Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
With wormin', I mean when you kill him and he's exploding. He'll randomly move about, and this caused desynchs every time I'd hex edit the stage. I was doing something with marina, and she'd screw up, then she wouldn't grab the star properly.
in western world, the clancers do come. but the exact position I need the clancers in does not come unless I do the exact boost grabs to go through the stage as I did, and if I grab the gun clancer at a certain frame, and slide jump over in a certain way. If I did anything differently, the clancers would be in a different position, and I wouldn't be able to OHKO him.
Chilly dog I can't say anything without revealing what I do, but my faster technique involves a little bit of luck manipulation of sorts. Chilly dog's movements are kind of random when he's running about, but his reaction algorithms for what he does when you do certain things is very predictable and not random.
Only the giant beam clancer boss is random? Odd, I could have sworn the pot clancer was random. He certainly looks random.
Inner struggle the words come up related to Marina's position? Good to know, good to know. I was going to TAS the stage multiple times on multiple frames, but thank goodness I probably won't have to do that.
Edit: Do people want to see me complete the day of events in sequential order (which would make it easier for me) or to vary it up a little?
Joined: 8/16/2006
Posts: 24
Location: New Brunswick
Thing with pot clancer is, like I said, there might be variants in patterns - but from what I've seen, the pattern you get with one of them will be the pattern for the other two as well - so really, your ideal sequence for one is going to be your ideal sequence for the other two as well... also, when I was playing around, I was able to stay in the air for very long periods of time if I could guess where the rocks were going to drop... the occasional up boost was all I needed (generally after 'freeing' a rock)... you'll see what I mean... but it looks pretty neat in my opinion... I look forward to that part in your TAS =P
As for day of - do whatever you like... in real time, I do all the dash events first because I hold the controller differently ... but that isn't an issue for you - so do whatever you like =)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Veysey wrote:
also, when I was playing around, I was able to stay in the air for very long periods of time if I could guess where the rocks were going to drop...
O_O I just had a time saving idea. need to write it down...
Yeah, the 7 clancers kid stage is incredibly improvable (not an insult to your talent, but a TAS simply will be able to save so much time). I know exactly how I'm going to save a huge amount of time on each boss, and in getting to the next boss.
I also look forward to starting world 4, specifically because that was the stopping point for Nitsuja. Even I have no idea how the stages will look overall compared to the speedruns. I mean, I have in my head spots where I'll improve the precision and I know places for tricks I will use, but I don't have a general feel for how the stages will look in general.
As for the day of events, I found an order than I'm happy with. It saves the two big show off events for last, and varies the dash events so they are not all in a row, which should keep audiences less bored. My choices are aimed to keep the best 'pace', which I think is important for people not to lose interest.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
<Comicalflop> I aim to be done by March 2008.
Tack on another 3+ months guys. Sorry.
Over at speedruns.net a mischief makers run got submitted. The entire quality is.... well, not good. (not even the song sequences are cancelled as soon as possible. And practically every stage is slower than nitsuja's/the speedrun times.) But in my never ending quest for perfection, I have to... yes, I hate to say it, redo.*
This should be just a few touch ups on a few stages. A lot of hexing can and will be done. But still, oy vey.
I am still 100% dedicated to the completion of this movie.
*Edit: shit, I need to do more touchups. Restarting from the beginning.... again again again.
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Oh my Flupsi... Don't expect DKC2 102% to not be in the works once you are done with MM.
"A few frame errors" how much could you be if you redo you think? If it's only like 10-20 frames. I say that you can just continue and redo the run later...
"A few frame errors" how much could you be if you redo you think? If it's only like 10-20 frames. I say that you can just continue and redo the run later...
I agree, 1/3 of a second is not noticable over 10 minutes...
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Here's the thing... I don't want my run to be rejected because of this:
The run is supposed to be fastest in-game time as the main goal, but I don't attain the fastest in-game times because I don't use the text trick to stop the timer in some of the stages. But I would have used the trick in 4-04 to make Teran walk faster (and it stops the clock), and that just doesn't make sense to only use it there and not anywhere else like I was going to do.
In terms of frames, if I were to redo to include the text trick, the total frame count of the movie would actually increase, but the overall times I would be getting would decrease.
As for a version 2... it's so much easier to make every stage perfect now then to go over and do another version. Compare:
"Mischief Makers by Comicalflop in 42:12.56"
obsoleted by "Mischief Makers by Comicalflop in 42:36.72"
The second version would, in fact, be longer because of the text trick.
Remember Nitsuja's S+K3 movie? Only 4 stages looked different in the 2nd version, because it was a touchup movie. If I were to continue, the touchup movie would only be a scant few stages that are improved, mostly because of adding the text trick. So the amount of time it'd take me to start a completely new version is actually more than if I redo the stages now, because remember I can hex in stages that are already perfect (which is a good percentage of the stages done so far, really.)
And plus, I've become a perfectionist. I'm considering redoing the Luigi Raceway course, I know I will be restarting the Spiderman 3 WIP, DKC2 102% is already restarted and only on stage 2, et. etc.
Here's how it all falls down:
1-01: complete
1-02: complete with text trick
1-03: complete with text trick
1-04: complete, 1 frame saved
1-05: complete with text trick
1-06: hexed
1-07: complete
1-08: hexed
1-09: complete
1-10: hexed
2-01: complete with text trick
2-02: hexed
2-03: hexed
2-04: hexed
2-05: hexed
2-06: currently reworking last round
2-07: possible redo*, if not, hexed
2-08: hexed
2-09: complete
2-10: hexed
2-11: redo because of known desynch (this one will hurt the most)
3-01: possible redo*
3-02: hexed
3-03: hexed
3-04: possible redo*
3-05: hexed
3-06: hexed
3-07: hexed
3-08: redo to account for luck manipulation
3-09: possible redo*, most likely hexed
3-10: possible redo somewhere because jump or hurdle event might desynch. All dash events are perfect, and will be hexed (because they are a pain in the ass to do)
* means a possible improvement because of the text trick.
Joined: 6/21/2004
Posts: 247
Location: New Hampshire
Comicalflop wrote:
Edit: now is also a really good time to persuade me whether to use the timer-stopping text trick or not.
Well, I personally don't really give a damn what the timer at the end of the level says. The amazingness of the run comes from the speed of play. I don't think the text trick is necessary, and it certainly wouldn't be grounds for rejection if you didn't include it.
Indeed, don't forget that cpadolf's faster ingame time slower in realtime SM run was rejected. I think you should use the trick in the instance where it saves real-time, I find one off tricks like that to make a run more intersting and less predictable.
I'm sciencing as fast as I can !
______________________________________
<adelikat> once more balls enter the picture, everything gets a lot more entertraining
<adelikat> mmmmm yummy penises
1. New entry rules have prevalence over obsoletion rules.
2. Super Metroid, Metroid Zero Mission and Metroid Fusion all had ingame-aimed runs published (even when obsoleting existing movies). Also, Sonic.
3. Formalities suck.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
more reasons:
-If I kept going as I would, but avoided the text trick completely, I would have a slower time than the speedrun world record in 4-04 rescue, both in-game and real time.
-I've had one run rejected for fuzzy rules, I do not want that to happen again. I was going to avoid the trick, use it once in 4-04, and still claim the run as in-game time based. That probably wouldn't have sat well with judges, because it would have been a hodgepodge mesg of in-game and realtime goals.
-The text trick I've noticed breaks up some monotony where I just move to the right and fly over eveything. You'll see when I'm done, but the trick is adding a ton of variety to the run, and I only just finished 1-04.
-cpadolf's run was semi-published (truncated rejected it so that he could insert it with the published run), so that's a bad example to use because there was a perfectly fine realtime goal SM by hero of the day. Is there already a mischief makers movie published? no? that's what I thought.
-Sonic games aim for fastest in-game times, then don't care about the slightly longer delays at the end of stages.
-There are many games where the real time speedrunning communities aim for the lowest in-game times. Mischief Makers is one of the most in-game time oriented speedrunning games I have ever seen.
-As I mentioned, I have spotted mistakes that I am fixing. At the risk of repeating myself, I do not want to submit a near perfect version then start working on a v2. My aim is to make as perfect a movie as I can make the first time around.
-Spacecow wrote:
The amazingness of the run comes from the speed of play.
The text trick adds to the overall speed of play. It will be quite similar to people liking the switch in Super Mario World from flying over the stage all the time to bouncing around on the ground and interacting with stuff.
-I want the movie to include every up to date trick and technique. Leaving it out seems silly, especially because it's a trick I know about currently, not something I discover 5 days before submission.
-My movie, my choice. Right?
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Only invalid when comparing to times that are achieved without it. However, any future run that aims for in-game time should use the clock stopping just as I do. Any real time run of the game (which will not be as good, IMO) doesn't need to use it, and should be using real time frames for comparisons, not the end level timer. (which is bad because the real time frame counter can be inaccurate as I've already stressed.) Over at SDA, things will work fine because the clock stopping has been labeled as a separate category, so clock stop achieved times cannot obsolete non clock stop times for when the game finally has individual level runs uploaded.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Well, you'll just have to wait, seeing as I'm going nuts trying out hundreds of different ways to beat Wormin' up juuuuuuust that much faster. So there's still a lot of stages to go, and there'll be less hexing than before due to new strats that I have to test. This last redo I did was worth it, trust me.
Okey Dokey, teaser time!
Also, the odds are very good (moreso than before) that a new plugin will be made by the time I am finished.
You have no idea how happy this makes me to hear that you're still active on this! I've been looking forward to this project ever since I first heard about it (Mischief Makers is still at least top 5 for my favorite platformers).
I do have a quick technical question though... I'm not sure if you can answer this or not, but... I'm debating doing a project that involves getting all S-Rankings for Mischief Makers (in addition to other things about the game) and I'm a little unclear on a certain technique that the GameFAQ's S-rank guide mentions.
Specifically, in the first level, they now say to do a Slide Jump off the tower while holding the guy. Now, you're supposed to throw diagonal down after you clear the platform, which supposedly gets you enough height to get on and go for the warp star. I can't get this trick to work though, I either get enough height, but can't get on due to my distance away, or I get too little height and can't clear the platform. Is there some trick I should be doing to make it work? For instance, should I be doing it so that I actually "push" myself into the side of the platform (resulting in some sort of warping up to the top of the block or something, I don't know)? Its one of the few tricks that I really, really have absolutely no idea how to make work (and I can't find a video of it...).
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
The fastest way up there is Boost Grabbing, but after getting the Mischief Makers Cartridge and trying that technique out myself, I can't really do it very well.
One thing you might want to try, if your reflexes are fast enough, is to throw the clancer diagonally down, to gain some height, then press one of the left or right C buttons mid air. if timed correctly, this will give you even more upward boost.
this is a video of 1-01 that gets a time of 10.67", it's probably the strat you're wanting. Do know that the BG strat has been achieved by humans too, getting roughly ~4 seconds faster than that video.
You mentioned about doing a MM project... is it TAS or speedrun?
Oh my god I'm an idiot. I can't believe I never thought of boosting up then throwing the Clancer down, dear lord.
Comicalflop wrote:
You mentioned about doing a MM project... is it TAS or speedrun?
Actually, its really neither. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the concept, but what I'm making is called a "Let's Play," it's essentially gameplay/commentary/general trivia of a game (generally the more obscure ones, though we get a lot of mainstream games as well). For more information on the subject you can go to The Let's Play Subforum. I would be making a specific subset of the Let's Play concept, namely a Video Let's Play (VLP)
My idea for the VLP is this: I would play a couple of the levels regularly first, this would be recorded live. The second section of the video would be those levels once more, but instead of just playing them it would be completely breaking the shit out of them in order to get S-Rankings. The second section would have to be pre-recorded, as its just too damn complicated for me to do live (plus, I'm relatively sure that no one wants to watch me sit there for large chunks of time reloading state and trying the same jump over and over again). The advantage to prerecording is not just saving time (and sanity), but would give me a chance to make some notes and talk about what is actually going on in the video and the tricks necessary to accomplish it. I guess if there was demand for it, I would make "Making of" videos for the S-rankings with some highlights of the process, or at the very least a general How-to.
So don't worry, I'm not going for anything like optimal times (as you're doing), in fact I don't even really care about being faster than the WRs (although that of course would be nice). I just want the S-Rankings for it (in fact, the concept pretty much revolves arond them). I plan on making a test video of it (fairly) soon, and I'll be sure to credit you with helping out with this technique (and any others that I may end up needing to ask about).
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Interesting. I have heard of let's play (having recorded 3 of them with Tompa.) I'm not the biggest fan of it, but go right ahead. MM is a very tough game in many situations, so prerecorded is definitely the way to go.
You should also do the locations for the gold gems, since people have trouble finding all 53, myself included. Especially since TheCape keeps forgetting to record for me the locations of all of them.
noooo, I'm getting so close to matching the WR......
and again!
