Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Yes, like Cpadolf said, the key to performing the CWJ is actually to release the forward button for a single frame anytime during the jump. Doing this can bring the odds of a CWJ possibility from nil to almost guaranteed. Amazing little trick, eh?
So I just developed this incredible new Elite Pirate strategy. The only problem is that the x-ray scope is required, and the current 100% run route does not collect the x-ray until the end of the game. I spent some time trying to find a logical means of collecting it early, but in the end it would be slower. Oh well, I guess the application of this trick will never be used in a real run.
Let me explain how this works. I recently found out that the elite pirates can take damage even when they are not in their yellow attack form. When they throw their arms at samus, they are actually vulnerable for 2 frames. If you hit them with a charged/plasma/wave/ice, you will do 900 damage. They only have 1,800 hp, so 2 hits are required. If you turn on the x-ray just after it makes first contact and wait for 10 frames, they will become vulnerable again and a second hit will happen from just the one beam, killing them instantly.
here we go
The only thing I can think of that would be slower when getting the X-ray on the way to Maridia is waiting for the power bomb to go off when initially entering the room. Am I missing something, or is this enough to offset the gains from this strategy?
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Without screw attack samus cannot take as many spike boosts as was done in your run. If you collected the ice beam early, the drainer bug tech would become an option. Collecting the ice beam early may be slower overall.
Yes, like Cpadolf said, the key to performing the CWJ is actually to release the forward button for a single frame anytime during the jump. Doing this can bring the odds of a CWJ possibility from nil to almost guaranteed. Amazing little trick, eh?
Yeah, CWJ is the best trick ever. I did know about releasing the forward button for a frame already, I think my smv did that. I just couldn't get Samus to jump no matter what frame I pressed jump button. Maybe I just was too far from that ledge.
That was a very nice strategy. o_O Your creativity really has no limits.
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691
<BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
SNES9x 1.51 adds approximately 10 frames to each door transition, for "more accurate emulation".
I just did the following:
1) Opened SNES9x 1.43, Super Metroid.
2) Turned on my SNES, Super Metroid.
3) Went to the landing site on both games, opened the right door, cleared out the speed blocks, and walked all the way to the left, against the closed door there.
4) Began pressing "right" on my SNES controller and my Logitech USB controller.
5) Listened for discrepancies in closing door sound effect after traversing this long room and the short tube afterwards (which required to extra button presses). I had corresponding speakers on each side of me. (Yay stereo)
Now, these aren't conclusive tests I did obviously, and I did each one a few times, also doing visual checks to make sure I was pretty in-sync throughout that first room.
SNES vs. SNES9x 1.43 - sound effect was very very close, to the point that I was unable to determine which was first. (I had guesses, but no way to see if they were right)
SNES vs SNES9x 1.51 - sound effect was less than but nearly one full sound-effect length slower on SNES9x 1.51 than the console. Approxiamately 1/3 of a second, which is 20 frames, which is 2 door transitions at 10 frames extra apiece.
Don't take my word for it though - especially if you know a more accurate way of testing, then please test it out yourself!
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Joined: 3/25/2006
Posts: 850
Location: stuck in Pandora's box HELLPP!!!
If you can record a video of these door transitions on SNES and SNES9x then it should be pretty simple to compare by mixing the SNES's sound and SNES9x's sound together, outputting seperate speakers. The video being just for syncing purposes. The sound for comparing
Let me explain how this works. I recently found out that the elite pirates can take damage even when they are not in their yellow attack form. When they throw their arms at samus, they are actually vulnerable for 2 frames. If you hit them with a charged/plasma/wave/ice, you will do 900 damage. They only have 1,800 hp, so 2 hits are required. If you turn on the x-ray just after it makes first contact and wait for 10 frames, they will become vulnerable again and a second hit will happen from just the one beam, killing them instantly.
I first found this out on accident with super jump echoes. :P That might be the only place where super jump echoes are an actual useful weapon.
Though, it's apparently not very feasible to do so quickly. Saturn did so I think, but I think it was actually slower than using super missiles normally - it was useful mainly because it saved weaponry.
Hmm. Come to think of it, it might be interesting to use the enhanced chainsaw beam on them...
::edit:: Or not. If they block it, game crashes. If they are damaged by it, they get standard plasma invincibility, and it still takes 6 hits to kill them. :/
kwinse wrote:
Kejardon wrote:
Kriole wrote:
Samus is damaged by a Rinka in the opening.
That's a script action; no damage.
... it just dawned on me I know way too much about SM.
Well, I came up with an idea a few minutes ago that might improve the 49'07 Ceres Escape that Hero posted a while ago, and it worked. The new time is 49'08.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1468880059/ceresescape.smv
Note that only the last room was done by me, which was where the improvement came from. I used the first walljump when I was higher in the air which is what saved the time. I assume this was because I didn't slow down as much before reaching the first platform.
Lol, nice one, Taco.
Seems like we still have a lot of work to perfect the "perfect" parts. To get 49'15, we need 4 more frames.
To save a frame at the first jump in room 3, we need about 3-4 pixels of distance, which is unlikely to have gained solely through the optimization of subpixel position and acceleration over the span of two previous rooms. The scientist room is likely optimal as it is exactly as fast as on the way forward (103 frames), the corridor, however, isn't (95 frames forward, 97 backward, with the turnaround on the way to Ridley saving only one frame), but that is due to poor starting speed at the moment of entering it from Ridley's chamber.
At the same time, we haven't found a way to improve the upper part of zig-zag room either, which probably means it's optimal as well. So far the only way I see to get those 4 frames back is to enter the elevator shaft using turnaround animation while somehow avoiding hitting the ceiling of the hatch.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Is the level of optimization being put into the Ceres Escape also being put into the rest of the run(s)? I have read the notes from other runs in the past, so I know that there already is a very high level of optimization in these runs, however the past several pages have been dominated with efforts and arguments on how to improve this very small segment by a number of frames that's in the single digits.
Is the level of optimization being put into the Ceres Escape also being put into the rest of the run(s)? I have read the notes from other runs in the past, so I know that there already is a very high level of optimization in these runs, however the past several pages have been dominated with efforts and arguments on how to improve this very small segment by a number of frames that's in the single digits.
Apparently, most of the rooms near the beginning are now like that, but Ceres is unique in the amount of semi-uncontrollable obstacles like the automatic doors (which even have frame rules in addition to that) that impede any further improvements, otherwise it would have been no problem to improve it. That, and also the fact that the rooms are very small and have very few jumps overall, so it's all running for the most part.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Slightly relevant, and mostly for hero of the day: If going for real time, the turn-around jump into Ridley's room is slower than just running through the doorway. (At least it is according to my spreadsheet, which I didn't start separating real and in-game time until a bit later in my run)
Taco = awesome user name.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Remember, Saturn said he got his 49"15 not from perfect frame counts, since he said his was 3 frames slower.
I know there is an incredibly good reason for this, but once Ridley scoots off, why not stay in the lower right corner of the room, then arm pump over and hop up, then when you land start arm pumping again to go through the newly opened door (for more momentum/acceleration/what have you) rather than simply wait at the door and then start running?
Also, Taco: someone has gotten 49"15, which is driving everyone else mad trying to at least match it. That's a good motivator.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
yeah JXQ, I remember you telling me this a long time ago. I recently tested this, and it is 3 frames faster in real time to just run through the door instead of doing the collision detection trick.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
samus' hit box radius plays a part in how much lag is added to door transitions. The bigger the radius, the less lag there is usually. I cannot however, explain why it happens.
Anyone know the memory address for the space jump cooldown counter (the amount of time is takes before you can jump again)? I can usually find the address myself, but this one is eluding me.
Because you're looking for the wrong thing.
There is a minimum and a maximum speed allowed for space jumping. If you want to know if Samus can space jump, you need to check her vertical speed (7E0B2D). 0080 to 0500 for water, 0280 to 0500 for air.
kwinse wrote:
Kejardon wrote:
Kriole wrote:
Samus is damaged by a Rinka in the opening.
That's a script action; no damage.
... it just dawned on me I know way too much about SM.
Just though I might ask, Hero are you going to use only 1 pausescreen in your new run? AI killing botwoon and draygon without the wave PB combo, or will you simply have to little ammunition for this.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Thank Kejardon, it all makes sense now :)
Cpadolf:
My old run had 3 pause screens, 1 of which can now be avoided. I have no choice but to turn off the spazer and ice beam, because with them equiped the huge shinespark 2 rooms before draygon would not be possible. Without the hijump boots, the shinespark has about a 0 frame margin for error (much like torizo skip). The only beam that can open the door fast enough to make the spark possible is the solo wave beam. Of course since I turn off the spazer and ice beam, I must spend another pause screen to turn them back on.
The pause screen that I can now eliminate is the one I used for the gravity jump in draygon's room. I plan on using bombs jumps to exit his room while he is slowly exploding. I will be right next to the exit door as soon as it becomes flashing. This is a MASSIVE timesaver, both in-game and realtime. The trouble is that it will require very tedious energy management, but should be possible.
I have no choice but to turn off the spazer and ice beam, because with them equiped the huge shinespark 2 rooms before draygon would not be possible. Without the hijump boots, the shinespark has about a 0 frame margin for error (much like torizo skip). The only beam that can open the door fast enough to make the spark possible is the solo wave beam.
No, it's not really all bad like that. It's possible to open the door (and enter it) a frame later, and still make the spark. I first thought to try charging the beam to make it longer or dopplering it to make it hit the door faster, but it turned out it wasn't even needed. The only mandatory prerequisite was to land on the platform when the spark timer read 27.
Here you go.
I guess it eliminates yet another pause screen?
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
haha, awesome! :D
Now I have to do a good amount of new tests. Right off the bat, I lose 60 frames to botwoon. I don't even know how I would handle Draygon. Weapons are gonna be so depleted by that point. Getting to botwoon with 10 super missiles might not even be feasible, since there is a green door en route. Though eliminating the final 2 pause screens would save some good real time and make it into a pause menu free run.
The trouble is that it will require very tedious energy management, but should be possible.
You'll leave ridley with 399 energy.
-72 shinespark
-48 shortcut through the lava
-65 second shinespark
-40 damage boost
-2 lava
-50 damage boost
-59 diagonal shinespark in maridia
-127 pre-draygon shinespark
-110 draygon-kill
-123 shinespark after draygon.
-69 last shinespark in maridia
29 energy left after the emergency stop.
so you'll have to get 395 energy along the way. You got 180 after botwoon and 215 after draygon.
you'll need more ammo to clean maridia: 4 Super missiles for botwoon, and either some ammo or more health for a longer charge against draygon. Since you waste all rockets on ridley, you'll have to get those additional ammo refills between ridley and draygon, so you can't just manipulate more health drops. You'll have less.
Let's say you manage to avoid touching the two enemies in lower norfair, saving 90 energy. You can probably shave off a bit of energy on some shinesparks here and there. You'll still need >120 energy and at least 4 additional super missiles between ridley and draygon. Where do you intend to get them without wasting too much time?
