I'd argue that restricting "out of room travel" is way less arbitrary than banning a specific item.
ALttP didn't restrict up+down, the unglitched run just didn't use it to travel between unconnected rooms.
Castlevania HoD luckily didn't ban the whip in the unglitched maxim version, just the Wall-sinking to travel outside of the rooms.
So there's precedent and specifying the intent rather than the tool will not force us to re-evaluate these rules once Kejardon figures out how to blow up zebes with a power suit, an old bubble gum and a piece of yarn.
Frequent visitor, first time register, first time poster. So, I realize may opinion or view on this interesting discussion may not be equally relevant to the individual members of the community.
However, it's still a valid view and, as I find the discussion quite interesting, one I would like to share.
In my humble opinion, the question becomes 'What is 100%?'. That is different for each and every videogame and for some, very hard to tell indeed. However, for Super Metroid, it seems rather simple. The game tells you your item completion rate after a run. That is a very definite and hard measure by which to rule. And a very convenient one. As there is no room for interpretation or error.
So, in short... to this particular avid TAS viewer (me), what would make up a 100% run of Super Metroid? One that collects all items. If that involves somehow and for some reason glitching past entire sections of the game - I vote 'Yes'. For non-glitched, actual real time gameplay 100% completion videos, we have SDA and the like.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Let's say that one were to use Xray glitching on the 100% run....
What is to keep this new run from being obsoleted by another 100% run which uses the plasma/spazer beam to prematurely explode the planet. I can confirm this is entirely possible on the real console and on many different emulators.
When we enter the realm of game breaking glitches (which xray falls into) then we also have to consider the very extreme (space/time). If xray is used, I would expect the space/time beam to used as well. It would be only fitting.
Do you guys honestly want the game to be broken to that extent?? It wouldn't even be entertaining anymore. This is why the glitched run has the lowest rating of all published runs; because excessive glitching is not nearly as watchable as each room being expertly played.
However, it's still a valid view and, as I find the discussion quite interesting, one I would like to share.
That's a perfectly valid opinion in itself, but there is one part that bothers me.
Kharay1977 wrote:
For non-glitched, actual real time gameplay 100% completion videos, we have SDA and the like.
So, if SDA and the like are for "non-glitched, actual real time gameplay 100% completion videos", what exactly is TASVideos for, in your opinion? Because for me, also an avid viewer, it isn't lowest possible numbers of whatever. I fully endorse maximum precision — it's always a good thing — but sacrificing awesomeness just to fill the quota for lower completion time rubs me the wrong way every time.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Joined: 11/27/2004
Posts: 688
Location: WA State, USA
hero of the day wrote:
This is why the glitched run has the lowest rating of all published runs; because excessive glitching is not nearly as watchable as each room being expertly played.
The glitched run has such a low rating because of the 5-minutes of X-Ray climbing through the statue room. A 100% run using X-Ray glitching would not have anything approaching that level of monotony, especially if we went with Tub's Non-Arbitrary Restrictions (TM).
The glitched beams are an entirely different matter. The murder beam was ugly, repulsive, unentertaining, and known to easily crash the game. Despite poor viewer response to it, it was used anyway because it was the fastest way to kill Mother Brain at the time. Fortunately, we've found faster and more entertaining methods since then.
The space/time been has never been used because it's highly unstable, known to behave differently in different emulators, and breaks any semblance of game logic. Also, using it would probably provoke worse viewer response than the murder beam did.
The chainsaw beam, on the other hand, hasn't been used yet because nobody has bothered. IIRC, it comes with none of the major drawbacks of the other two beams (unstability, lag, sprite glitching, etc.), but also comes with the potential for a very entertaining Ridley fight. The only thing that remains to be seen is whether it's any faster or not.
Nach wrote:
I also used to wake up every morning, open my curtains, and see the twin towers. And then one day, wasn't able to anymore, I'll never forget that.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
RT-55J wrote:
hero of the day wrote:
This is why the glitched run has the lowest rating of all published runs; because excessive glitching is not nearly as watchable as each room being expertly played.
The glitched run has such a low rating because of the 5-minutes of X-Ray climbing through the statue room. A 100% run using X-Ray glitching would not have anything approaching that level of monotony, especially if we went with Tub's Non-Arbitrary Restrictions (TM).
I honestly find it hard to believe that people lowered their rating of a movie, because it contained a single 5 minute chunk of xray climbing. That part could have easily been fast forwarded past. It would be a bad reason to lower the entertainment rating. Rather, I think people voted low, because the run shows off much less of the game. In fact, the more of the game that is shown, the higher the ratings tend to get.
100% - longest movie, shows most rooms (highest rating)
any% - middle movie, shows slightly less of the game (lower rating)
glitched - shortest movie, shows very little of the game (lowest rating)
The 100% run should show as much of the game off as possible, not skip major portions of it. If I wanted to see the game broken, I'd watch the glitch run.
Joined: 11/27/2004
Posts: 688
Location: WA State, USA
I was under the impression that people usually don't take fast-forward into account or dock points if fast-forward is necessary for enjoyment when rating a run. Perhaps a poll could determine whether this is the case for most people or not.
Anyways, I still think that applying a "no out-of-bounds" restriction to the X-Ray Scope is the best way to go, rather than banning it altogether. That way, the only thing we'd miss is the Gravity Statue, which happens to the most boring part of the game (period).
Nach wrote:
I also used to wake up every morning, open my curtains, and see the twin towers. And then one day, wasn't able to anymore, I'll never forget that.
another infrequent poster here with an opinion
If what cpadolf says is true, "the only places we know it can be used is to skip Mother Brain, the baby metroid and the gravity statue walk.", I would advocate using the glitch. Some may disagree, but I think Tourian is one of the more boring parts of the run (particularly the second form of mother brain), and the statue walk has no entertainment value, so I don't think the run would lose anything important if the glitch were used. There is also the wow factor from seeing something so unexpected which is a great part of TASing to me. And it won't be as long and boring as the statue room climb in the low% run.
My opinion would change if xray glitching could be used to do something more radical like glitching the memory that holds item collection rate without actually collecting the items.
I think the spacetime beam is in a different category because IIRC Kejardon said it may behave differently on console vs emulator, or even between two different SNESs.
My opinion would change if xray glitching could be used to do something more radical like glitching the memory that holds item collection rate without actually collecting the items.
Here is an encode of the comparison script comparing the recently published run by Taco and Kriole with it's predecessors:
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0y0-73n5BE8
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97crP9jsb5w
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h92PXmRZ2l0
The movies it is being compared to are:
Purple: Cpadolf's in-game oriented any% v2
Red: Herooftheday's realtime oriented any% v2
Blue: Cpadolf's in-game oriented any% v1
Green: Herooftheday's realtime oriented any% v1
Gray: Namespoofer's non-glitched speedboster low%
As usual, only in-game frames are displayed and used for sync, and the runs are re-synced at room entry to ease comparison. The numbers at the top of the screen display how many in-game frames behind a movie is compared to the current submission. This number makes most sense when the routes are similar.
Joined: 2/18/2007
Posts: 63
Location: New York City
Cpadolf wrote:
In Super Metroid Snes9x 1.51 was shown to be less accurate than 1.43, right? I'm asking because I wonder if we should stick to 1.43 even though there has been a push to increase use of 1.51.
Saturn wrote:
I recommend to stick to 1.43+. Not only do you avoid a risk to experience annoying desyncs, it's emulation is also more accurate to the real SNES during door transitions, as JXQ proved a couple of years ago. That, and the direct realtime comparison to the previous run would also be possible, which is a good thing.
Anything about bsnes that makes it not ready for prime time?
Is there any work in progress for Super Metroid? Any%, RBO, 100% or low% run? I know Saturn made a low% run some time ago, but seeing it wasn't optimized with the newest tricks, it would be nice to see a Low% (ice) run. It would be great to see a 100% and a RBO too.
Both any% are about as good as they get. As far as I know there are no new tricks known for them aside from frame-scale optimizations.
100% is pretty good already, but a new one is in the works (see a couple pages back).
Low%-speed is close to perfect. Low%-ice is good for the most part, but I don't think there's anyone planning on improving it. Even in that case there aren't that many known improvements for it (probably 25-30 seconds in total, NameSpoofer should correct me on this).
I think an RBO run is in the works.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Kriole and NameSpoofer have both finished RBO runs, with NameSpoofer's the faster of the two. They're both in this thread somewhere, but I don't remember where.
I watched NameSpoofer's run, but some time ago he said it could be faster with new tricks and a better route he was thinking about. Maybe he's already working on something... or not?
I watched NameSpoofer's run, but some time ago he said it could be faster with new tricks and a better route he was thinking about. Maybe he's already working on something... or not?
Currently, there is no faster route for the 14% speed/realtime any% than the one used in my run. There are most definitely improvements regarding some 1-framers and luck manipulation, I believe that was it though.
Trained by Cpadolf. Mission: To Perfect.
Hero says: Yeah bro, I almost went super saiyan once
My SM-RBO
Current Project(s):
1)I don't TAS anymore! Pay me!
I watched NameSpoofer's run, but some time ago he said it could be faster with new tricks and a better route he was thinking about. Maybe he's already working on something... or not?
Currently, there is no faster route for the 14% speed/realtime any% than the one used in my run. There are most definitely improvements regarding some 1-framers and luck manipulation, I believe that was it though.
Sorry man, i was talking about you RBO run. IIRC you said it coud be faster if you avoid to get the Energy Tank in the Crateria Gauntlet and get a Reserve tank on the bubbles room in Norfair.
There's an ultimate route that's just been recently created. The tests show it has beaten my run to Ridley by over minutes. Holy crap right?
Trained by Cpadolf. Mission: To Perfect.
Hero says: Yeah bro, I almost went super saiyan once
My SM-RBO
Current Project(s):
1)I don't TAS anymore! Pay me!
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
I figured this thread needed some rejuvenation. Here are 3 new highly advanced techs I developed for a future 100% run. All three techs use a similar principle (speed preservation), but in different ways.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/603799561/gravitystatue.smv
Tech 1 - Super Quick Gravity Statue
This tech uses the speed preservation trick in combination with the forward damage boost tech. This is a damn fine looking tech.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/261730260/xrayspark.smv
Tech 2 - Red Brinstar Super Short Charge Finally Executed
Once thought impossible... we can now spark all the way to the Xray room!
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/225737134/topofWS.smv
Tech 3 - Top of Wrecked Ship
A pretty big timesaver, though it would be hard to spot the difference from what is currently used unless you knew to look for it.
I made an interesting observation about the speed preservation trick. The trick can only be executed on an object that causes the '60' frame damage recovery. Almost every creature in this game will cause 95 frames of invincibility to samus after being hit, but there are certain thing]s that will only cause 60 frames of invincibility. These things include spikes and electric sparks. I am sure there are others to be found. There would have been a sick amount of other techs if this rule did not exist.
Thanks for sharing your finds. I liked the gravity statue room and specially the x-ray shinespark. The Wrecked ship trick seemed slower to me but i'm using just my eyes to mesure... if it's faster too... Wow! The X-ray Shinespark seems to require a specific route to execute, is that right? Seems you have to be going to the bottom.
