The Legend of Zelda "Swordless" (1st Quest)

  • aims for fastest time
  • takes damage to save time
  • abuses programming errors
  • manipulates luck
  • uses a game restart sequence
  • no deaths
  • no predefined saves
  • genre: adventure
  • uses emulator fceu 0.98.28
This run is my first submission to TASvideos and I believe the first of its kind.
This is one of my favorite all-time NES games. If you are unfamiliar with this game you can refer to Baxter and Morrison's 2nd quest movie submission notes for a brief recap of the plot here: #2091: Baxter & Morrison's NES The Legend of Zelda "2nd quest" in 24:59.83
You can also find a highly in-depth description of enemy drops, enemy movement, gameplay techniques, link's movement, and a description of the screen scroll glitch in those same submission notes.
This is technically not a "swordless" run for the obvious reason that you have to collect one of the three swords in order to hit Ganon and complete the game. There has been lots of discussion in the forums as to what the best way to end a run of this type would be. To my knowledge the point of this site is for people to show off game "completion" in the least amount of frames. Without collecting a sword, game completion is not possible. So instead of a freezing glitch, dying on Ganon, or stopping the movie when you enter Ganon's room, I chose to collect the sword and kill Ganon. Note that I only get the sword after acquiring all 8 peices of the triforce, and do not use it until the fight with Ganon.

A Few Quirks:

There are a few things I'd like to point out about my route, the screen scroll glitch, and enemy manipulations/drops.

Route:

First off, I was asked in the forums after I posted my WIP about why I use the gambling game more than the published 1st quest any %. In that run they only use the gambling game twice and get the rest of their rupees from enemy drops and a 100 rupee secret to everyone room on the way to level 8.
When I started attempting this run I noticed that if you get the candle on the way to level 4, when you pick up the ladder there and reset, the game for some unknown reason sets your item to the candle on restart. This of course is suboptimal since you don't need the candle until the 100 rupee secret room (if you plan on getting this) or level 8, and it forces you to access the menu to switch back to the bombs. After some testing I found that it is slightly faster to get the candle later (skipping the 100 rupees) since there's a candle room on the way to level 8. So basically you're trading 2 gamble screens for 1 menu screen and the 100 rupee secret, also allowing you to screen scroll glitch past the first candle room and the rupee secret. Furthermore, getting the candle near level 8 allows you to move up/right and down/left respectively, allowing a few frames to be saved by zig-zagging.
You may also wonder why I dont ever use the whistle to warp to level 3 to go to levels 4 and 7, and to level 1 when going to level 9. If going to level 7 before completing level 4 it is in fact faster to use the whistle, but with the screen scroll glitch it makes it optimal to do level 4 first and then over to level 7 by use of the glitch. Additionally I have to reset to get the wooden sword anyway, so I dont have to worry about walking 1 screen away from level 7 to use the whistle.
As for not using the whistle to go to level 1 after I pick up the wooden sword. In the any% they whistle from level 6 to 1, but I obviously have a different route and using the whistle after getting the wooden sword is much slower than just screen scroll glitch walking up past level 1.

Screen Scroll Glitch:

There are some places in the overworld where I do the glitch and I move in a seemingly suboptimal way. This only happens when moving north/south through the black portion at the top of the screen. For some reason if there's bushes or rocks at the top of the screen they are offset in some places by about a block worth of movement. For example, while on the way to get the 30 rupees in the beginning of the run, when screen scrolling at the first forest screen after the beach area, it looks like you may be able to hug the bushes on the right and perform the glitch there. This is not so because the bushes are offset slightly. This is the reason you see me enter the bottom of the screen in the middle, come out of the top half a block to the left, and have to go back to the right before i reenter from the top and move on. This happens a few times during the run and may look a bit strange.

Enemy Drops:

Some dungeon rooms again may seem suboptimal, and I'm sure a few frames could probably be saved here and there (although this would ultimately change the entire run from there on out which may or may not be desireable). You may see me kill some enemies first when it looked like i could have hit/killed more with the same bomb. Most of the time this is because i need to get a certain drop from a certain enemy and if I were to kill any other enemies first it would change the value of $052A thus changing the type of drop. An example of this would be in level 7 when entering the locked door room with 3 bats and 3 blue boomerang baddies, I drop 2 consecutive bombs to kill 2 of the 3 blue boomerangers where i could have killed some bats as well or even all 6 enemies with the 2 bombs. This is misleading because killing any of the bats before i killed the boomerangers would not have allowed me to get a bomb drop there. I tried to prevent this from happening as much as possible but unfortunately it does a few times.

Enemy Manipulations:

Since this is a swordless run it would seem unfair to compare dungeon room completion times to the any% runs. There is no sword present which makes it considerably harder to complete rooms in as timely a fashion (especially blue darknut rooms), because without the sword you can not do things like lay a bomb/swing your sword at the same time (possibly setting up enemies in a group) and swing your sword when the bomb explodes hitting them with both and doing extra damage (cutting down on enemy cooldown and bomb usage).

The Route:

As you can imagine the route plan for a swordless run is drastically different from an any% since you can only hit the dragon bosses of level 4 and 8 with the wand, and to get that you must get the ladder from level 4. With that in mind I believe that the route is pretty much fully optomized.
  • get 30 rupees from the friendly enemy
  • reset
  • get bombs
  • reset
  • use left over rupees for gambling
  • level 3 triforce
  • raft
  • save and continue
  • ladder
  • save and continue
  • bow
  • level 1 triforce
  • wand
  • level 6 triforce
  • reset
  • candle on the way to level 8
  • level 8 triforce
  • level 2 triforce
  • meat
  • whistle
  • level 5 triforce
  • reset
  • level 4 triforce
  • level 7 triforce
  • reset
  • wooden sword
  • reset
  • silver arrows
  • Ganon/Zelda

Credits:

I would like to thank Phil, Baxter, and Morrison for their 1st and 2nd quest any% runs and submission texts. Without these this run would never have been possible. And also Baxter again for his feedback and encouragement in pm's and the forums early on. A special thanks goes out to LordTom for responding to my posts recently. It seemed like people had lost interest in this run considering noone really responded to my posted WIP and additional comments. Your responses and encouragement were very timely, without which i may have put off finishing this run for awhile or possibly indefinately. I hope everyone enjoys the run whether published or not. Its been a long time coming!

adelikat: Claimined for judging. I think this submission has implications for the site as a whole so I will handle it. Expect a verdict in the upcoming days.

adelikat: Accepting for publication. Verdict

Aktan: Processing as "Swordless Challenge"

FractalFusion: Replaced movie to change rerecord count to 12000, which is closer to the number of actual rerecords done.

adelikat: Replace submission file with .fm2 file


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Lord Tom wrote:
The joke's already been made, so that would be Pointless, Boy.
Yeah but I was being serious! Link That Only Uses Sword When Necessary epitomizes me and everything that I sit for.
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We just need a way to glitch the game or Ganon and skip the boss fight. Problem solved. Too bad one of the first NES games to use savefiles can't be manipulated (à la Chrono Trigger's any glitched%). Anyway, this is getting kind of silly. I don't see any new arguments coming forth. Let's sit patiently and wait for the judges to do their thing.
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I Only Sit Patiently When Necessary
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Your posts are getting pointless, and that makes me sad :(
adelikat wrote:
I very much agree with this post.
Bobmario511 wrote:
Forget party hats, Christmas tree hats all the way man.
Dwedit
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Really great stuff here. I love how you hit the old man to get a damage boost.
adelikat
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This submission turned out to be a bit complicated of an issue but let's break down some of the considerations at play Is this movie on par with other movies of this game? Yes Does this movie entertain the audience? Yes Can this movie potentially obsolete existing movies for this game? Nope. It is not comparable nor faster than the existing 2 publications thus can not obsolete Is this movie significantly different from existing movies of the game to be worthy of a new category for this game? Significantly different route, however that is a somewhat marginal reason to me. A different route caused by new goals is just a consequence, not the sole justification for those goals. However, it shows some surprising gameplay having to rely on other weapons than the sword. I look at it as a kind of mutated "low%" concept. As such I can't think of a better goal choice for this game for a minimalist type movie. It doesn't just meet the low% criteria in concept but also in effect. The point of a low% run is the excitement drawn from a character having few resources and those seemingly impossible odds of survival. Not having the basic sword helps achieve this effect. Overall, it holds its own as a natural addition to the LoZ family of TASes. That leaves the more difficult issues. #1 Is this an "arbitrary" goal choice? It is a pretty straightforward plan: don't get the sword. In addition, many LoZ players have realized this might be possible and attempted it. As a realtime challenge it is both fun and rewarding. That brings up another issue. On this site we've strived to have movies that are friendly to the casual user and have avoided "niche" runs with goal choices that are generally desired only by the "experts" of the game. I think this goal is immediately easy to understand by the general audience and it is rather easy to see he is following his goals (no sword in the A Box, for instance). I think while it might be a "niche" goal, it is an easy one that viewers have not had a hard time following. However, this goal choice is one that can not be completed. Ganon must be killed by a sword. Is the precedent setting issue if accepted? Have we never had a goal choice that can't result in a game completion without breaking? Arguably we have. We've had pacifist movies that kill enemies. It isn't a problem because it is generally understood that pacifist means "no killing except when absolutely necessary". We've also had "100% kills" movies that fail to kill some enemies. Again it was generally understood that it means "kill as many enemies as possible. This may have been potentially misleading and later versions were labeled as "maximum kills" which is a much more precise goal description. I think we have the same potential for confusion here. Swordless is going to be generally understood as "not obtaining a sword" as opposed to "not obtaining a sword until Ganon's room where he cant be killed and then completing the swordless requirement". I think the movies cited are enough to justify a goal choice of this nature. I don't think the potential misleadingness of the title should warrant rejection of the category. Instead it our responsibility to label and describe this movie properly to avoid the confusion. The only remaining issue is how the author chose the "post completion" part of the movie. The swordless goal ended at Ganon. I think all the possibilities argued have their pros and cons, enough so that no one is the obvious choice. In the end, the choice becomes style/opinion based. I don't think the choice should have an effect on the verdict here. My verdict then is to accept this movie for publication. However, I am open to possible better suggestions for the category name other than "Swordless". Regardless of category, it should be clearly labeled in descriptions that the goal is to get to ganon's room without the use of the sword. It should also be described why the author obtains the sword along the way to Ganon's room. I think if labeled & described well, the confusion can be minimized.
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
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Whatever this guy said. ^
mklip2001
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Thank you for the detailed verdict! As for the title, "Swordless", while slightly inaccurate, is still the historical name for this kind of challenge. It's still appropriate, and it's no more misleading than "100% kills" in the Gradius movie. If you really want to call it low%, I guess you can, because I do believe every item type picked up is absolutely required (with the exception of the wand replacing the sword at the Gleeock fights). I am also in favor of how the sword was obtained in this run and why. I like to think of Link as being an absent-minded hero, leaving to fight the 8 dungeon bosses but forgetting his sword at home. Even when he does finally get the sword, it's as if he forgets he has it until he is faced with the big blue monstrosity that is Ganon.
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically. Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.) Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html) Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature! Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
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Oh nice! I'm happy to see an accept and excited to have a run posted on tasvideos! From the looks of your explanation you had a lot to think about. :)
MarbleousDave
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This would probably be called a "minimalist" run.
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"minimum sword use" would be accurate, at least.
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I thought of the term "swordless challenge". Technically, going swordless by itself is a challenge, and would imply the word 'challenge' anyway, but explicitly inserting the word 'challenge' should hopefully imply that the run follows the nature of the challenge as what is commonly known, and not that the run is exclusively swordless and we found a way to win without a sword. Or I could be completely wrong about the term and I ended up producing what is effectively gibberish. I am one of the people who preferred ending the game by glitch, but I can see why the normal game ending is a desired stopping point. In any case, I really should try to watch this run at some point...
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FatRatKnight wrote:
I thought of the term "swordless challenge". Technically, going swordless by itself is a challenge, and would imply the word 'challenge' anyway, but explicitly inserting the word 'challenge' should hopefully imply that the run follows the nature of the challenge as what is commonly known, and not that the run is exclusively swordless and we found a way to win without a sword.
I agree with this, and very well put. I think that adding "challenge" to the title would be helpful along with something in the description to reiterate the point.
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Just watched the encode. Loved the run all around, and for the record, I think that "minimal sword," or something similar is the best description. Yes vote from me.
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This run is a concept demostration that is almost swordless.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days <adelikat> no doubt <adelikat> klmz, they still do
adelikat
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FatRatKnight wrote:
swordless challenge
We have a winner.
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In addition to mentioning why the sword was collected, etc. in the description, maybe we can add subtitles at that point of the movie: "It is impossible to hit Ganon with anything but the sword. It is collected at this point to save time but isn't used until Ganon's room..." something along those lines. Basically this is for the casual viewer who may not read the description here or gets the video online elsewhere where the description may not be included.
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I'd just call it "Swordless*" and put "*Except Ganon." somewhere in the description.
While "CCC" may be a common unassisted playing goal, it fails to be an impressive TAS goal. If anything, because the goal itself is doable unassisted.
Surprisingly not unlike almost every other goal here! hurrrrr At least this run is getting published, though I still don't see how this can be such a "major decision" that requires "lots of thought".
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Because we don't still live in the Golden Age where everyone thought exactly like you, XKeeper!
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
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Xkeeper wrote:
I still don't see how this can be such a "major decision" that requires "lots of thought".
Part of it is fear of what precedent this might set for the site; most of it is just the natural human tendency to debate minutia ad nauseum. Discussions, if nothing else, are an entertaining distraction from life itself, and I'm pretty sure we're all on this site because we're seeking temporary relief from our mundane day-to-day goings-on. Anyway, I'm glad this is getting published. I understand the merits of the debate, but I think there's a general consensus that running a Zelda game without a sword creates a new and interesting category, like an FPS that uses no guns or the small-only Mario run. I also think it'd be entertaining to watch other Zelda games attempt no-sword runs, though none may be quite as different as this.
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Hmm, I just noticed that the rerecord count is totally screwed. It should really be around 10-12k I think, but I don't know jack about hex-editing so I cant change it.
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skater43 wrote:
In addition to mentioning why the sword was collected, etc. in the description, maybe we can add subtitles at that point of the movie: "It is impossible to hit Ganon with anything but the sword. It is collected at this point to save time but isn't used until Ganon's room..." something along those lines. Basically this is for the casual viewer who may not read the description here or gets the video online elsewhere where the description may not be included.
That suggestion gets my vote.
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jprofit22 wrote:
Hmm, I just noticed that the rerecord count is totally screwed. It should really be around 10-12k I think, but I don't know jack about hex-editing so I cant change it.
fm2 is text readable, you can modify it VERY easily! Edit: I just noticed the submission is fcm. You should convert it to fm2, edit it, and then ask someone like adelikat to change the submission input to it.
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Aktan wrote:
jprofit22 wrote:
You should convert it to fm2, edit it, and then ask someone like adelikat to change the submission input to it.
Except that Zelda 1 is one of those stubborn games that doesn't like it when you try to convert to fm2, desyncing due to timing differences caused by taking longer to read the sram or something along those lines...I don't remember what the specifics are, but anyway, the movie doesn't act right. :p
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4matsy wrote:
Except that Zelda 1 is one of those stubborn games that doesn't like it when you try to convert to fm2, desyncing due to timing differences caused by taking longer to read the sram or something along those lines...I don't remember what the specifics are, but anyway, the movie doesn't act right. :p
Weird, it worked for me. That's how I made the encode, from a converted fm2.