So I've just read this stupid war and let me put a disclaimer first: what I'm going to write below is not aimed at invalidating MrGrunz's opinion, but rather the premises it was built upon and the way it was presented.

as I'm an OoT TASer myself, I just can't stand all the sloopiness shown in this TAS. bloobiebla set the level an OoT TAS must have and this TAS is far away from reaching the same level. in my opinion it's just not ok to publish such a run, because people, that are not really experienced with speed running zelda (not actually TASing) will think, that this guy did the most optimized and best TASer ever. it's sad enough, that most people on youtube still think, that guano's TAS is the best TAS ever made :/ when I or anybody else works on a TAS he works hours and hours on every little thing to really optimize it, but when you then read people calling this brilliantly played you start to think: "why am I actually trying to optimize? it's pointless, the average viewer won't notice, so let's just make a quick TAS without trying to optimize at all"

I'll tell you how it reads. "This run shouldn't be published because the player doesn't deserve to be thought of as the best, people should know I'm the best! If this run is published I won't feel good enough about my work because my ego is fragile and dependant on the crowd's opinions". Another thing to consider is that this run might have been started well before you found some of the early-stage improvements. 200k rerecords on a completed run is a great body of work regardless, and your opinion and criticism, while technically valid, were presented in a very disrespectful way in the earlier posts. Bad English is not an excuse. You don't see Japanese insulting others, and the language barrier is more pronounced there (I take it that you, or at least your native language, come from Europe).

hmm Raiscan, to me this website is about TASing a game to its limits, so saving every fucking frame possible, while still trying to entertain. […] and yes, tasvideos is about obsession with optimizing or what do you think do TASers try to save every fucking frame possible?

Grunz, seriously, if it happens that you complete your fucking run and it's made known to me that you have missed at least one fucking frame's worth of optimization, route improvement or whatnot, you'll be getting the most fucking deserved "no" vote in the history of the site from me, without even watching. I'm dead fucking serious. ;) (I also hear foul language and condescending smilies add weight to your words!)

This whole website is build on the competition between the many TASers trying to beat the games faster and faster

And this TAS is faster than whatever we have, so it makes sense. And no, to rule out a misconception, it's not really built on the competition. It's built on Bisqwit's desire to build a comprehensive and well-informed resource about tool-assisted speedruns. Competition came afterwards when people realized they could do better. And pretty much the entire catalogue of TASes on the site has been submitted with known improvements, save a few perfected games like Donkey Kong or SMB.

the average viewer doesn't notice wether you saved the 6 frames you worked 5 hours on or not ;)

It's good to see you're smart enough to realize that. Now be smart enough to realize that these 6 frames are not supposed to impress the average viewer. They never had. And you're not supposed to create your TAS to feed your ego, so this run shouldn't stop you from working on your own even one bit. If you think that creating a faster version isn't worth it anymore because this run has already done the job of impressing everybody you wanted to impress, then you have effectively devalued your work. This run is already submitted, it's been seen by thousands of people, there's no turning back.

Moozooh missed a semi-important point. Even if it hadn't been submitted here, this run was already seen by thousands of people since it was already on Nicovideo.

As I have said, time savings during text in cutscenes are a misnomer; it is the gameplay itself that people should be focusing on. This being the case, a run being hard to follow or not based on the cutscenes alone is a bit of a misnomer. TASes are not meant to be easy to follow; they are meant to complete games as quickly, as thoroughly, and/or as entertainingly as possible, and in my view the entertainment value is in the gameplay, not in anything that the language present has any impact on.

Eh, this is all good in theory, but the fact is that there will always be a difference of opinion on what can be considered most entertaining. Different audiences get different things out of TASs. For a lot of story-driven RPGs I like TASs because they're a lot faster than Let's Plays and I don't have to listen to some man-child having to pretend like they can spout inane banter like a radio disk jockey; the cut scenes are in those cases an important part of the nostalgia. That's why I'd rather watch the obsoleted Earthbound run than the current one. Of course gameplay is the meat of any TAS, but still, when half of what's left when you're done glitching through a game is cut-scenes it's hard to ask that people just be ambivalent to them. The average person is either going to want them to go away quicker or to have them be at least skimmable (ie., in a language they can read).

Moozooh missed a semi-important point. Even if it hadn't been submitted here, this run was already seen by thousands of people since it was already on Nicovideo.

This run is already submitted, it's been seen by thousands of people, there's no turning back.

Your inattention disappoints me. ;b

I voted yes. But there's one thing I've found 10 times as entertaining as the actual run. And that's this little discussion here. xD I've known about all of these glitches before. I know MrGrunz could make this more entertaining and faster even if it was seemingly perfectly optimized. But I also know he has to finish another run first. And I'm not sure if he'll find the motivation to do a TAS of this game afterwards. He's really pushing himself a lot and investing loads of time, I'm amazed he hasn't given up on his MM run yet. (Restarted twice so far? TASed all the temples in advance. Insane level of precision, almost as if he was in a constant framewar with himself. Etc.) About the OoT big three, I'm not sure if they are as motivated as they used to be to do this run.. I don't expect to see an improvement to this for a while. ^^ As for the language, I don't care much about the J version being used. I skip the cutscenes anyway, as they always annoy the hell out of me in this game. Theoretically, the J-version would be cooler then because the movie's file size would be lower with practically the same content. ;p But I really don't care. This run is far from being optimized well. Since I've already known about all of the tricks, only ultra-optimization could have added some entertainment value for me. So, I'm definitely looking forward to a run like that. About the obsoletion thing.. Let's look at it somewhat like this: If this run had been submitted like a year (or more) ago out of nowhere, it would have certainly met the standards of this site. (Because nobody could have told it was improvable by that much.) Guanobowl's run has been published for a much longer timespan than that... This run.. might not be the best.. *looks awfully concerned* And it certainly will never replace Guanobowl's run in my heart. *speaks with a shaky voice* As one of the greatest runs ever.. I'm sure many of you.. *exhales* Feel the same. But!.. I think it's finally time to be strong... and let it go. Just let it rest in peace! *sniff* Farewell, Guanobowl's run! We'll certainly miss you! *bursts into tears*

Voted yes. Why wouldn't I? Looking forward to watching it!

I watched the first 30 minutes or so. I quit because I found it extremely difficult to follow, since I'm not privy to all the tricks in this game. As such, I'm asking all sorts of questions that obviously have answers, such as:

• Why was time spent stealing the fisherman's hat?
• How did you get the golden scale as a kid?
• Why was each bottle drop/regrab necessary?
• Why did the game go into the six-pendant sequence when you had no pendants?

Subtitles would be a helpful way of educating the viewer as to why these actions were taken, and I think it would make the non-expert enjoy the run more. Similarly, subtitles (or commentary?) could be added to talk about spots that could be improved. I do think it's fascinating that so many different sequence breaks and strange glitches are used in this game. Usually something that really breaks the game ends up being used exclusively, but there's a decent amount of variety here. I just can't follow it. Fabian lol

• Why was time spent stealing the fisherman's hat?
• How did you get the golden scale as a kid?
• Why was each bottle drop/regrab necessary?
• Why did the game go into the six-pendant sequence when you had no pendants?

Curiously, all four of these are connected to a memory manipulation glitch by the name of Reverse Bottle Adventure. I won't pretend to understand the details, but by putting a bottle on the B button, emptying and refilling the bottle causes memory to be manipulated, including, say, the number of medallions you have.

• Why was time spent stealing the fisherman's hat?
• How did you get the golden scale as a kid?
• Why was each bottle drop/regrab necessary?
• Why did the game go into the six-pendant sequence when you had no pendants?

Curiously, all four of these are connected to a memory manipulation glitch by the name of Reverse Bottle Adventure. I won't pretend to understand the details, but by putting a bottle on the B button, emptying and refilling the bottle causes memory to be manipulated, including, say, the number of medallions you have.

An addendum to the first bullet; stealing the fisherman's hat was not necessary; it was only done for entertainment (no time was lost doing so, however). This was part of a glitch called "Steal the Fishing Rod". By diving in shallow water and casting the rod immediately after surfacing (the TAS directs the cast towards the hat so he can steal that too), you can take the Fishing Rod out of the Fishing Pond (usually the fisherman stops you from doing so). By getting the Fishing Rod outside, you can get a Deku Stick on B, which allows you to get a Bottle on B. The Golden Scale as a child is weird. For some reason, if you catch a fish that beats the record, then hold Z while getting out of the water, and keep holding it until you intiate a conversation with the fisherman, he will give you the Golden Scale.

Just fyi for you people: I wasn't against publishing this TAS. I was "meh" towards it. I just wanted to secure that the next runners are granted the same privileges this runner was. Meaning the J rom. Since it is clearly a lot faster to use it. And yeah I know that text speed doesn't figure into the judging but it does in the perception of the (very often spoken about) general viewer. It's just not fair for the guys making the next run to compete against a J rom with a U rom. But in the end I probably shouldn't worry. It seems you will accept any OoT run that is reasonably fast, no matter how many rules are screwed, anyway. So if they just do the run on J 1.2 they will be fine. ^^

1. Using the J rom isn't a privelege. It's an exception for a run that wasn't originally created for this site. 2. A new run on the U rom won't be competing against the time of this run on the J rom. It will be competing against this run's gameplay. Of course, I'm only using competition in a loose sense of the word; it's more like trying to paint a better picture than trying to beat someone in a footrace. 3. No one here considers this run an invitation for all runs to be done on whichever rom you choose. It states right in the rules that English is preferable and that the previously preferred rom should always be used unless there is a good reason to switch. Doing the run on the J version just so your final time appears lower is exactly the kind of pride-based motive that this site frowns upon. I'm sure I wouldn't be the only person to vote no on such a run. 4. Even if you decided to make your own site just so you could do your run on the J version, this site will go on. Someone else will pick up the Ocarina of Time run because it's just too popular of a game with too much potential to just have a run sit there with clear improvements. That being said, everyone here still wants a run from Grunz, Swordless, AKA, and Bloobliebla, much moreso than this run, but that run doesn't exist yet. The fact is that this run much better represents the goals of this site than our currently published run. When the new run comes this summer, that will be a flagship run for the site and likely starred, but there's no real reason not to give the site's visitors the best the game has to offer in the meantime.

You trick the B button into thinking it's a C-Button and then you trick the bottle into putting the fish not into the items subscreen, but to where your amulets, songs and quivers are. There, the fish magically turns into game breaking stuff.

Thank you for the thoughtful comments in your judging statement, mmbossman. I also think that after a run of better quality than Guanobowl's is published, and made more widely known to English-speaking audiences (i.e. a major site other than nicovideo), people will be a little more patient for a run that is super-optimized, implements all kinds of new tricks, and blows our socks off. I would still love to see such a run, and I really appreciate all the work that you guys do (such as MrGrunz, Bloobiebla, Mitjitsu, Swordless Link, and anyone else that I'm forgetting). Majora's Mask is also a highly anticipated run, and will probably be more enjoyable as well even with all the sequence breaking. Heck, while we're on the topic of runs that have had big improvements which weren't submitted due to being improvable, what other runs can we get partial improvements to? Rockin Kats, for instance?

I digg the drama.

Since people are bound to keep asking, mzxrules explains: Bottle Adventure! The best way i can think to do this is to break down the multitude of glitches in order that they are done in the TAS. Stealing the Rod is a simple trick. Basically you just have to be a couple pixels above the ground when casting the fishing rod so that when Link lands, he becomes "unlocked". Outside the pond, the fishing rod is a bit strange. For whatever reason, diving underwater and surfacing turns it into a Deku Stick. Ocarina Items is a glitch that allows you to play the ocarina with most items. If the item cannot be withdrawn, it instead creates a bottle over the item. This trick is done by getting a filled bottle in hand, jumping into the air, and pressing the bottle C-Item and the item you want to play Ocarina/Bottle Dupe with. By having a Deku Stick on B, but no sticks in stock, we can overwrite this Deku Stick with a bottle. Reverse Bottle Adventure is the act of "hacking" your own inventory. Whenever Adult Link's B button is changed into one of the "bottle" items (including the time you overwrite the deku stick with Ocarina Items), it also writes the bottle's item value to another part of the ram. The address picked is based on Adult Link's C-Right Item value. Getting the Broken Goron's Knife through the trade sequence is the key to obtaining the Spirit and Shadow Medallions. Bottle Adventure is really the act of getting a non-sword, non-bottle item on Adult Link's B (Although most would consider putting a Bottle on B with Ocarina Items being part of Bottle Adventure, it makes explaining this more confusing). This is done by going back in time with a Bottle on B, and then going forward in time. Adult Link's B button item value is determined by the value of an address in memory, and in turn the specific memory address is determined by the item on Young Link's C button. With this trick we can get up to 128 different "items" on B. This trick actually isn't used in the TAS however.

An addendum to mzxrules' post above, here's a list answering almost any possible questions: - After leaving the Kokiri Forest shop, the TAS jumpslashes into the water and flies backwards. >>> There are four ways to escape Kokiri Forest before completing the Deku Tree. This method is called “Water Extended Super Slide” (or Infinite Super Slide, whichever you prefer). By entering and exiting the water quickly while holding the control stick a specific direction, you can move like this. This gives enough speed to be able to clip the Kokiri blocking your way out of the forest. >>> This method of escape is considered unoptimal for a TAS because it activates the “get Fairy Ocarina” cutscene. This is unnecessary and only wastes time, as through another glitch known as Ocarina Items you can play an Ocarina even though you have none. - After going into Hyrule Field for the first time, the TAS switches between the Sword and the Deku Stick really fast. >>> Switching between a Sword and the Deku Stick every other frame skips your encounter with Kaepora Gaebora, an owl who talks to you and wastes time. - After skipping the owl, the TAS flies backwards. >>> This is a Super Slide. By rolling into something you can grab and having something push you away from it, you’ll fly straight backwards as long as you hold the R button. >>> >>> Later on in the run, the TAS is able to move in different directions after a Super Slide. This is an extension of the Super Slide called the Extended Super Slide (or, again, Infinite Super Slide). The same specific direction on the control stick is held to achieve this as it was during a Water Extended Super Slide. - In the Fishing Pond, the TAS receives the Golden Scale as a child. >>> By holding the Z button as you come out of the water and holding until you talk to the fisherman, he’ll give you the Golden Scale for some reason. - The purpose of the trip to King Zora in Zora's Domain is only to get Ruto’s Letter out of the Bottle so that you can use it. This could be considered unoptimal because you can get a Bottle another way. - Before taking the owl to the entrance to Hyrule Castle Town Market, TAS messes around. >>> This is to wait until the sun rises and the bridge to the market is down. - Going out of bounds in the Temple of Time is used to skip getting all three Spiritual Stones. - Once you become an adult and talk to Sheik, the TAS goes out of bounds and dies. >>> After the adult sequence, you’re stuck in that room because the Door of Time blocks your way out (you never opened it). You need to get out of bounds by clipping into a pillar and die, save, not continue, then resume your save. You’ll appear in the Temple of Time normally and be able to continue. - Why is there a Bomb icon on C-Down? He never picked it up…? >>> This is the way the game was developed. As Adult Link cannot use some of Child Link items, the developers added a default C-button setup (including Bombs on C-Down) for Adult Link. - The TAS gets the Pocket Egg before going to the Graveyard to give it time to hatch (it needs one full day). - The TAS goes into the Graveyard and races Dampe for the Hookshot. >>> This is considered unoptimal because the newest route skips the Hookshot. The Hookshot was only necessary in two places: >>> >>> Getting into the Fishing Pond. This is skipped by obtaining a Magic Bean through another sequence break, planting it, and riding the Magic Leaf as an adult to the Fishing Pond. >>> >>> Crossing the broken bridge in Gerudo Valley. This is skipped by another glitch which would allow you to cross the bridge. - After getting the Hookshot, the TAS dies. >>> After the Hookshot room, the player needs to play the Song of Time to progress, which was never obtained. Therefore, the player needs to get either crushed by the door or hop back into the Hookshot room once it closes to get back to the beginning of the race. - The TAS pulls out the Ocarina of Time despite never obtaining it…? >>> Adult Link will always pull out the Ocarina of Time, even if he has the Fairy Ocarina instead. - The TAS goes into the Fishing Pond and out again after stealing the fisherman’s hat! >>> Stealing the fisherman's hat was not necessary; it was only done for entertainment (no time was lost doing so, however). This was part of a glitch called "Steal the Fishing Rod". By diving in shallow water and casting the rod immediately after surfacing (the TAS directs the cast towards the hat so he can steal that too), you can take the Fishing Rod out of the Fishing Pond (usually the fisherman stops you from doing so). By getting the Fishing Rod outside, you can get a Deku Stick on B, which allows you to get a Bottle on B. >>> The Fishing Rod stays on B until he gets to Kakariko Village. - The TAS pauses and unpauses, then releases bugs in a Bottle multiple times. What’s with this? >>> The pause and unpause turns the Fishing Rod into a Deku Stick >>> The “error” sound played is the process of putting a Bottle on B; you get a Bottle in your hands, hit the C-button the Bottle is on then hit B to turn it into a Bottle, all in mid-air. This begins Reverse Bottle Adventure (RBA). The item on C-Right when the bottle is emptied or items are picked up in the Bottle on B manipulates the memory in various ways. >>> The first bottle dump, with a Bomb on C-Right, activates the slot where Bombs would be in your inventory and bombs will appear if you destroy bushes ("bomb drops"). >>> The second bottle dump, with the white chicken Pocket Cucco on C-Right, gives Link a pair of Gauntlets that allows him to pick up bushes and get items from them. This is necessary because Link currently has no weapon equipped to cut the bushes himself (the Bottle is on B) >>> The third bottle dump, with the blue chicken Cojiro on C-Right, gives Link a Quiver and a Bomb Bag so Link can collect bombs. >>> Later on in the run, the fourth bottle dump, with the Poacher’s Saw on C-Right, gives Link various songs, including the Prelude of Light song, so he can easily go back to the Temple of Time, and Zelda’s Lullaby, so he can summon the Great Fairy and obtain Magic. >>> Later on in the run, the fifth bottle dump, with the Broken Goron’s Sword, gives Link various Medallions, including the Spirit and Shadow Medallions. This allows the cutscenes where Sheik reveals his true form and the rainbow bridge to Ganon's Castle is formed to be triggered. For some reason, the only check to activate these scenes the developers programmed into the game was for the Spirit and Shadow Medallions. - On the bridge where you received the Fairy Ocarina, the TAS sets a Bomb down and does a little jump on the side of the entrance to damage boost onto the sides of the bridge, saving some walking time. - The TAS is able to buy an Arrow because he got the Quiver via RBA earlier. - Directly after this, the TAS jumps directly onto the roof of a building. The fact that this roof is able to be grabbed is just a fault of the game design. - Why does the TAS pull out the Odd Mushroom twice in the Old Hag’s shop? >>> This is also a result of the game itself. The first you pull it out the game will never recognize it. - In the Great Fairy’s Fountain, Link plays the Ocarina with the Hookshot…? >>> This is a glitch called Ocarina Items which would allow the Ocarina to be skipped. To do this glitch, you need to have a bottle in your hands, jump or backflip, and then press the button the bottle was on followed by an item while in mid-air. - Just a note, the TAS uses a slow console-speedrun setup to get across the broken bridge in Gerudo Valley. It shouldn’t be possible to cross without the Longshot (obtained in the Water Temple), but the Hookshot can reached with extreme precision. >>> It is possible to cross the bridge without the Hookshot, as mentioned before, with another glitch. - The TAS skips dispelling each barrier in Ganon's Castle by hovering with bombs? >>> Briefly, a glitch called the Infinite Sword Glitch allows Link to hover by blocking damage from bombs in the air. >>> The way the game is programmed, the trigger to enter the interior of Ganon’s Tower is accessible by just flipping into the side of the wall. - The TAS uses the Master Sword to defeat Ganon even though it was knocked from his hands? >>> The player is able to keep the Master Sword if he performs and sustains a Super Slide during that cutscene. EDIT: Minor spelling fixes.

I've never insulted the japanese guy. I've never said anything against the language just something about the technical quality.

I'm not talking about the language of the ROM. I'm talking about your language. Allow me to quote how you go about wanting this run not to be published for all kinds of reasons, some of them borderline ridiculous, while also sounding like a spoiled child with all the condescension, and one-upping, and regrets for missed street credit. And then you cave in and humbly change your opinion to "well I'm not against it anymore ;)".

I don't want this run to be published here. it is far away from being optimized. even some sidehopping is unoptimized and the most important thing is, those japanese guys just don't want to watch my youtube videos.

of course all those minor improvements only occur to experienced TASers.

if you care, I want this run not to be publish not because of the language, but because of the low level of optimizing. the runner was just not experienced enough to be able to do a fully optimized run.

as I'm an OoT TASer myself, I just can't stand all the sloopiness shown in this TAS. bloobiebla set the level an OoT TAS must have and this TAS is far away from reaching the same level. in my opinion it's just not ok to publish such a run, because people, that are not really experienced with speed running zelda (not actually TASing) will think, that this guy did the most optimized and best TASer ever.

the thing is, the lazy TASer is always the winner.

finally, finally someone that is able to write normally.

the kind of art I'm usually using is, that I try to come up with weird and shocking strategies to clear every section as quickly as possible.

I agree, that publishing this TAS will motivate the great 3 of OoT to make their TAS now

I believe this is enough.

and another thing to note. there is a difference between this run and runs that are submitted, although there are known improvements. the difference is, that the TASer didn't even aim to fully optimize.

Likewise with many other submitted runs. You never know when a player truly tried their best and when they just went with a result that was good enough, unless they specifically state it. It happens all the time. The author is at least being honest here.

and some important quote from me, because people keep telling me, that I was somehow disrespectful against the author

One quote where you let yourself a small amount of praise the author deserved either way just for completing this run does not in any way invalidate all the other quotes where you imply that he's no good, and that you're better, and everything else you can find above in this post. If you understand what I'm talking about, please reconsider your way of expressing opinions. If you don't, I will have to point this out to you every time a situation like this arises. I'm not asking you for an apology, I'm asking you not to be so elitist.

lol Grunz is totally right though.

you could have also quoted, that i said "hmm, I somehow changed my opinion" because you convinced me a while ago already. and seriously, how was I disrespectful? should I say "wow, that TAS is amazingly played, all that sick optimizing shown everywhere" when it just isn't? I totally agree that my first statement wasn't ok, I don't know, why I wrote in such a rude way. but this only appears in the first post. and the lazy TASer thing was also not refered to the author himself. you have to understand the context. I was picking up a normal problem, which is, that it's somehow pointless to try perfecting a run, because nobody will notice it any way. I'm allowed to say, that the run isn't greatly optimized. This is not disrespectfullness. and the great 3 of OoT TASing wasn't even meant to myself. the great 3 are bloobiebla, swordless link and mitjitsu, because you make it sound like I said this to myself ;) but something different, moozooh. the way I was treated was also not ok. I was told racist and stuff like this out of no reason. that should be considered as well and someone said something against my smilies. I'm allowed to use as many smilies as I feel like. there's actually just one in this whole post, so what's the problem about it?

Hm. While not fully optimized, I think the time improvement is high enough regardless. Language is not an issue for me, since I barely read textboxes during TASes anyway. As someone said, subtitles for some parts would be nice, though. Voted yes.

rattleman, excellent explanation. i think that if this gets submitted, the mkv should have subtitles that explain what's going on, because i'm not the only one who's not familiar with all the glitches.

and the lazy TASer thing was also not refered to the author himself. you have to understand the context. I was picking up a normal problem, which is, that it's somehow pointless to try perfecting a run, because nobody will notice it any way.

ordinary people won't notice the difference, but expert players will. so it depends what your target audience is. there's nothing preventing you from being lazy too if you want. i usually don't aim to make perfect TASes because it takes so much time. but OoT is starting to get so maxed that you have to be almost perfect in order to make much difference.

and someone said something against my smilies. I'm allowed to use as many smilies as I feel like. there's actually just one in this whole post, so what's the problem about it?

you use a ;) smiley in almost all of your posts. not that it matters though ;) btw, i think it's funny that you have a happy smiley face as your avatar when you say angry things like "I clearly, fucking CLEARLY said, that the language doesn't play a rule for me." it just looks so funny ;)

What about if I beat this run in real-time? Would TASvideos accept it?

I sincerely doubt you would ever beat this run in real-time. I just finished watching this run (thanks for the encode) and I enjoyed it. Obviously voted yes. Congratulations abeshi to your first submitted and accepted run. Cheers! Also, very delighted to see JXQ here again.

Response to MrGrunz taken to PM.

Whoah, I stopped reading this thread a couple of pages ago and judging by the length of posts here I am now permanently scared of continuing to do so. BUT wanted to vocally express my approval of publication! I am surprised!

Good job abeshi, for having the courage to submit a OoT run to this site, and know that it has some flaws. 200K rerecords is a lot of effort and I am looking forward to watching this run, even if it is a little unoptimized.