I'd be interested to see this game beaten to a pulp, seeing as I don't recall ever getting past that first castle/dungeon-type place.
I'll echo this sentiment - I was able to recover four or five runes, but good lord, the difficulty in this game is ri-cock-ulous. I eventually got to a point where even random encounters on the map meant near instant death. I re-tried it on an emulator a few years ago, and while it was easier with save states, it was still so tedious I didn't get much further.
Please beat the crap out of this game for all of us who couldn't back in the day! :D
Yeah, I failed at this when I was a kid, too. Beat it in ZSNES a couple years ago, with a lot of save-whoring. The ending is suck-tacular, needless to say.
Nitrodon wrote:
Critical hits are checked at C4/4F0E and are determined at the beginning of the round, before you get a chance to select an action. If my notes were better organized, I might even be able to tell you where that code is.
Yes... Unless I've misread something, the game checks the to see if the 7th bit of 7E:1DD1 is set, then multiplies damage by 2.
In other words, when 7E:1DD1 equals 192 or 64 (rather than 0 or 128) then Lux will get a critical. I just need to set a breakpoint to find out how the game decides to mess with that bit, and I can perhaps get down to writing a little simulator program to predict this ahead of time...
Once again this game brings me back to these great forums. I'm glad to see there is still interest in making a run of this. While my expertise of the game is great my programming skills are lacking so I hardly understand any of it. Nitrodon was a great help with that but we never really got anywhere with it.
Anyway, I watched both .smvs and they were both good. I noticed in yours Dromiceius that you cycle through the menu alot. Does that effect the randomness? I remember I tried that a couple times but couldn't get anything out of it. One thing I did notice that changed things was choosing different menu options. By choosing different options (like Defend instead of Attack) the monster will behave differently. It may miss, may cast magic, do a critical, whatever. I'm sure you know this already but I wanted to say it in case you didn't, and for those who may not have known.
Do we know if it's quicker to get the whistle to kill Romus or to kill him without it? True to get the whistle you have to get to him first and die but with manipulating around battles it may not take that long to get back. Gonna have to do some testing here.
As for getting the extra 100 gold don't forget you have to fight Red Pison right after Melenam so the extra B Power/Prtct will definitely come in handy. Once you get passed him and exit the cave you pop out on the Eygus continent where the brains are. There you can manipulate some quick level ups to make things easier. Again, things you already knew.
Guybrush: "I'm selling these fine leather jackets."
Wally: "Really?"
Guybrush: "No. I 'm lying."
Wally: "In that case, I don't want one!"
Currently working on:
Nothing at the moment.
Anyway, I watched both .smvs and they were both good. I noticed in yours Dromiceius that you cycle through the menu alot. Does that effect the randomness?
No, but in the time it takes to go all the way around, the RNG usually advances once.
Do we know if it's quicker to get the whistle to kill Romus or to kill him without it? True to get the whistle you have to get to him first and die but with manipulating around battles it may not take that long to get back. Gonna have to do some testing here.
Well, that does make things interesting. Do we get XP from Romus if we kill him with the whistle?
Yes, you get exp and gold when you kill him with the whistle.
Guybrush: "I'm selling these fine leather jackets."
Wally: "Really?"
Guybrush: "No. I 'm lying."
Wally: "In that case, I don't want one!"
Currently working on:
Nothing at the moment.
Wow, I sign up today, check the SNES forum and see the top thread be my fave SNES game of all time.
I have beaten the game with every character on console, and have it on my emulator here. I would attempt a TAS of this if I even knew HOW to start.. All I do is watch them, got no idea how to make them.
Best of luck for all you people trying to break this game down. And I agree, LUX is a great starting choice because the only equipment you buy is WAY late in the game.
Good luck!
~Burkey
I would put a signature here, but I don't want to handwrite on my screen.
Yes, you get exp and gold when you kill him with the whistle.
Excellent. I think that'll be the way to go, then.
Some quick analysis indicates that getting from town to Romus takes ~9,000 frames, while the Romus fight itself (sans whistle) took almost as long.
So it's pretty much even, but there are a lot of other things to consider:
Since Lux needs to get his ass kicked anyway (when losing to Romus) I think the leveling should be done in the dungeon, on the way to Romus- both trips, if necessary, since HP isn't a concern when using the whistle.
It's impossible to manipulate luck IN battles, but manipulating beforehand can be useful, as Healblade demonstrated. Ergo, if it's possible to get better XP/time fighting the Statues et al (rather than the overworld monsters) then we can just combine the trips to Romus with the leveling that would have followed, and go straight to Pison afterward, having saved a few thousand frames in the process.
BurkeWorld wrote:
Wow, I sign up today, check the SNES forum and see the top thread be my fave SNES game of all time.
I have beaten the game with every character on console, and have it on my emulator here. I would attempt a TAS of this if I even knew HOW to start.. All I do is watch them, got no idea how to make them.
~Burkey
Welcome aboard.
The FAQ is a good place to get started if you want to learn. ;)
You're very brave to attempt this on the US version. The Japanese one is much easier because of the level ups. IIRC, you can get 2 stat points above average instead of 1 and every 10 level the average goes up. This progression is kept in the US version for all apprentices except the player, which would explain why they're so much stronger than you.
That would also explain why they get stronger if you level up. Interesting. And yeah the way to go seems to be to do the leveling in the castle on the way to Romus (both times) to save time, and they are stronger than the outside monsters. You can still manipulate bigger battles, just can't do anything in the battles.
Guybrush: "I'm selling these fine leather jackets."
Wally: "Really?"
Guybrush: "No. I 'm lying."
Wally: "In that case, I don't want one!"
Currently working on:
Nothing at the moment.
You're very brave to attempt this on the US version. The Japanese one is much easier because of the level ups. IIRC, you can get 2 stat points above average instead of 1 and every 10 level the average goes up. This progression is kept in the US version for all apprentices except the player, which would explain why they're so much stronger than you.
To be honest, I was only planning to create a few tools to help with luck-manipulation, and pass the project on to whoever wants to actually run the entire thing.
I read about the "Japanese bonus" somewhere a couple months back. I suppose a U vs J debate is inevitable, so I'm just going to say my piece on it right now: we hate the U version. That is why it must be destroyed.
I wonder how the apprentices' levels work? I suppose if one travels with the player long enough, he or she will also gradually get weaker than the rest of the non-player apprentices. That could have interesting implications for TASing, like getting Valsu early on for his buffing spells, and then trading him halfway into the game for a fresh and relatively overpowered Alien...
Well we know they "level" when you do so they gain exp as you kill enemies. Since they are always stronger it seems they get double the exp you get. Not sure though. But if that's the case why is it whenever you recruit an apprentice they are always at a lower level than you? Does it change when you recruit? And would it change when you change partners? That would completely throw off your Valsu idea, which was a good idea.
Guybrush: "I'm selling these fine leather jackets."
Wally: "Really?"
Guybrush: "No. I 'm lying."
Wally: "In that case, I don't want one!"
Currently working on:
Nothing at the moment.
Apprentices you talk to are always within 2 levels of you. Their stats (including level), whether joining you or fighting you, are randomly generated upon entering a town they are in, if I recall correctly, and are derived from the formulas used in Elnard (with the boosted stats). This means getting Valsu as a partner at level 40 would be FAR, far better than levelling him up to 40.
What kind of tools were you considering building, Dromiceius? Figuring out how the RNG can be affected would greatly assist speedrunning, and this is a game I'd like to try TASing.
I'm not really here. Pressing Up+Down too many times glitched your graphics. And audio. Yeah.
About the apprentice level and stats in 7th, once it joins the team, new stats will be gained by the same formula as the main caracter, but he will keep the stats from the previous boosted formula.
If I remember well, getting a character, leveling, changing character, geting it back after a level or two and it was boosted.
My mind might be playing tricks on me, but I know for sure that any level gain within the party give stats using the low american formula, and level gains away give stats using the high original formula.
Have yet to prove if leaving a character and getting it back after one level or two would give all the stats that were lost using the "in party" formula.
What kind of tools were you considering building, Dromiceius? Figuring out how the RNG can be affected would greatly assist speedrunning, and this is a game I'd like to try TASing.
I was thinking I would just make a little console (DOS-like) app that takes an input (which you would get by looking at 7E006E) and outputs the damage modifier for the next 20 RNG values, and *hopefully* critical hits as well. Item drops and level-up bonuses would likely follow.
Silas wrote:
Have yet to prove if leaving a character and getting it back after one level or two would give all the stats that were lost using the "in party" formula.
Huh. Well, that shouldn't be too hard to test, if the need arises. Thanks for the tip.
When an apprentice leaves your party, the stats and levels he gained while in your party are completely ignored. If you talk to that apprentice again, he gains levels from the time that he joined you earlier, using the formula for apprentices not in your party.
On a tangentially related subject, the Patrof apprentice's level works differently. He starts at your level+5 when the Eygus sage moves out of the way, and never gains any levels after that. Stats are randomly generated when an apprentice levels up, which happens when the apprentice takes over Patrof, joins you, or attacks you outside of Patrof castle.
For direct RNG manipulation, I usually use a spreadsheet program, but I suppose your idea of making a DOS-like program will also work.
With the right tools to do it I would love to try TASing this game too. What is the minimum level you could beat the game at?
Guybrush: "I'm selling these fine leather jackets."
Wally: "Really?"
Guybrush: "No. I 'm lying."
Wally: "In that case, I don't want one!"
Currently working on:
Nothing at the moment.
That solely depends on how well you can manipulate luck I suppose... I don't remember anything about being at a certain level at any point in the game though
Yeah. Manipulation is definitely the key to this run. We have to be able to make the bosses miss. I know for a fact it's harder than hell to beat FOMA below 30 with no manipulation. The other bosses are hard too. When watching Dromiceius' run even with the manipulation he was doing Pison was still clobbering him. Course an edge-of-your-seat battle like that is really entertaining. But Pison is one of the weakest bosses in the game and if he could deal that much damage, I shudder to think of what the other bosses can do.
Guybrush: "I'm selling these fine leather jackets."
Wally: "Really?"
Guybrush: "No. I 'm lying."
Wally: "In that case, I don't want one!"
Currently working on:
Nothing at the moment.
For direct RNG manipulation, I usually use a spreadsheet program, but I suppose your idea of making a DOS-like program will also work.
D'oh. That's a much easier solution.
Tailz wrote:
Yeah. Manipulation is definitely the key to this run. We have to be able to make the bosses miss. I know for a fact it's harder than hell to beat FOMA below 30 with no manipulation.
I don't think there's much that can be done about that, aside from the fact that attack/defend/magic each produce different enemy behaviors. I think we might add 'escape' to that list, but I can't recall if it works or not.
Agility seeds, anyone? ;)
We should make a list of every seed in the game for now though.. +4 for a certain stat each time is definitly going to help, as it's better than a level up for that stat
I know you missed one in the 2nd town, to the left of the town in the trees, there is a protection seed there.
Would be fun if the guides on GameFaqs were a bit better =/
Tailz, if you want to try your luck @ this game, you should first record a test run of the game... not really an intensive test run for time I mean, but just manipulation
Like, don't try to manipulate as best/fast as possible, just do like Drom was doing... we only need to know what levels are optimal for certain parts.
Although, once we reach the brains, we can manipulate brain-only encounters (enter/exit town or something... probably a better way but meh)
Also, make sure that everytime you recruit an apprentice, they are 2 levels higher than you, I think that is the max.
Other note : I the cave with the 1st pison, we should kill that treasure chest monster... they can drop rare gems if you can manipulate them well enough, so it would be a quick 2500-5000 gold
Other note : I the cave with the 1st pison, we should kill that treasure chest monster... they can drop rare gems if you can manipulate them well enough, so it would be a quick 2500-5000 gold
Holy crap. Tricks can drop quite a few items... 1/16 chance of dropping opals or emeralds, 9/16 chance of topaz, 3/16 of ruby and 2/16 of sapphire.
That could be handy... hopefully the tricks will want to cooperate. I found them nigh impossible, and that was without trying to manipulate an emerald.
Tailz, if you want to try your luck @ this game, you should first record a test run of the game... not really an intensive test run for time I mean, but just manipulation
Like, don't try to manipulate as best/fast as possible, just do like Drom was doing... we only need to know what levels are optimal for certain parts.
I agree. There are too many unknowns late in the game that could affect what needs to be done early in the game.
Animand wrote:
Ok I'll get to work on a playthrough. I'll find out what levels are needed for the parts we're fuzzy on and how much manipulation will be needed/can be done. I'll upload my progress here. The first part will go through Romus.
Also, there are lots of hidden items throughout the towns. You can see them on these pages. Nitrodon showed me the first one and I found the second. It seems the only thing worth getting would be the Topaz in the Inn at Zellis. See for yourselves. Actually, upon further investigation there's a M Water and some other equipment that might fetch a nice price when sold.
Hidden Items Towns 1Hidden Items Towns 2
Guybrush: "I'm selling these fine leather jackets."
Wally: "Really?"
Guybrush: "No. I 'm lying."
Wally: "In that case, I don't want one!"
Currently working on:
Nothing at the moment.
wow, I never found a lot of those O_o
But this also made me think, we can also manipulate drops I assume? We could get a bunch of potion1 at the start instead of buying them like Drom did... I also know Brains drop Life Recovery (I actually have no idea what this is but meh, could be good lol... probably a type of potion).
This could also be a nice way of getting money, when monsters have a rare drop or something.
P.S : I take pity on whoever will be making the real run for this, manipulation for everything... Good luck Tailz =)
"Holy crap. Tricks can drop quite a few items... 1/16 chance of dropping opals or emeralds, 9/16 chance of topaz, 3/16 of ruby and 2/16 of sapphire.
That could be handy... hopefully the tricks will want to cooperate. I found them nigh impossible, and that was without trying to manipulate an emerald. "
Well, we could get 1 more level for that point... it would not take too long if we plan out the battles & it would make it much easier to kill the trick & manipulate him... Also don't forgot you will have 1 protection seed that you didn't take (+4 def) so it will help a bit... They usually take 2 hits to kill though, so you would only need to dodge 1 hit or block it I imagine
