I don't quite understand why you selectively compare it to the 6% run only. The 14% run is not miles different from the three other movies, which all avoid using the same glitch.

I was selective in comparing to the 6% run as that was the run which obsoleted the 14% category; in an attempt to convey that the run was different enough not to warrant obsoletion. I didn't compare that point to the other runs as it wasn't relevant to my arguement. I could have been clearer in that though, apologies.

We also don't have a 16 star category at super mario 64 anymore.

i find this comparison moot. this run opts not to use a glitch that the 6% uses. the 16 Star and 0 Star (and 1 Star) use the same trick, just at different quantities.

Look Saturn I mostly agree with you and all that, but saying the small only SMW run is more different to SMW96 than your run is to SM100% is, like, the least accurate statement ever written in the history of the internet. Sorry.

But maybe the old 14% runs used different routes and older techs that got massively obsoleted by the new, never seen before ones in this run? Maybe that was enough of a reason to call this a "completely new run" even though the run mode was the same? Probably too hard to realize.

Yes, actually it is a bit too hard to realize for me. Remember that there are not many people on Earth who know as much about Super Metroid as you do, so some things seem obvious to you, but are hard to realize for someone like me. I hope that is not too hard to realize for you. By the way, I think many of my rejected submissions present a type of humor, which is "too hard to realize" for the major audience. There are many things in this world that are too hard to realize without serious effort, but it is completely OK. Personally, I can't always get much out of some highly philosophical paintings, for example. Same goes here, I can't get much out of this highly technical and delicately categorized run. It is a bit obscure to me at the moment. If I studied the game more and fully understood every detail of the route and the tricks, then I might get more out of it, but even then my personal enjoyment might have something to do with TASing in general and not so much with the AVI content. Funnily, even TASing itself is something "too hard to realize" for some people. Generally, things that are too hard to realize provide no good content for websites that aim for wide audience. That is why TASVideos does not have 1 000 000 000 million visitors each day. There are many other things out there, which are much easier to realize no matter what, so the viewers are lost "there", if you know what I mean. JXQ's input animations in the obsoleted 100% run were a "big thing" and even "sexy" in a sense, because they presented something that everyone could realize no matter what they knew about Super Metroid. The same kind of easily realized awesomeness is not presented here, even though it is true that some of the tricks are hard to perform, never seen before, very well optimized etc. You have mentioned many times yourself, that some community somewhere knows very well what you are talking about, when you use words like "legit" and OoBRORol or whatever that abbreviation was. That does not mean that everyone thinks they are awesome stuff. As a side note, my ex frowned at TAS movies! And guess what? That's why she's an ex! (Just kidding, she liked a few of them, the popular ones.) The TASer himself always sees more in the movies than anyone else. Try to live with it and enjoy what you have!

The question is about meaningful movie content. The case here was that the movie was considered not meaningful enough addition to the other movies.

By who, by one person who didn't even notice (as it seems) what's going on in the run due to not knowing the game very well by itself?

By who? Three judges, maybe? How many you need? If it is truly so, that even the judges didn't notice what was going on in the movie, then how could it be a good idea to publish such a movie?

Yes, actually it is a bit too hard to realize for me. Remember that there are not many people on Earth who know as much about Super Metroid as you do, so some things seem obvious to you, but are hard to realize for someone like me. I hope that is not too hard to realize for you.

I see what you mean of course. But as Larkin also said, the majority of people who will chose to watch this run will for sure be aware at least of the game itself, which will definitely make them notice and appreciate the new techs never seen before in this run. Just check the random YouTube comments on various SM TASes there for comparison. The people who watch such runs notice much more details in it than you might think they do.

The question is about meaningful movie content. The case here was that the movie was considered not meaningful enough addition to the other movies.

By who, by one person who didn't even notice (as it seems) what's going on in the run due to not knowing the game very well by itself?

By who? Three judges, maybe? How many you need? If it is truly so, that even the judges didn't notice what was going on in the movie, then how could it be a good idea to publish such a movie?

Who are unfortunately all not much into SM to make a reasonable statement about that. They just can't recognize the true value of this run and the many hard techs that costed me alot of work to perform, since they never tried to do them on their own to understand that. It's that simple. As said above, this is a exception and not the case for the majority of the audience who would chose to watch this run. If I'd be a judge but would have no clue about a particular game to make a reasonable decision, I better would leave it to somebody else who knows more about it. And if there is nobody, then I would at least consider all the comments the watcher, who actually know the game well enough, made, to make a as fair decision as possible. This is definitely not the case here, as the watchers got just ignored here, while the decision was made on a purely personal, uneducated (as it got even more clear by now), taste of the judge, with only the exception of the category problem, that I too agree is moot in a case like this.

but saying the small only SMW run is more different to SMW96 than your run is to SM100% is, like, the least accurate statement ever written in the history of the internet.

I actually agree, thats a matter of opinion of course. But the fact that "small only" represents the exact same conditions in SMW like the 14% does in SM compared to the 96-exit/100% run, is still obvious and can't be denied.

We also don't have a 16 star category at super mario 64 anymore.

i find this comparison moot. this run opts not to use a glitch that the 6% uses. the 16 Star and 0 Star (and 1 Star) use the same trick, just at different quantities.

Very important arguments for this TAS are: - The run has a history - Entertaining parts of the game have been skipped with the lowest% run - This run shows something different All of these arguments also apply to my example.

I keep seeing the arguement that this run is different enough from the published low% to warrant a second category, and that may be so... I personally haven't watched this run in order to find out. This arguement is incomplete though, because there are three other published runs that it also needs to differentiate itself significantly from. And, last I checked, none of those movies used the x-ray climb glitch, either. So my question to the people arguing that this run was rejected unfairly is this: Is there any aspect of the game that this shows off that is not covered in any of the four published movies?

Complete lack of Speed Booster and utter disregard to any shortcomings it should have introduced.

Isn't the complete lack of speedbooster visible in all the published runs up until the point that they acquire speedbooster...?

The complete lack of any item is obviously visible up to the point of acquiring that item. :) There would be no way to ever differentiate Super Metroid runs if we judged them by the first five minutes of gameplay.

So my question to the people arguing that this run was rejected unfairly is this: Is there any aspect of the game that this shows off that is not covered in any of the four published movies?

One of better points thrown out so far. The speed booster is abused (for good reason) a lot in the other runs, whereas this run skips it in favor of keeping as low a % as possible whilst not abusing game breaking Out of Room glitches. As such it introduces new techniques to progress through a large portion of the game, creating one of the more original SM runs i've seen in a long time. As said, all the new improvements may not be blatantly obvious to the public as a whole, but I think its been mentioned many times the target audience is people at least familiar with SM or TAS'ing in general, in which case they would be able to appreciate the high level of skill and optimization in the run. Personally, if a game is as highly TASable as SM, and has quite a large following (Judging by a 180page topic supporting it) what is the issue with having more categories? I honestly cannot see why the site would suffer by adding the traditional low % category once again. At the end of the day, its just another page or another link for someone to click. Whats the damage?

Personally, if a game is as highly TASable as SM, and has quite a large following (Judging by a 180page topic supporting it) what is the issue with having more categories? I honestly cannot see why the site would suffer by adding the traditional low % category once again. At the end of the day, its just another page or another link for someone to click. Whats the damage?

oh god you are so damn right! my respect for this post :)!

If we're talking about differences here... What does the in-game offer compared to the others aside from a slightly different route? Initially that was just a mention in the real-time's movie description, but Saturn's insistence that it was "objectively more entertaining" (or something to that effect) ended up making it its own category. If any category is redundant, I think it's that one. *hasn't watched ANY of the Super Metroid runs, so who the crap is he to say anything?*

I can't see why this run is seen as being the most redundant. I personally think having 2 any% runs one going for ingame time then another going for realtime is far more incredulous. Edit: Whilst I still maintain that additional categories wouldn't be a bad idea, to the people who argue there is already too many, how do you feel about having 2 any% runs on the site, both aiming for speed with one clearly faster?

The ingame one had faster gameplay, whereas the realtime one was simply shorter in movie length

*hasn't watched ANY of the Super Metroid runs, so who the crap is he to say anything?*

Well, this is exactly the kind of situation I would like anyone to avoid at all costs. There's zero use in arguing without having watched everything that pertains to the subject of the argument. I thought you'd know that.

Hypothetical question time: Say that I have been involved in a very passionate speed running community for Spider-man 3 for several years. It's a game that features fast paced action, with a variety of fighting moves and many different ways to travel through the short levels. In this speedrunning community, goals such as aiming for fastest time to complete the game, and fastest time to collect all the web and power tokens, are commonplace. Because the community has been around for so long, many members have begun to get creative with their goals. One such goal that has popped up is beating the game without web-zipping (max speed 1800), and using only web-swinging (max speed 1280), as this makes it easier for the enemies to try to attack you. This goal is often combined with the goal of only using punches to kill enemies (since they deal about 3/4 of the damage as kicks), as this makes the game harder to complete for speedrunners. For argument's sake, let's say that when you do complete the game using only punches, you get a nice "Thumbs Up" graphic at the end of the game to validate your accomplishment. Members have a great time competing to find new and inventive ways of getting through each level with these restrictions, and new techniques are found every 3-4 months (some of which are only reproducible with frame precision). Now, bring this hypothetical situation into reality. SM (Super Metroid, not Spider-man) has a long-standing speedrunning community, with many competitive members. Since typical goals have long been thoroughly mastered, some more inventive goals have popped up to increase the difficulty for speedrunners. Trying to complete the game with as few items as possible would certainly challenge a speedrunner in real life. However, it is essentially an artificial challenge, much as the example I outlined above is. Both artificial challenges cause some non-negligible total movie time increase, due to decreased speed of movement, and longer boss fights, which isn't a big deal for speed-runners, as the trade-off in the form of increased difficulty, to further prove their mastery of the game. For a TAS however, the artificial challenge provides very little extra challenge, due to perfect reflexes and boss HP watching. Sure, there's some differences in route planning, due to some TAS-only tricks that aren't available to regular speedrunners. But once the planning is done, the rest of the movie is roughly as hard to make as a regular any% run. If I were to submit a Spider-man 3 movie to TASvideos.org with the above restrictions, just because it's a valid category for another community, I would likely get laughed at. The TAS would be slower than other published runs due to less than optimal movement speed (no speedbooster), and less than optimal boss fights (very little ammo). Both restrictions make the run slower to watch, slower to complete, and all for the sake of a graphical reward (whether it be a "thumbs up", or an "items collected 14%"). True, some of the techniques used may be only available to a TAS, but due to the depth of research into the game, many of the new tricks will be lost on the general audience. Arguing that this movie should be accepted because the goal is thought of as valid in another community is argumentation without proper logic. This site is its own community with its own set of rules, rules which shouldn't be influenced by another community's prior history. If this run showed something new and different to the general public that the previous 4 runs did, it would likely be given much more thought. However, the artificial restrictions in this run make both the general rate of movement slower than the other runs, but also lengthen the boss fights considerably, all in an effort to see the number "14" at the end of the game, and to demonstrate some new techniques that likely will only be noticed by people who intimately know the game. This is not a bad movie, nor is it lacking in entertainment. But it does not conform to the rules of the site as they are written right now. If you'd like to go about trying to change the rules of this site, feel free to do so. But criticizing those who enforce the rules simply because you wish this site was more like a SM speed-running community is both childish and counter-productive. As has been said before, the core audience of this movie is likely to be those involved with SM speedrunning, in which case, I would suggest you proudly post it in a thread on a site such as mk2k. In any case, I'm done weighing in on this topic, unless it's via PM for clarification of something already said.

If this run showed something new and different to the general public that the previous 4 runs did, it would likely be given much more thought.

Thats's exactly what it does: showing something completely different than the 4 other runs do, and the general audience noticed it very well and appreciated it. And despite it's a run mode first introduced in the speedrunning community, just like the ingame-oriented any% is (which nevertheless makes one of the most entertaining TASes on this site judging by the rating it received), it's a TAS that is just as entertaining due to being very unique in itself. And TASes mainly belong to a site like this. And since you persist to be against this run because of the "artificial restrictions", at least stand to your point by addressing what the difference is between a "small only" SMW run and this one then? It got the exactly same "artificial challenge" that only slows you down in many levels due to not being able to fly with the help of Cape Mario or not allowing to ride Yoshi, and because of that even makes it impossible to clear a few other levels, making it not even a complete run in the end. It increases the game completion time because of that, provides less entertainment than the 96-exit run overall, and in the end doesn't even show any graphical reward to confirm that goal unlike in this situation with the 14% displaying. Yet it makes a good addition because of the small only restrictions since it shows otherwise never seen before techs and thus a unique run, and this is the exactly same case in a 14% run as well. So where is the difference between this two runs?

It increases the game completion time because of that, provides less entertainment than the 96-exit run overall

No I suppose in your ideal world there will be 100 runs of Super Metroid. Each one of course showing a different percentage of completion.

Look, people who were disapointed to see this run rejected. Stop comparing this submission to just one run. You seem blind to the fact that there is a 100% run, a non-glitched any% and a ingame any%. I don't know about you but that to me seems crowded enough already. You can hardy accuse the site of not giving the game favourable treatment. The low% is an obselete goal thanks to the X-ray glitch. Low% tend to be a popular goal when playing the game normally, given that the player will be limited by the amount of health, weapons and ammo they have. Which will make the game considerably harder to play through without dying. In terms of TASing, survival is relatively trivial when you have access to savestates and frame advance.

*hasn't watched ANY of the Super Metroid runs, so who the crap is he to say anything?*

Well, this is exactly the kind of situation I would like anyone to avoid at all costs. There's zero use in arguing without having watched everything that pertains to the subject of the argument. I thought you'd know that.

Hey, at least you now have the voice of the uninformed peruser. THAT has to count for something... shouldn't it?

*Watched it all* This is very awesome! The goals are quite clear to me and the run itself was very entertaining. Good job Saturn. EDIT: Also, I agree with the SMW small only thing that Saturn said.

Like I said earlier, there's already two any % runs on the site, both aiming for speed but one clearly faster due to glitching. Why didn't the previous Any % get obsoleted when the faster one was created? It seems a very similar situation that there is the non glitched low % and the glitched low % but in this case the goals are arbitrary or diffuse or whatever, when I think the majority have agreed this is not the case. It's the fact there seems to be some senseless restriction on the number of categories that's causing the trouble, I ask once again kindly, what's the issue with another link to click on the site?

Rejected!