Post subject: Pokemon Colosseum discussion
Active player (279)
Joined: 4/30/2009
Posts: 791
Since there is a fair amount of interest in the Pokemon GC games, I thought I would start a discussion thread for planning a possible run of Colosseum. From my current speedrun of Colosseum, which is close to finished, I am on target for a sub-8 hour run for snagging all Pokemon. That sounds like a lot for a TAS, and it is. With a TAS, there is obvious a lot of room for improvement coming from manipulating crits, Quick Claw for outspeeding faster Pokemon, move selection from TMs or Pokemon use, which Pokemon to purify and use, and so on. As I have shown with my speedrun, getting Feraligatr gives you more than enough coverage for getting through the various parts of the game. Bite is great for the early fights, even as far as Realgem where I learned Hydro Pump. Slash with its high crit rate is not bad, and before purifying having Shadow Rush with its typeless base 100 attack pretty much rips through most things. As for Surf, it gives you an early boost in damage, and plus after purifying it allowed me to solo the Mt Battle section pretty much, dealing with Dakim handily and giving me some needed early exp. I bought Blizzard for Feraligatr in The Under, and Earthquake was available after beating Ein for the first time. This helped me round out my coverage and take on Feraligatr's weaknesses easier - Ice for the Grass types, and Ground for the Electric types. As for the damage itself, I was lacking a bit in SpA (IV was around 20ish) but everything else was great. Manipulating the IVs of the starters and whatever else you want to use would be a good start inevitably. (Helping Hand support can come from Espeon and Plusle). I'm not sure about how to manipulate the RNG from various methods I tried with the gamecube version, but I'm sure the accuracy, damage and IVs shouldnt be as hard as any other Pokemon games, in theory. Of course, this is Genius Sonority making the games and not Game Freak, so who knows what differences there are. I'm reminded of an incident where I couldnt get Umbreon to crit after well over 100 tries, so that suggests the RNG was having a bad cycle or something (base crit chance is 1/16, so I should have had around 6 crits in that time. Incidentally, Espeon performed 5 crits in that time within the same battle, which is just below average). TASing also gives you greater flexibility about when to snag, even for an any% run sometimes snagging a Shadow Pokemon can be faster than defeating it (although this does mean you generally gain less exp overall, unless you have to refight the same trainer). For example, I left the snag of Suicune until the third Venus battle because it would be replaced by the ever-annoying Milotic, scaled up with the rest of the team and difficult to take down with Recover in its arsenal. Getting the Master Ball means I also didnt have to weaken Pokemon before capturing, and also gives me a free hit on whatever replaces the snagged Pokemon. And of course, you can duplicate any Pokeball including the Master Ball, as long as there is more than one ball type in the inventory. Unfortunately I dont have a computer that can run this effectively yet, but I can at least use my own experience from doing a non-TAS run to help anyone willing to TAS this game, and possibly XD as well (although I am not running that yet, I may do so in the future).
Joined: 6/27/2009
Posts: 7
Location: Zebulon, NC
This could certainly be interesting, but it will be very long.
Nothing to be found here.
Active player (279)
Joined: 4/30/2009
Posts: 791
Actually it might not be as long as I thought. 100% run is completed, in a time of 7:17 minutes to final snag. For an any% run, I reckon a regular speedrun would be around 4:15 or less, considering I did make it in 4:23 to Evice in the 100% run. A TAS time would save a huge amount due to critical abuse, so I reckon a conservative estimate is about 3:30, but I'm guessing the huge amount of savings that critting for OHKOs might even push it below 3 hours. My speedrun also spent time to collect and buy items and did a few optional battles for various reasons, so that's another time saver. Some items will need to be got though, like Ethers and Elixirs for PP management, and a few Potions, but not at the number I used in my speedrun. Also, you'll have a higher level main Pokemon anyway considering you will be KOing the Shadow Pokemon rather than capturing, and will be able to solo many more battles. Soloing does get slower after a certain point though, but Feraligatr has the best start due to Mt Battle's forced visit having almost everything weak to water.
MarbleousDave
He/Him
Player (13)
Joined: 9/12/2009
Posts: 1560
There is a glitch related to using Poke Balls: 1st Pokemon's turn: Use the Master Ball, 2nd Pokemon's turn: Switch the Master Ball with another Poke Ball type. It can be done with other Poke Ball types too.
Active player (279)
Joined: 4/30/2009
Posts: 791
PikachuMan wrote:
There is a glitch related to using Poke Balls: 1st Pokemon's turn: Use the Master Ball, 2nd Pokemon's turn: Switch the Master Ball with another Poke Ball type. It can be done with other Poke Ball types too.
If you watched the speedrun at all you would see that I am well aware of this. Anyway, on topic, I am playing this game again and still want to eventually TAS it. Correcting myself, I reached save after Evice at 4:53. This gives me an any% estimate of 4:30ish real-time. TAS should follow the real-time route with a good deal more solo battles on Feraligatr, since critical hits should be relatively easy to generate. Solo gatr can use Mystic Water or some other item, where as with a partner she is often forced to use Exp Share. Helping Hand does add a significant boost to gatr's attacks, but it will be a balance between the reduced animations of soloing and the raw damage output of HH-boosted attacks, which may be necessary against some opponents (Ein 1's Lanturn perhaps, not easy to deal with due to the lack of EQ). On reflection it might be viable to collect the 3 Revive box behind the Lab fence, and revive Espeon when he is needed for a tough admin. Gyarados can be tricky to deal with due to lack of electric, so Hidden Power Electric might be viable at some points, Hydro Pump (its only viable competitor for this moveslot) is infinitely more useful. Blizzard, Surf, Earthquake are necessities for gatr, and the early Bite and Slash also have their uses. Rain Dance is a huge time waste.
N._Harmonik
She/Her
Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 502
Location: Canada
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy3T_j37vZs&feature=fvst Showing apparently perfect emulation of the game. There's probably a catch somewhere though...
Why, oh, why do I even <i>try</i> to understand my own species?
Active player (279)
Joined: 4/30/2009
Posts: 791
Na I am fully aware the game works fine. I am also aware there is some hacking going on, mostly in XD, to determine the IV generation method, which is very different to that used by the GBA games. This knowledge can be used as a basis to start TASing these games - get a perfect starter or Feraligatr, then get to grips with combat RNG manipulation. Unlike the GBA games this is uncharted territory, but I suspect GameFreak just gave Genius Sorority a bunch of code used in the handheld games, and that is mostly understood now. It is known that Colosseum at least can generate IV combinations which the handheld games cannot, so there are some fundamental differences too. Figuring out what other quirks and changes GS made (such as AI determining enemy moves after you select yours) will be fun
Joined: 2/1/2011
Posts: 88
I think it would be really intresting if some one did a T.A.S. of this game or Pokemon xd Gale of Darkness.
Active player (279)
Joined: 4/30/2009
Posts: 791
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3364100&postcount=679 Some clever people have worked out the Initial Seeding in Colosseum. Pokemon generation method has yet to be determined, but this is a step closer to being able to TAS this game.
N._Harmonik
She/Her
Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 502
Location: Canada
Are we ready for a TAS of this yet?
Why, oh, why do I even <i>try</i> to understand my own species?
Experienced player (804)
Joined: 2/5/2012
Posts: 1815
Location: Brasil
i guess it's just interest and having the means(a decent computer)
I want all good TAS inside TASvideos, it's my motto. TAS i'm interested: Megaman series, specially the RPGs! Where is the mmbn1 all chips TAS we deserve? Where is the Command Mission TAS? i'm slowly moving away from TASing fighting games for speed, maybe it's time to start finding some entertainment value in TASing.
Player (43)
Joined: 1/7/2016
Posts: 51
I don't know if this game still has anyone's interest or not, but I have been working on some things after playing this game again and watching the latest WR run and thought that I would share some of the things that I have come across in case someone wants to tackle the game. I have been wondering for a while if there was another Pokèmon that could be useful other than Feraligatr for the end game and the only one that came to mind was Entei. Now with Entei you lose the ability to use spread moves, but it is made up by being much faster and being a stronger attacker as well. Only thing is that Entei's strongest move, Fire Blast, only has 5 PP but fortunately there is a PP UP in the Shadow Pokèmon Lab to boost the PP for that. In conclusion to all of this, I feel that Entei will probably be a better choice over Feraligatr because of its sheer power, despite the lack of spread moves, which are weaker in doubles, as opposed to having each Pokèmon using a single target move and hitting much harder with stronger moves. Something else that I thought of is that Hidden Power will probably be needed to help with coverage for the last half of the game. I think that Espeon will need HP Ice and that Entei will need HP Ground. These round out a good amount of coverage, HP Ground can be used over Fire Blast against Steel types in certain places to maintain its PP, knock out fire types in the last sets of fights and take out all of the Magnemites, Magnetons, and Electrodes in the Lab, along with Ein's Lanturn/Raikou. HP Ice cleans up a lot of end game Pokèmon as there are a slough of grass and flying types along with dragons. The other reason that these Hidden Powers are picked the way they are is because this is a Gen 3 game and hasn't had the Physical/Special split, so Ground type moves are Physical and Ice type moves are Special, which is best used for each of their best attack stat. I have made a guide for the IV's that will be needed for each Hidden Power, this is for Power 65-70, I feel like these are probably going to be the most relevant, for both Ice and Ground: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13x587VLWuqDPpFuFuVUQ_mAK5pKmE1rk_uwatDzOxAM/edit?usp=sharing For those that don't know, I know that it is stated in the sheet but in case people don't look at it, IV's have a range between 0-31 inclusive, but for some Hidden Powers their respective cap might end at 30 in some stats for their 70 base power, which is the highest that it can go this generation (the only Hidden Power that can have all maxed IV's is Dark type.) This guide helps in the fact that it shows that you can keep the same power for the Hidden Power even if you have lower IV's which can be manipulated for certain situations. Like for Espeon, since it is a special attacker, you will want a high Special Attack IV, so you would either want 27 or 31 IV's, but maybe you would want to have a lower defense to influence what Pokèmon an opponent will send out, or maybe a slightly lower Attack IV since Espeon barely uses a physical attack, the only one that is used is Return. Now for a full game route, that I don't have yet. I'm missing IV's and natures for all of the trainer's Pokèmon that aren't Shadow Pokèmon, would need to know if they are all consistent since that would help out with rounding out working on damage calcs for the whole run. The only thing that I have truly worked on a little bit on is the Ferma fight on top of the Pyrite building that you go to after winning in the Colosseum. We would want Croc to have a +Speed nature with 31 IVs in Speed to be able to outspeed her Mantine potentially. That goes my next point is that I think that it would be wise to manipulate to not have Croc go into Hyper Mode since this locks you out of using other moves and healing after using Shadow Rush so much due to recoil. Other than that the only other thing that I can say is that Shadow Pokèmon can have their IV's and natures manipulated, so this can lead to those Pokèmon being taken out a lot faster than normal by just giving them a low HP IV and then the corresponding defense stat a low IV with a stat dropping nature. For instance, referring back to the Croc vs. Mantine fight, a Croc with 31 IV's in Speed and a +Speed nature can outspeed a Mantine if it either has a neutral Speed nature it has 0-5 IV's to be outsped or 6-8 IV's to speed tie, or if it has a -Speed nature and it has 0-23 IV's it will be outsped or with 24-26 IV's it will have a speed tie. The reason why this is important is because we can use Bite and flinch the Mantine for a few turns while Espeon takes out Ferma's other Pokèmon(It would be preferable not to have a -Speed nature and have a -SpD nature instead so that Bite does more damage.)
Experienced player (804)
Joined: 2/5/2012
Posts: 1815
Location: Brasil
the pokemon have their stats recalculated when they're caught right?
I want all good TAS inside TASvideos, it's my motto. TAS i'm interested: Megaman series, specially the RPGs! Where is the mmbn1 all chips TAS we deserve? Where is the Command Mission TAS? i'm slowly moving away from TASing fighting games for speed, maybe it's time to start finding some entertainment value in TASing.
Player (43)
Joined: 1/7/2016
Posts: 51
No, whatever they are in the battle is what they are when they are caught. This is noted in the WR run when Exarion says that based on Croc's damage onto Espeon that it was a good one with it's attack stat and was basically able to guess it's nature as well. On a sidenote, can someone help me find out what the IV's and natures are for Pokèmon that are not Shadow Pokèmon? It would help me get through all of the calcs once I get through routing EXP (probably going to take the longest, since I would probably need to go through the game manually, get out all of the EXP for each fight, when level ups are and catch Entei), EV distribution and trying to figure out what movesets should be used throughout the game.
Player (43)
Joined: 1/7/2016
Posts: 51
So upon routing I noticed something interesting, apparently in the fight Skrub and Eugan in the Agate Village by the Purification Stone, Pikachu can miss Quick Attack. This is weird because Quick Attack is supposed to 100% accurate, so either this was some sort of glitch or it could affirm to the fact that it is said that Pikachu hasn't battled in a while so it may reduce it's accuracy. Maybe someone else can confirm this matter as well.
Pika25
He/Him
Joined: 7/18/2011
Posts: 11
Maybe it's because Skrub's Hitmontop has Bright Powder (or Lax Incense) during that fight only? If not that, it would certainly hearken back to the "1 in 256 miss glitch" from good old RBY. So the question is does Hitmontop have Bright Powder / Lax Incense? I'm thinking not really
Pika25
He/Him
Joined: 7/18/2011
Posts: 11
The Espeon I would heavily consider going for has an IV spread of 30 / 30 / 30 / 31 / 31 / 31, modest nature, target seed a5fd8741. The problem is with dolphin. Specifically the memory watch (address 80478c90 on U ROM) gives me the wrong seed. I use ColoPredictor (which I downloaded from speedrun.com btw) to see which Umbreon / Espeon I actually hit, and see if it matches RNG reporter. Turns out I'm off by way too many RNG frames. And memory watch is only on debug mode for now. Perhaps the next stable build of dolphin will allow memory watch without debug?
Player (43)
Joined: 1/7/2016
Posts: 51
Well we don't necessarily have to use an Espeon like that. I think that as long as we have a +SpA nature that isn't -Speed, I think that it will work so long as the SpA and Speed are as close to 31 as they can get. I don't really think that the defense stats matter too much, they could be used to manipulate attacks later on in the run. Attack will probably be somewhat useful for Returns KOs, and HP can be lower as well to help, once again, with manipulating attacks. Looking at the predictor, I don't really know how to figure out the target seed, but there are a couple of things that I liked, though I haven't spent a ton of time looking at values. (Also don't know if the TID being higher means that it will be harder or longer to hit, I still have them listed) These are all Mild nature, and also have some pretty decent Umbreons for the first few fights, Ice 66 TID 161- 0,26,12,31,7,31 (A500 are the last 4) Ice 69 TID 268- 0,6,22,31,3,31 (6963 are the last 4) Ice 66 TID 1758- 19,24,12,31,3,31 (37F8 are the last 4) Ice 66 TID 1912- 19,17,1,31,11,30 (34B9 are the last 4)
Pika25
He/Him
Joined: 7/18/2011
Posts: 11
a5fd8741 for that espeon was the PID, not the seed. no wonder I got the wrong espeon
Experienced player (804)
Joined: 2/5/2012
Posts: 1815
Location: Brasil
Newest runs and WR are using quilava because of higher 1target damage instead of damage spreading with croc and surf and EQ https://www.speedrun.com/pkmncolosseum
I want all good TAS inside TASvideos, it's my motto. TAS i'm interested: Megaman series, specially the RPGs! Where is the mmbn1 all chips TAS we deserve? Where is the Command Mission TAS? i'm slowly moving away from TASing fighting games for speed, maybe it's time to start finding some entertainment value in TASing.
Player (43)
Joined: 1/7/2016
Posts: 51
Which Hidden Power do we think is the better choice for Espeon; Grass or Ice? And what nature should we look for with Quilava? I think that a +SpA nature would be nice since Special moves are used through most of the game, but it seems like a lot of the +Att natures are faster for purifying. It pretty much depends on when we would want to have access to Flame Wheel because if we don't mind going a decent way without it we wouldn't have go into Hyper Mode and call. I think that it might be better manipulate not going into Hyper Mode, at least for later parts, so that Quilava can be healed of it's recoil from Shadow Rush. Is there a way to manipulate the Pokèmon that trainers send out? It would help out tremendously for routing, assuming that it doesn't take too many frames to the RNG necessary.
Player (43)
Joined: 1/7/2016
Posts: 51
So after doing some calculations for the beginning fights up to getting Quilava it seems that if Umbreon has a +SpA nature that it won't matter how many SpA IVs it has, if it is a neutral nature it will need 4 IVs and if it has a -SpA nature it will need 24 IVs to be able to help Espeon sweep through. Dealing with Hidden Powers, do we want to be able to OHKO Venus' Suicune? I am starting to think that HP Grass might be the better choice since most of the mons that can be OHKO'd with HP Ice can also be taken out with Psybeam/Psychic relatively easily. HP Grass almost guarantees an OHKO on Suicune, assuming 65+ power. One of the higher end calcs that I did for Suicune's stats was (20-31 SpA EV, because Espeon's SpA stat will be 135 in this fight) Espeon HP Grass (65) (30 SpA IV, Rash nature) vs Suicune (25 HP IV, 24 SpD IV with a -SpD nature) is 85-100% with a critical hit. A +SpD nature means that Espeon will never OHKO Suicune even with 0 HP and SpD IVs and neutral is still possible to OHKO it will just have to have really low HP and SpD IVs (8 HP and 4 SpD is the highest that I calc'd with). This is all assuming 65 power HP Grass however, I only did calcs with that since I thought that it would be the lowest that would be acceptable for the TAS. Edit: I will do work with other higher power HP Grass to check as well.
MarbleousDave
He/Him
Player (13)
Joined: 9/12/2009
Posts: 1560
Odds of having a Pokemon with max IVs is 1 in 1,073,741,812 Odds of having Espeon and Umbreon with max IVs is 1 in 1,152,921,504,606,846,976 Odds of a Shadow Pokemon to become shiny upon purification is 1 in 8,192 Odds of finding a shiny Shadow Pokemon and keeping it shiny upon purification is 1 in 67,108,864 Odds of both starters being shiny with max IVs is 1 in 77,301,252,455,336,267,181,195,264
Fortranm
He/Him
Editor, Experienced player (881)
Joined: 10/19/2013
Posts: 1122
Shiny animation wastes time in this game, just like in the core titles.
Player (43)
Joined: 1/7/2016
Posts: 51
I don't know if this known already or not, but I figured that I would put this out there. The TID and stats for both Espeon and Umbreon are determined from the frame you select Yes for your name once you select Yes to start a New Game from the main menu. There are some frames that will have the same TID and natures, but they only seem to be in clusters of two that I have seen so far.