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Today Baxter, adelikat, JXQ and I were discussing user ranks, and there was a point that we currently have only two ninjas (a rank that is granted selectively and subjectively, although hardly arguable in the light of each ninja's achievements), and a whole lot of simple players ("active player" is just a forum rank, it doesn't mean the user is active as a player, rather that they're active on the forums). So some of us decided it would be kind of neat to give people another interesting goal to strive for in TASing, so I came up with a bit of technical data and logic base for a possible new rank I'd call "expert player", which is granted semi-automatically (as with "player"), rather than manually (as with "ninja"). Keeping in mind the existance of topics like "I call for a Top 10 All-Time TAS authors list!", it would also give a simple and open way to reward the most active and thorough TASers (see below). But its main goal as I see it is to encourage TASing activity and production quality. The semi-arbitrary criteria for being an expert player would be • having an amount of published non-obsoleted runs of different games more or equal to 5; • having an average tech rating on all the published non-obsoleted runs (including runs of the same game) more or equal to 7.5. Rationale. Having a great number of runs is one of the main criteria to show that you're indeed able to TAS and have experience in TASing. However, having lots of runs of the same games wouldn't show diversity (making you an expert of one game, rather all-round expert), hence you need to have runs of different games published. I decided not to include the obsoleted runs into picture due to possible difficulties with low confidence rating of the movies obsoleted before rating system became popular (though I agree it might have left some players out of the picture as well, so it's open for discussion). Requirement of an average tech rating is where its subjectivity can help, since it more or less represents the voters' (= community members') opinion on whether any given run is good enough technically (even if it isn't very entertaining, which doesn't tell much about the quality of a TAS at all), and thus, the player's perceived achievents on that part. In short, it can show whether the community thinks the player is a good player — an expert. Since a player is given the expert status, it should not be changed (the amount of published movies can decrease due to obsoletion in the future, but that shouldn't affect the player's actual achievements). To sum up the formula variables to consider: 1) the number of published runs (currently 5); 2) the number of different games been run (currently 5); 3) whether to include obsoleted movies (currently not); 4) the average tech rating to achieve (currently 7.5); 5) how to round numbers; 6) whether to include other variables or exclude existing ones. A small table of player "nominees" based on the number of published solo runs and the formula described above (note that my math can be a little off, so feel free to correct me): adelikat — 16 runs of 15 different games, average tech rating: 139/16=8.7; Walker Boh — 15/13 runs, ATR: 114.2/15=7.6; Randil — 13/13 runs, ATR: 108.9/13=8.4; FODA — 11/11 runs, ATR: 86.3/11=7.9; JXQ — 10/10 runs, ATR: 83.4/10=8.3; Acmlm — 9/9 runs, ATR: 75/9=8.3; Baxter — 8/7 runs, ATR: 68.1/8=8.5; SprintGod — 7/7 runs, ATR: 52.4/7.5; TheAxeMan — 7/7 runs, ATR: 55.6/7=7.9. Discuss. :)
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Post subject: Re: Idea for a new rank
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moozooh wrote:
Today Baxter, adelikat, JXQ and I... adelikat — 16 runs of 15 different games, average tech rating: 139/16=8.7; JXQ — 10/10 runs, ATR: 83.4/10=8.3; Baxter — 8/7 runs, ATR: 68.1/8=8.5;
So are we supposed to believe that this is a complete coincidence? ;)
JXQ
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To summarize my (very different) position in the discussion moozooh referred to: I think the ninja rank is pure crap, and I've thought this ever since Bisqwit's piss-poor definition of it. I don't believe having this rank (or "master ninja", or "precursor", as I roll my eyes) helps the site in any way. I'm of the opinion that any forum ranks can cause implied superiority and favoritism. The tradeoff is that they give people something to aim for - but aiming for a subjective rank, to me, is just stupid. Although ranks based on concrete rules and not "who Bisqwit thinks fits these conditions" are less likely to cause these feelings, I would still prefer that the ranks were abolished altogether. Adding in the rank of "Expert Player" proposed here would not remove the problems that the ninja rank causes, it would only hide them a bit more. It should be noted that I've been told by several people that my opinion is in the vast minority.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
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JXQ wrote:
"lots of more words here" It should be noted that I've been told by several people that my opinion is in the vast minority.
I second you.
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Kyrsimys wrote:
So are we supposed to believe that this is a complete coincidence? ;)
Bisqwit was once a self-proclaimed ninja, but it was him who granted that rank to other players. It isn't surprising that people who contribute much (and contribute good) to the site discuss rewards for others' contribution, too.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
adelikat
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sounds good except that I think the number of movies should be a little higher (7 or possibly 10). Also, co-authored runs should be included as well. I like the idea that tech rating is used, as that more accurately describes the percieved "expert"-ness of the player. Also, Phil, Genisto should probably be on the list Also, while we were dicussing these things, I don't particular feel the need to be "Rewarded" for my hard work. I think this idea could be a nice way to reward players and possibly motive people to contribute more. I also somewhat share JXQ's concerns as well though.
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Phil, Genisto, Nitsuja and all those people who have (or will have) custom ranks are obviously exempted from the list. Regarding the number of movies: perhaps so. But note, that the players in the table above already have at least 7 people as well.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
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Sounds to me like a good plan, maybe there can also be a rank between player and expert player. As many of you know, I'm not a big fan of technical rating, so I don't think this should be an important factor on this all. If it is, I think 7.5 might be a little low. I also don't think "number of movies above rating Y" good idea, since the movies below this rating wouldn't count, which they should. I also don't think average rating of movies above Y is good, since then some movies would lower your average, thus those movies would make you a worse TASer, while they should make you a better one (just not to the extent higher rated movies should). I do have a suggestion to avoid all of these problems, use this formula: Take the rating of one of your movies to the power of X, then add all those numbers for all your movies. N is your total amount of movies. X should be determined on how important high ratings are considered, but all movies count to a certain extent. Call the outcome Z. If Z = 0 --> member If Z > 0 --> player If Z > A --> [insert name] If Z > B --> expert player
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Baxter wrote:
I do have a suggestion to avoid all of these problems, use this formula:
Yeah, I like that idea because it would help players whose average rating is bogged down by the outdated runs (oftenly produced prior to implementation of tools crucial to success).
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
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Maybe the rank should just say for example "Player, 6 movie published". Of course the system would have to be automatic, it would be too much work to update the ranks manually.
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To me, veteran player sounds a bit better than expert player. But since the current rank is "player", logically the next rank should be "pimp" ...
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Something I've wondered about for some time is finalfighter having a rank of Master Ninja. Why only him, and how is that any different than Ninja? I have no problem with a very few select people having a Ninja ranking (although a better definition may be needed), and I agree with a expert/veteran/pimp (ha ha) player ranking, but Master Ninja? Sorry, I just don't get that one.
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Kyrsimys wrote:
Maybe the rank should just say for example "Player, 6 movie published". Of course the system would have to be automatic, it would be too much work to update the ranks manually.
There already is a separate page of sorts that already features this, namely the players page.
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laughing_gas wrote:
To me, veteran player sounds a bit better than expert player.
Veteran player sounds ok to me. Another idea would be to encourage quality of the runs with one rank ("expert" or what have you), and the large number of runs which are on par with "expert" quality with another. For example: • 5+ runs (no matter what game) with quality calculated using Baxter's formula = "expert"; • 10+ runs with that quality = "veteran".
mmbossman wrote:
Something I've wondered about for some time is finalfighter having a rank of Master Ninja. Why only him, and how is that any different than Ninja? I have no problem with a very few select people having a Ninja ranking (although a better definition may be needed), and I agree with a expert/veteran/pimp (ha ha) player ranking, but Master Ninja? Sorry, I just don't get that one.
Yeah, that is a common question. It's hard to explain it, really, because there's no explanation that would suit anyone.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
adelikat
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Any logic that the master ninja rank may have is from the megman 1 thread (starting about page 25 or so).
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
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maybe there should be not average of all runs, but average of best 5 runs? or lates runs to be more precise and show player's current state?.. another lame idea: 2+ published runs on same series with good rating: series expert (Megaman expert, Mario expert, Sonic expert) 5+published runs with good rating or 2+series expert : TAS expert 10+ published runs : TAS veteran (as being a veteran does not reflect quality anyways)
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I'm not in a Warpesque mood at the moment, so instead of restating everything that's been said I'll just say that I agree with JXQ and point you to his post instead. But to sum up, ranks (or titles) = crap, kinda stupid, and unnecessary. And also, [18:23:03] <Fabian_> so about this forum rank [18:23:13] <Fabian_> let's put everything else aside for a second and just focus on this point: [18:24:01] <Fabian_> with this Expert Player forum title avaliable, people who don't have it will suddenly become hugely motivated to produce multiple excellent TASes, to gain this extremely prestigious word "Expert" under their name, on the discussion forum? [18:24:10] <Fabian_> I don't really see this happening [18:24:29] <Fabian_> what I see happening is the following: no one cares I don't mean this in an obnoxious or condescending kinda way, I just think this is what would happen.
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
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some will not care, some will care too much. in the same vein that the stars for recommended movies weren't intentionally made for people to fight over (and to this day it still isn't meant for competition), and now is something that some (not all) people strive too much for, some people will try to hard to become an expert player. the competition should be in the obsoletion of movies, not in rank/status. in a forum with many people, the reactions to such a change will be varied.
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comicalflop wrote:
Kyrsimys wrote:
Maybe the rank should just say for example "Player, 6 movie published". Of course the system would have to be automatic, it would be too much work to update the ranks manually.
There already is a separate page of sorts that already features this, namely the players page.
This is completely unrelated to this thread. The point I was trying to make is that I think ranks should not be something people strive for. In my opinion they should be informative and help new users see who has done what on the site.
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Fabian wrote:
I'm not in a Warpesque mood at the moment, so instead of restating everything that's been said I'll just say that I agree with JXQ and point you to his post instead. But to sum up, ranks (or titles) = crap, kinda stupid, and unnecessary. And also, [18:23:03] <Fabian_> so about this forum rank [18:23:13] <Fabian_> let's put everything else aside for a second and just focus on this point: [18:24:01] <Fabian_> with this Expert Player forum title avaliable, people who don't have it will suddenly become hugely motivated to produce multiple excellent TASes, to gain this extremely prestigious word "Expert" under their name, on the discussion forum? [18:24:10] <Fabian_> I don't really see this happening [18:24:29] <Fabian_> what I see happening is the following: no one cares I don't mean this in an obnoxious or condescending kinda way, I just think this is what would happen.
I don't see myself dying in a few days, either, though I might be suddenly killed on numerous different occasions even while going out on a walk, as it sometimes happens. The point being that until something happens, you can't be sure what would be the result. Also, "no-one cares"? The hell?.. People care about recognition of players who contributed many wonderful runs, as you can see in the topic I linked to in the first post. You see people caring about existing runs. Some people will care, anyway. Would it hurt if the achievements will be rewarded (or at least recognized)? I don't think so. As I said, at least some people will be encouraged to reach a new goal, so why not give it to them. Also, think about it the other way: the western society puts considerable significance into career and self-advancement, but without any ways to aspire, would there be any point in such thing, at all?
Kyrsimys wrote:
This is completely unrelated to this thread. The point I was trying to make is that I think ranks should not be something people strive for. In my opinion they should be informative and help new users see who has done what on the site.
One doesn't deny the other. Also, I see no problem with people striving for ranks — if they're doing it by contributing things valuable to community, that is.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
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moozooh, I definitely think people will/do/might care about recognition and all those things you mention. I don't think people (yes there are obviously exceptions, such as yourself) will/do/might care about the forum title "Expert Player", however. Hope this clears that up. Edit: To further clarify, this was said in the context of people starting to work much more/harder in order to achieve this forum title "Expert Player", as stated in the original quote. I don't believe this will ever act as a huge (or even small) motivator.
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Although they may be seen as superficial, I think ranks do actually play a part in the forum dynamic. When I see a person with a high ranking on a specific board (and this one is included), I tend to value their opinion more than I would with someone who hasn't been around as long or had as much experience. This site, however, has a unique opportunity to recognize those people who have made it consistently better. Runners are who make this site what it is, they are the ones who contribute the movies we all watch and love, and I believe that the best of them should be recognized through elite rankings, however they are determined. Yes this may foster "competition", but this site already fosters that mentality through the obsoleting of old and slow runs. Recognizing those who contribute the most to making this site great seems like a no-brainer to me.
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I can see a problem with that, in devaluating the opinion of a player of "lesser rank", so it should be noted separately and not encouraged in any case. Either way, I still think the possible advantages outweigh the possible disadvantages.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
JXQ
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moozooh wrote:
Also, think about it the other way: the western society puts considerable significance into career and self-advancement, but without any ways to aspire, would there be any point in such thing, at all?
Yes. Aspire because you want to, deep down inside. At least for me, if I do the things I truly want to do, instead of those expected of me, I am much happier. This applies to my reasons for TASing as well - because it's fun, not so I can be the next "master ninja" or "precursor" (I'd love to hear an explanation denouncing the favoritism of those ranks). Play for entertainment, not ego.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
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Valid point. Though some (if not most?) people still play for ego. However, even considering that, I'd like to quote myself for clarity:
moozooh wrote:
But its main goal as I see it is to encourage TASing activity and production quality.
(…Not to encourage playing for ego. Though it might help those who do.)
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.