got that from. He asked why we need a workbench if runs are published this quickly. I replied that because the decision making is not as easy for all games as it is for this one and because Bisqwit and the other judges don't have an infinite amount of time. I'll reiterate: The workbench is by no means useless, but in an ideal situation it would not be needed.
So, you're saying that for the most recent "quickly published because it's a popular game" runs, the encoders only had a precious few hours once it was submitted, or else they'd never get the chance to look at it because they're busy? that's complete bullshit and you know it.
I don't know about you, but one of the greatest parts about this site for me is the workbench, where a run an author worked long and hard on is shown to the community, and the community gets to take their time and vote on what they thought of it, and submit feedback, point out possible mistakes, and await to see the judge's final result. This luxurious 3 course meal is being given the fast food treatment, and it ends up, rushed, greasy, and the feeling of ickyness in the stomach.
mmbossman wrote:
So unless you had planned on voting no for any of the "fast published" movies, and had a damn good reason for it, please be quiet, because it doesn't solve anything.
Turn a blind eye, eh? You know that's how some of corruption in politics works?
You're basically saying that my opinion does not matter, and is interfering. I'm sorry, where the hell do I get the gall to think my opinion matters? Jesus fucking christ. I was under the opinion everyone's opinion matters, but I guess I was way out of left field, huh buddy?
If you really wanted to know:
I was going to vote yes on Gimmick, but it got published too fast. So there's no point.
I was going to watch the warped SMB3, but that got published before I was even aware it was submitted. Useless for me to vote at this point.
The Warpless run Tompa has been arguing has a missed trick that means it's not optimal, and should be redone. he was promptly ignored, and it was published. I also did not watch it before it got published. I would possibly vote no on it for that missed trick, but too late now eh?
I was going to vote no on the harmony of dissonance run if I could find any improvements, improvements which I SAID I HAD THE TIME FOR. I was promptly ignored, and it was published.
So really, the whole "respect others thing" has taken a real nosedive lately, which is why I'm really pissed off.
Maybe this is because I feel authors should be treated equally, and this has not been the case. Maybe it's because I've always admired the workbench process, and hate to see it made obsolete by publish-trigger-happy encoders. Maybe it's because I work in customer service, where "first come first serve" and other wonderful etiquette guidelines are what we adhere to; but here, someone who submits their run, waits for weeks, then has some asshole submit a popular run and has theirs encoded in 2 microseconds will naturally feel a little let down at being ignored in favor for some other person.
Or maybe I'm crazy, and the current attitude of disrespecting people should be the norm.
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
Comicalflop wrote:
You're basically saying that my opinion does not matter, and is interfering. I'm sorry, where the hell do I get the gall to think my opinion matters? Jesus fucking christ. I was under the opinion everyone's opinion matters, but I guess I was way out of left field, huh buddy?
Your opinion matters if you have something productive to say, such as your examples with the warpless run. But you seem to have the attitude that just because you didn't have a chance to vote, it automatically shouldn't have been published, while if you had voted, you wouldn't have posed any potential problems to hinder a publication.
Also, if all runs stayed in the workbench until someone else had the time to make a new movie (eg HoD), we'd never have anything published. Also, you never said you would actively start looking, just that you might, although you'd probably focus on MM.
I also don't think that publishing a certain movie before another is disrespect to either author or their run. But if you do, I guess that's just a difference of opinion, huh?
The thing is with popular runs like this, it gets quite a few votes very quickly and they are all "Yes" votes, which is most likely why they get published so fast.
Reguardless of whether it was published or not I like to add my opinion of the movie by voting. With a run like this it is obvious that it will be published because it is a significant improvement of a Mario game. Any new Mario that is a faster run gets about 98% "yes" votes and 2% "no" votes, so in this case I really don't think a vote matters because I think it would be published anyways.
Super Mario Bros. console speedrunner
- Andrew Gardikis
The Warpless run Tompa has been arguing has a missed trick that means it's not optimal, and should be redone. he was promptly ignored, and it was published. I also did not watch it before it got published. I would possibly vote no on it for that missed trick, but too late now eh?
I can't find where he mentioned his concern anywhere on the warpless submission.. (until just now as I'm writing this post (which he has edited away into nothing)) Let me explain how that discussion has progressed, because it's not what Tompa has implied:
Tompa had shown us that you can go down the right side of a pipe one block too far on the right. Then he told us "not to miss his trick". Through all our testing (and regardless of what Tompa tells you, we did test it quite a bit), we were never able to do this trick on the left side of any pipe, or while going up a pipe.
So, at least, we didn't ignore his idea, I'm happy he shared it with us, and we did try to use it. But we couldn't make it work to our advantage, and as far as I know, neither has he, which makes his persistence of us using it all the more frustrating to me.
If I'm wrong on anything, please let me know.
--
Another thing worth mentioning is that for levels that applied, we (usually adelikat, heh) set the speed very high to see what the next frame we coudl finish the level on was while still keeping good hammer brother movement. If this was far out of reach, there's no need to look for every little pixel boost in the level, and instead we concentrated on doing entertaining-looking things instead.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
I have absolutely no idea where you got that from. He asked why we need a workbench if runs are published this quickly. I replied that because the decision making is not as easy for all games as it is for this one and because Bisqwit and the other judges don't have an infinite amount of time. I'll reiterate: The workbench is by no means useless, but in an ideal situation it would not be needed.
So, you're saying that for the most recent "quickly published because it's a popular game" runs, the encoders only had a precious few hours once it was submitted, or else they'd never get the chance to look at it because they're busy? that's complete bullshit and you know it.
No no, now you misunderstood something. My point was that the workbench is needed because Bisqwit does not have the time to watch every single run in frame advance looking for possible improvements personally, and in some cases he needs input from other people. In this case, he did not need any input from anyone, as he could easily make the decision himself. Ideally, every case would be like this and no input from others would be needed.
Comicalflop wrote:
I don't know about you, but one of the greatest parts about this site for me is the workbench, where a run an author worked long and hard on is shown to the community, and the community gets to take their time and vote on what they thought of it, and submit feedback, point out possible mistakes, and await to see the judge's final result. This luxurious 3 course meal is being given the fast food treatment, and it ends up, rushed, greasy, and the feeling of ickyness in the stomach.
Wow, you call waiting in line a treat? I guess we're just different.
Comicalflop wrote:
Turn a blind eye, eh? You know that's how some of corruption in politics works?
I think mmbossman's point was that there is absolutely no point in the discussion when it consists of comments like "Yes vote" and "Great movie!", which have no effect on the movie being published, at least in this case where the default was that the movie was going to be published as an improvement to an already awesome run. And I agree with him, this (publishing things quickly) is a totally ridiculous issue to complain about.
Comicalflop wrote:
You're basically saying that my opinion does not matter, and is interfering. I'm sorry, where the hell do I get the gall to think my opinion matters? Jesus fucking christ. I was under the opinion everyone's opinion matters, but I guess I was way out of left field, huh buddy?
I'm not sure whether you mean that your vote matters or that your opinion about fast publishing matters. If it's the former then no, your vote doesn't matter. If Bisqwit deemed this worthy of publishing, you whining about it doesn't matter. If it's the latter well sure, you've got a right to an opinion, but then again so does Hitler.
Comicalflop wrote:
I was going to vote yes on Gimmick, but it got published too fast. So there's no point.
Well duh. Voting itself is not the purpose of the workbench, helping judges is. This time they just didn't need your help.
Comicalflop wrote:
I was going to watch the warped SMB3, but that got published before I was even aware it was submitted. Useless for me to vote at this point.
So what? You can still watch it and enjoy it just as much as you would've enjoyed it when it was still in the queue. Or does the act of voting itself and "making a difference" (which you would not have done here as the movie would've been published no matter what you or anyone else would have voted) just give you some sort of pleasure? Is that was this is about? That you get to say "yes" and pretend like it made a difference? I really honestly don't understand so please enlighten me.
Comicalflop wrote:
The Warpless run Tompa has been arguing has a missed trick that means it's not optimal, and should be redone. he was promptly ignored, and it was published. I also did not watch it before it got published. I would possibly vote no on it for that missed trick, but too late now eh?
Too late for what? Are you saying the run can never be redone and republished? There's no harm done here. Even if a new version is submitted two minutes after the previous gets published, the only thing that is lost is the publisher's time, which he himself chose to donate.
Comicalflop wrote:
I was going to vote no on the harmony of dissonance run if I could find any improvements, improvements which I SAID I HAD THE TIME FOR. I was promptly ignored, and it was published.
Yes? So what? Is something irreplacable lost here?
Comicalflop wrote:
Maybe this is because I feel authors should be treated equally, and this has not been the case.
Are you saying someone is favoring one author over the others? Who's that?
Comicalflop wrote:
someone who submits their run, waits for weeks, then has some asshole submit a popular run and has theirs encoded in 2 microseconds will naturally feel a little let down at being ignored in favor for some other person.
Yeah, what bastards they are for TASing great games! Are you for real? You are actually saying people who run games like SMB and Mega Man are idiots who ruin it for other people? And finally, once more: this is Bisqwit's site. If he looks at the workbench and sees an incredible improvement to SMB3, one of his favorite childhood games next to GARU GARU GARUPPO 4 - SAKE-SAN RETURNS in the queue, he has a right to choose the one he is more interested in. Wouldn't you? It's not like runs sit in the queue for six months anymore like they used to. Just be happy that it's not worse.
Comicalflop wrote:
ok ok ok ... this is getting ridiculous. You people seem to forget that this thread is for discussing my (and my partner's) awesomeness. Now commence the awesome saying!
I'm sciencing as fast as I can !
______________________________________
<adelikat> once more balls enter the picture, everything gets a lot more entertraining
<adelikat> mmmmm yummy penises
I don't typically agree with Kyrsimys a whole bunch, but seriously comicalflop you are so very very off here, just read K's post a dozen times until it sinks in how unreasonable you're being.
imo.
Going to stick my hand in the hornet hive here and address all the arguments I see against publishing movies too quickly:
Not enough people have a chance to watch it and comment on it.
I don't see how the fact that a movie is published or not negatively affects the audience's ability to watch or comment on it. In fact, publishing it quickly would achieve the opposite effect.
There isn't enough time to evaluate it and check for mistakes.
Even if an improvement is discovered a few minutes after publication, is there a problem with simply obsoleting or canceling the current movie and publishing the improvement? This doesn't seem to be either a common or important enough problem to warrant delaying an obviously publishable movie.
It's unfair to the less popular movies.
Less popular movies by nature take longer to evaluate than the popular ones; a movie which should be published shouldn't be delayed because another movie which should be published is taking longer to assess. An established maximum workbench time would help in cases where unpopular movies stay in there for far longer than they should, but a minimum would only serve to hurt the more popular movies.
Giving a minimum amount of time in the workbench would help standardize publications.
This one has some validity. Standardization for the sake of standardization when the movie in question is obviously publishable material, however, is not something I agree with. Of course, this is merely a matter of opinion.
But I digress. You guys are awesome.
Going to stick my hand in the hornet hive here and address all the arguments I see against publishing movies too quickly:
Not enough people have a chance to watch it and comment on it.
I don't see how the fact that a movie is published or not negatively affects the audience's ability to watch or comment on it. In fact, publishing it quickly would achieve the opposite effect.
There isn't enough time to evaluate it and check for mistakes.
Even if an improvement is discovered a few minutes after publication, is there a problem with simply obsoleting or canceling the current movie and publishing the improvement? This doesn't seem to be either a common or important enough problem to warrant delaying an obviously publishable movie.
It's unfair to the less popular movies.
Less popular movies by nature take longer to evaluate than the popular ones; a movie which should be published shouldn't be delayed because another movie which should be published is taking longer to assess. An established maximum workbench time would help in cases where unpopular movies stay in there for far longer than they should, but a minimum would only serve to hurt the more popular movies.
Giving a minimum amount of time in the workbench would help standardize publications.
This one has some validity. Standardization for the sake of standardization when the movie in question is obviously publishable material, however, is not something I agree with. Of course, this is merely a matter of opinion.
But I digress. You guys are awesome.
I agree with everything in this post.
We are awesome =D
I'm sciencing as fast as I can !
______________________________________
<adelikat> once more balls enter the picture, everything gets a lot more entertraining
<adelikat> mmmmm yummy penises
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
(3575)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
So, did you guys try going through the wall in 2-P at the beginning? That might save some time.
Also, maybe it is worth testing if mario's arm pumping saves time. Afterall, it worked in Super Metroid.
