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Similarly to the previous movie, this is more a fixup to make use of new glitches than a full re-run. Although Nitsuja was not actively involved in any part of this improvement, I list him as coauthor because his input stil comprises more than 90% of the movie.

Game objectives

  • Emulator used: Gens 9.5c + S3KCamhack + Speedometer + SolidityViewer + (partial)HitboxDisplay
  • Ignores delays caused by bonus effects
  • Aims for fastest (primarily in-game) time
  • Takes Damage to save time
  • Abuses death
  • Abuses programming errors
  • Counts time spent dying
  • One player controls two characters

Comments

Hydrocity zone 2, Launch Base zone 1 and 2, and Hidden Palace Zone are improved. All other levels are untouched, except for correction due to changes in lag, and some quick pauses inserted to correct luck differences.
I PM'ed Nitsuja requesting permission to use the input from his TAS, but I have not heard back, and it appears he has not even read the PM. Since I have no other way to get in contact with him, I've gone ahead and submitted this and credited him as coauthor. I _will_ cancel this submission if he contacts me and tels me that I do not have permission to use his work.

Stage by stage comments

Hydrocity Zone, Act 2

This is the only new trick used that Nitsuja was aware of when he submitted his previous run. He did not use this trick because it requires dying in order to perform. The death takes 9 seconds, but removes the boundary lock which prevents the player from zipping past the left edge of the level and saving 24.
This is also the only level where none of Nitsuja's input survives.

Launch Base Zone, Act 1

The first four seconds of this level are Nitsuja's input.
The first thing you'll notice is that it takes a long time for me to reach the elevator. The reason for this is because the Flybot will unload if it gets too far behind, and the new trick requires taking damage while entering the elevator.
By taking damage while entering the elevator, control is maintained while inside the elevator. By using a spindash or two to pause the camera, the elevator can be made to unload by getting too far ahead of the screen. This leaves sonic in the middle of the floor, with the "Ice Cap" glitch in effect. By zipping left in the floor, Sonic can go past the level boundary, where he will then wait for the camera to bring him to _Knuckles'_ boss area. The fact that Knuckles faces two of these allows a new strategy: by using the insta-shield, Sonic can hit both bosses at once. By hitting both bosses at once, sonic reverses direction twice and ends up heading the same direction he was going before he hit them. This drastically reduces time between hits, by allowing him to jump from tails, hit both bosses, and then be caught again by tails, who is still ascending, and thereby follow the bosses more closely.
Lastly, because this area of the level differs for sonic between the end of Act 1, and the start of Act 2, Sonic can die at the start of the score tally, in order to skip it, and start the Act over at his normal starting location.

Launch Base Zone, Act 1

By starting from a death, the camera is not stuck within the boundaries of the boss fight, and Sonic can immediately spindash right, with no obstructions.
The first 6 seconds, and last 8 seconds are my input. Everything else is Nitsuja's, with minor hex-edits to make it sync despite slightly differing subpixel positions.

Launch Base Zone, Act 2

Wait... what?
(I don't even have control during this.)

Hidden Palace Zone

The first 6 seconds of Tails' input are Nitsuja's, as are the first 16 seconds of Sonic's, the 2 seconds when the camera starts to move after the Knuckles fight, and the 2 or so seconds at the end of the level, when Knuckles wakes up after the Master Emerald has been stolen.
The improvement here comes from the Knuckles boss fight, and requires Tails' assistance. Tails holds Knuckles down while Sonic lays the smack on him. This is incredibly satisfying after the cutscenes in Angel Island, Launch Base, and Mushroom Hill.

Comparison Table

Act New Time Old Time Savings Total Savings Notes
Hydrocity 2 (Pre-death) 0:09 - -0:09 -0:09 Nitsuja doesn't die and restart, so this time is just lost
Hydrocity 2 (Post-death) 0:28 0:52 0:24 0:15 A lot of time saved here by going the wrong way
Launch Base 1 (Pre-death) 0:56 - -0:56 -0:41 Nitsuja doesn't die and restart, so this time is just lost
Launch Base 1 (Post-death) 1:04 1:38 34 -0:07
Launch Base 2 0:18 1:07 0:49 0:42 What's going on here?
Hidden Palace 0:19 0:26 0:07 0:49 Take that, Knuckles.

Comparison Table (for serious this time)

Act New Time Old Time Savings Total Savings Notes
Hydrocity 2 (death) 0:09 - -0:09 -0:09 Nitsuja doesn't die and restart, so this time is just lost
Hydrocity 2 0:28 0:52 0:24 0:15 A lot of time saved here by going the "wrong" way
Launch Base 1 0:56 1:38 0:42 0:57 The "escape the elevator" glitch is really handy
Launch Base 1 1:04 1:07 0:03 1:00 This is really Launch Base 2, you see
Launch Base 2 0:18 - -0:18 0:42 For Nitsuja, the timer doesn't run during this cutscene, though the cutscene is actually shorter in my version
Hidden Palace 0:19 0:26 0:07 0:49 Knuckles is a chump

Other notes

For some reason, when Launch base is glitched this way, the cutscene where it's supposed to show Sonic and Tails watching the Death Egg falling ends 549 frames faster... and also doesn't show Sonic, Tails, or the Death Egg.
The real time savings is 4574 frames, or 1 minute 16 seconds 14 frames
The rerecord count started from the rerecord count of Nitsuja's TAS, rather than 0. This run was accomplished by re-TASing parts or all of each of the improved levels, and splicing it back into Nitsuja's TAS. This game only desyncs due to luck issues and lag differences. Since all luck issues are a result of frame rules on the universal frame timer, I would correct desyncs by adding short pauses during the loading time of the desync'ed level, rather than replaying the desync'ed portion.

Thanks to Eredani, Orkal (aka GoldS), and Skylights1 for information about the tricks used in Hydrocity, Launch Base, and Hidden Palace, respectively.

Possible improvements

In-game: If one were to aim completely for in-game time, they could die at the end of the Launch Base 1 score tally, and the cutscene would play normally -- full length, but no timer running. If one were to discount time spent during sections that end in death, one could die in Sky Sanctuary after the initial cutscene, to lower the final timer by about 22 seconds. Real-time: If one were to remove the pauses, and instead replay the desynced portions, about 40 frames could be saved. I am not aware of any other improvements.

Suggested Screenshot


NesVideoAgent: Hi! I am a robot. I took a few screenshots of this movie and placed them here. I'm not sure I got the right ROM though. (I tried Sonic and Knuckles & Sonic 3 (W) [!].gen, which was the closest match to what you wrote.) Well, here goes! Feel free to clean up the list.

BoltR Accepting as an improvement to the previous run.

DeHackEd: Encoding to AVI

TASVideoAgent
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This topic is for the purpose of discussing #1935: nitsuja, upthorn's Genesis Sonic 3 & Knuckles in 33:05.78
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A tremendous improvement to one of the best runs on this entire site. Yes vote plus star.
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Holy...STAR! Is it just me or is there something wrong with when Robotnik gets his 5th hit on Hydrocity Zone Act 2? (Doesn't seem completely optimized.) Otherwise, brilliant improvement to a brilliant run!
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1ntru wrote:
Is it just me or is there something wrong with when Robotnik gets his 5th hit on Hydrocity Zone Act 2? (Doesn't seem completely optimized.)
It dosn't happen as soon as the boss becomes vulnerable, because I wait to insta-shield until I'd actually bounce upward from the hit. There didn't seem to be any way for me to get the hit immediately and avoid falling into his harmful propeller. I did not find any pattern of flight and jumping that got Robotnik defeated any faster than this one.
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Well, I came. Today I'm gonna be late for work thanks to you. :D
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Sonic 3 & Knuckles will now be referred to "How many levels can YOU break?" Yes vote.
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Voted yes. I miss SprintGod's run though.
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I was a bit sceptical when I saw that there was another S3&K run. Nitsuja's run was so well stylised and it was glitchy but not too glitchy. I'm glad you decided to just hex the input because I don't think that the stylistic choices can be changed without a resultant loss in entertainment. I don't think the new glitches break the game too much, although the LB1 glitch breaks the tempo pretty badly making this run a tad less entertaining than the last. However, this is still my favourite run on the site and I am most certainly voting yes. I'd also like to see the stars make a return. Work such as this should be distinguished from the rest of the riff-raff :P
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Can any of these improvements be applied to the Knuckles-All-Emeralds run?
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IronSlayer wrote:
plus star.
1ntru wrote:
Holy...STAR!
moozooh wrote:
We currently have no starred run section. But as Mukki pointed out, if they make a return, this run should have its place at the top where it belongs. Finally good to see such a well executed run in the workbench. Will watch later. Of course, every time I watch Nitsuja's old run I get to thinking there may be frame improvements in the rest of the stages, making a "improve a few and hex the rest" pedagogue seem silly. I'd rather see you start from the very beginning and try to obsolete all of his stages, as well as make the entire run be unique to you. But that's just my opinion.
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Comicalflop wrote:
We currently have no starred run section.
Well, who the hell cares.
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Yes vote, I quite liked the glitch you used at the end of the Launch Base level and for killing Knuckles super fast, as well as the glitch in Hydrocity. I wish you tried to improve at least some of Nitsuja's parts rather just implementing new tricks, as the run feels more like I'm watching his run espeacially considering that the previous stylistic choices have been maintained througout.
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Yes vote
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It appears Nitsuja and Upthorn are robots, for they had no trouble passing Carnival Night Zone Act 2 Yes vote. Yes, it is true, I couldn't beat Sonic 3 for years... not until ~2003/4 T_T
adelikat wrote:
I very much agree with this post.
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Don't blink, you might miss the knuckles fight.
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Great improvements on an already great run. I hadn't watched the previous movie for a while, so it was almost like an entirely new experience for me. Obvious yes. I am pondering, however, if this game has become broken enough to deserve another run, without using the wall zip glitch? I'm sure there's a whole bunch of loop holes and snags that would pop up in terms of having a clear set of goals, but I would gladly see a return to the pre-zip era of sprintgod's movie. Just my $.02.
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A lot of people would like to see an optimized glitchless run with Sonic solo, but no-one's working on it, and there are only about ~2 players on this site who are able to do one up to current standards.
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moozooh wrote:
A lot of people would like to see an optimized glitchless run with Sonic solo, but no-one's working on it, and there are only about ~2 players on this site who are able to do one up to current standards.
Don't count me there. I love Tails (on girls)
No.
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You guys have yet to break Angel Island Zone. In any case, I like it. Yes vote.
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FractalFusion wrote:
You guys have yet to break Angel Island Zone. In any case, I like it. Yes vote.
So you don't count the very beginning, where Sonic gets halfway through the level before the timer starts, and the palette isn't even loaded yet?
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upthorn wrote:
So you don't count the very beginning, where Sonic gets halfway through the level before the timer starts, and the palette isn't even loaded yet?
Nope. Though I forgot about that. I was hoping there was a way to access Knuckles' routes more often, because they seem to be shorter.
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moozooh wrote:
and there are only about ~2 players on this site who are able to do one up to current standards.
This to me sounds incredibly unfair. True, there are, if going by submissions, 3 people who have made good Sonic 3 runs; SprintGod, Nitsuja, and Upthorn. But are you saying that no one else is competent enough to succeed? I'm sure a very good number of skilled TASers could learn how to work with this game and do equally, even potentially better than what is accomplished so far, yet unable to by being busy or working with different games. Try not to speak on everyone's behalf all the time. I certainly feel insulted that you're lumping me in a group of 1,998 that "can't" TAS this game because we haven't made a submission for it. By that reasoning, Saturn isn't good at Super Metroid. Pirate Sephiroth sucks at Gunstar Super Heroes. Nitsuja is a poser when it comes to SMB3. Tompa fails miserably at Donkey Kong Country. Sami isfull of fail for trying Banjo Kazooie. The list goes on forever as you're probably aware, but I'm just making a point. While there is undeniable proof that someone is good at a game by providing a good run, that does not rule out everyone else who has not even thought to try the game.
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I'll try correcting Moozooh's inital post since I feel he conveyed the wrong message. Originally
moozooh wrote:
and there are only about ~2 players on this site who are able to do one up to current standards.
Probably meant
moozooh wrote:
and there is only about ~2 players on the site who'd have the motive to do such a run up to site standards.
Not that I'd agree with either statement moreso the first one, but to each his own.
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All right, comical flop. Name ONE other player who would even attempt to TAS 9 Barney Games at once couldn't resist. sorry ;)
adelikat wrote:
I very much agree with this post.
Bobmario511 wrote:
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Are you guys trying to correct my opinion or something? Lol. You would fare better if you found proofs of otherwise then. And I'm not talking about finished submissions. Good luck to you. Also,
Comicalflop wrote:
Try not to speak on everyone's behalf all the time. I certainly feel insulted that you're lumping me in a group of 1,998 that "can't" TAS this game because we haven't made a submission for it.
Right. Sorry you feel insulted because of your own interpretation. It would also be consistent of you to correct others when they express their "speak on everyone's behalf" opinions that you agree with, as well. Otherwise I would think you weren't against that in certain cases. Start with yourself, kthx.
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