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Emulator: Snes9x v1.43

Details

  • Aims for fastest time
  • Abuses programming errors in the game
  • Manipulates luck
  • Genre: RPG

About the game


About the glitch


Movie of my run
Reference
  • Romancing SaGa 2 (J) (V1.0) TAS (Using glitches) → [|NicoVideo](Account necessary)

I hope you enjoy my run.

Mukki: I'll look into this. Due to the lack of information provided, and the apparent complexity of the game, this may take a little longer to verify. If the author, or anyone, would like to comment or provide more information on the glitches used it would be appreciated. Otherwise, I shall have to do the best with what I have.
Mukki: Accepting for publication. Full opinion...
Velitha: Processing......


TASVideoAgent
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This topic is for the purpose of discussing #2838: knbnitkr's SNES Romancing SaGa 2 in 1:08:30.85
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This is already Recorded a year ago Unable to improve it? Wait a long time But I vote Yes
Wren
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Is it just me or is this absolutely one of the most boring runs ever created? Voting Meh.
<i>A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day.</i>
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This one has been sitting for quite some time so I would like to see it judged soon. Feedback on this has been scarce. One of the few comments in the thread suggests that this is one of the most boring runs ever created. Not a glowing review, yet 91% of you have voted yes! If you are one of the people that voted yes can you please make a post to explain why you voted this way, or if you do not want to post publicly you can PM me instead. Also, knbnitkr, if you are reading this can you please finish your submission text? Especially information about the glitches used. Whatever information you can provide would be great.
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Mukki wrote:
This one has been sitting for quite some time so I would like to see it judged soon. Feedback on this has been scarce. One of the few comments in the thread suggests that this is one of the most boring runs ever created. Not a glowing review, yet 91% of you have voted yes! If you are one of the people that voted yes can you please make a post to explain why you voted this way, or if you do not want to post publicly you can PM me instead. Also, knbnitkr, if you are reading this can you please finish your submission text? Especially information about the glitches used. Whatever information you can provide would be great.
I’m one of the people voted yes. Because of the number of viewer here, I thought it’s unnecessary to explain. Many other TASes are mirror-uploaded on the site, but the most of them have fewer viewers. Also I was lazy to post comment because English is not my mother tongue. This game was released only in Japan, so the number of comments is small. But it was presented by square, which was famous for Final Fantasy series. In fact this game is very popular in Japan. RS(Romancing Saga) series is famous for its free scenario system. In these games you can go everywhere you like, make anyone take part in the party. It’s very difficult to decide route and strategy. I think this is one of the most difficult games for TASing. Besides that, RS2 is the most challenging and interesting game. The game system is so complicated that I can’t explain enough. When you touch an enemy, a battle takes place. It’s very difficult to avoid encounter. I even laughed seeing the character running through a floor. Plus luck manipulation, these are possible on TAS. They can’t be done on normal play. So the technical quality is enough. I personally enjoyed enough. Maybe I should make subtitles but my English is poor and I’m busy.
Joined: 7/10/2008
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Thanks for the encode, Velitha. My vote would be meh to no on this one. I am abstaining from voting, however, because I think my vote is heavily biased by not being familiar with the game. About half of the movie is spent sitting in one spot repeatedly running from enemies (which is boring as all get out), but due to my lack of knowledge of the game/ability to read Japanese, I can't understand why the author did that (i.e. you have to fight x number of battles to move on and ruinning is the fastest way to end the battle, author is setting up a glitch, running away raises your agility skill or something so the bosses later can be defeated faster).
NitroGenesis
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I found this boring and stale. It seemed to just be running away every couple of seconds, and the fact it was Japanese didn't help matters. Thanks for encoding Velitha.
YoungJ1997lol wrote:
Normally i would say Yes, but thennI thought "its not the same hack" so ill stick with meh.
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I think that this deserves to be published. This run reminds me of all the other RPG TASes that we have, plus more with these glitches. It stands out with all the other interesting fetures that the game already brings with. I think that this run is an acceptional lenth for this game and it doesnt seem like it drags on. In short, I vote Yes. However, I'd recommend that you make translated subtitles for this movie like you did for Lagrange Point. Also, Velitha...You put the wrong captions. This isnt Mike Tyson's Punchout. :P
NitroGenesis
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Sonikkustar wrote:
Also, Velitha...You put the wrong captions. This isnt Mike Tyson's Punchout. :P
Phil secretly made this movie. knbinitkr is his double. XD
YoungJ1997lol wrote:
Normally i would say Yes, but thennI thought "its not the same hack" so ill stick with meh.
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After spending a few days playing through this game, watching the run and reading various sources I've decided to accept this submission. Some of you disliked this run so I'll explain why I am accepting it. I will also try and explain some of the important aspects of this run (as best I can, in spite of being unable to read Japanese). It is generally understood that TASes of RPGs are given some leniency in regards to their entertainment requirement. I agree with this as RPG runs tend not to have inherent qualities that make them entertaining to the lay viewer (Chrono Trigger being a notable exception). They can have many qualities that make them incredibly entertaining to those familiar with them, but some are still uninteresting tool-assisted. Getting the balance right here is important. RPGs are not completely exempt from entertainment and we must strive to publish material that maintains our high standards. With this in mind I am generally looking for an RPG run to represent three qualities to some degree: 1) Most importantly, an RPG run should demonstrate proficiency with skills common to good RPG runs i.e. the author should have to deal with luck manipulation and the author should have put considerable effort into battle strategy and route planning. This should be fulfilled in a comparatively surprising/entertaining way. 2) The game itself should not be manifestly unsuitable for TASing i.e. the visuals should not be ugly, the music should not be irritating, and the game must not be of unreasonable length. 3) Finally, there should be enthusiasm about the run and there should be many viewers that can appreciate the submission. Otherwise, there would be little point in granting the leniency to the run in the first place. This run scores big points on 1). The game seems tailored to make speedrunning difficult. The author runs away from many battles, which confused some of you. When you run from a battle in this game you keep the money that you would have won from the battle, but don't get the experience points. Furthermore, the enemies level up depending on how many battles you have fought, which means that if you run from a battle the enemies are levelling up faster than the player. The author runs a lot but is able to get the balance right and the game is still beatable. This was interesting to watch. Also, when you run outside of battles the game hides the enemies from you in an attempt to cause more encounters and ultimately slow you down. This was another interesting quirk that the author dealt with well. There was also some impressive glitches towards the end. The game also has a completely non-linear storyline and you can beat the seven heroes in any order that you wish, which provided interesting route possibilities. On point 2) this was pretty standard. The music was good, visuals acceptable and the run's length was quite short comparative to other SNES RPGs. On point 3) this run is relatively unknown to Western gamers, but it is my understanding that this game is big in Japan and our large, but quiet, Japanese contingent seem to be quite enthusiastic about this one. For these reasons, I believe that this submission makes the grade.
Joined: 7/10/2008
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Mukki wrote:
This run scores big points on 1). The game seems tailored to make speedrunning difficult. The author runs away from many battles, which confused some of you. When you run from a battle in this game you keep the money that you would have won from the battle, but don't get the experience points. Furthermore, the enemies level up depending on how many battles you have fought, which means that if you run from a battle the enemies are levelling up faster than the player. The author runs a lot but is able to get the balance right and the game is still beatable. This was interesting to watch. Also, when you run outside of battles the game hides the enemies from you in an attempt to cause more encounters and ultimately slow you down. This was another interesting quirk that the author dealt with well. There was also some impressive glitches towards the end. The game also has a completely non-linear storyline and you can beat the seven heroes in any order that you wish, which provided interesting route possibilities.
Thanks for clarifying the running stuff. Still not sure I'd vote for this run, but at least I appreciate it a little more.
Post subject: More delays ftl :(
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NitroGenesis wrote:
Sonikkustar wrote:
Also, Velitha...You put the wrong captions. This isnt Mike Tyson's Punchout. :P
Phil secretly made this movie. knbinitkr is his double. XD
Ugh, notepad++ refused to save my subs :/ Redumping, re-encodeing, hunting for screenshot, and I'll publish it Edit: Got a bad dump and x264 crashes at the end, I'm gonna have to wait about 2 more days for a good encode (unless somebody else wants to handle this, just don't use my encode due to wrong subtitles)
Post subject: Movie published
TASVideoAgent
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This movie has been published. The posts before this message apply to the submission, and posts after this message apply to the published movie. ---- [1646] SNES Romancing SaGa 2 by knbnitkr in 1:08:30.85
Joined: 12/24/2007
Posts: 4
I really wish someone would elaborate on the glitch towards the end. It seems to visibly look glitchy around 1:06:38 (The grass on the right shifts positions or something really fast) and eventually leads to what looks like a debug menu.. Reminds me of the Earthbound glitch run where the TASer glitches into a debug menu and goes to the last scene that can trigger the credits.
Post subject: Author's Notes
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Hello. I am the author who originally submitted this TAS under the username knbnitkr. Unfortunately, this submission was made a long time ago, and I am no longer able to log in to my original TASVideos account. The email address associated with that account is also no longer available, so recovering it appears to be difficult. I have therefore created a new account to post this comment. I apologize for leaving this submission without detailed author notes for such a long time. The original submission did not adequately explain the route, the game mechanics involved, or the principles behind the glitches used in the run. Below, I would like to provide a detailed explanation of this TAS, including its generation routing, Event Point and battle-count management, technique and equipment choices, the conditions required for the Map Change Glitch, and the stack overflow and memory corruption that make the glitch possible.
Joined: 12/21/2009
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Author's Notes Run overview This TAS completes Romancing SaGa 2 in approximately 68 minutes by using the Map Change Glitch to bypass most of the game's normal progression and reach the final area much earlier than intended. The visible execution of the glitch occurs near the end of the run, but preparing it accounts for most of the movie. The route must establish three specific conditions:
  • The Sunken Ship event must be active.
  • The Emperor must possess the Mermaid Potion.
  • Travel between Melu and South Longit must be available.
The Armed Merchant and Garon events are not direct requirements for the glitch. They are used to advance enough generations to activate the Sunken Ship event. Likewise, Leon Bridge is not a direct requirement. Its construction and collapse are necessary steps in the Mermaid Potion event chain. The main challenge of the run is therefore not merely triggering the final glitch. It is satisfying these three conditions as quickly as possible while coordinating Event Points, Generation Battle Count, Elapsed Generation Points, development progress, technique inheritance, money, equipment, and RNG. Important generation mechanics Event Points Completing major events awards Event Points. These points affect whether an event that displays a historical completion message causes a generation change. Generation changes follow what is commonly called the 8-15 Rule. Let:
  • EPold be the Event Point total before completing an event.
  • EPadd be the points awarded by that event.
  • EPnew be the resulting total.
  • BC be the Generation Battle Count.
If EPnew reaches at least 15, a generation change is guaranteed regardless of the battle count. At lower totals, the result also depends on the previous Event Point value and the Generation Battle Count. Event Points are reset after a generation change, so events cannot simply be completed as soon as they become available. Their rewards must be assigned to the generations in which they are most useful. The Jewel Mine is deliberately left unfinished before the 80-year jump. Its four Event Points would be lost during the generation change, so the event is saved as a quick source of points for the following generation. Generation Battle Count The Generation Battle Count determines the number of years advanced when a generation change occurs. Once the count exceeds 48, the number of years advanced is equal to the battle count. At lower values, the game still advances by a minimum of 48 years. The route exploits both behaviors:
  • A count of 176 produces a 176-year jump.
  • A count of 80 produces an 80-year jump.
  • A later generation change uses the 48-year minimum.
This is faster than performing one 144-year jump after Garon. By splitting the required elapsed time into 80 and 48 years, the route can complete the Mermaid Potion and Melu preparations between generation changes while avoiding many additional retreat battles. Elapsed Generation Points Elapsed Generation Points are separate from Event Points. They persist across generation changes and are used to schedule certain time-dependent events. The number gained during a generation change is calculated from the number of years advanced: Elapsed Generation Points gained = round(years advanced / 32) The initial 176-year jump therefore awards six points. This immediately makes both Garon's rebellion and the development of Miramar and Leon Bridge available. After Garon, the route needs five more Elapsed Generation Points to activate the Sunken Ship event. Instead of obtaining all five from a single 144-year jump, it obtains three from an 80-year jump and two from the later minimum 48-year jump. Early preparation The opening section prepares the run's combat and development state. A single intentional battle advances the Development Table by exactly one step. The Nighthead encounter is then manipulated to appear at tech level 28, allowing Strong Strike and Arrow Rain to be sparked before immediately retreating. The Nighthead sequence costs time at the beginning, but the battle count is not wasted. Those battles contribute to the large Generation Battle Count required later. Several weapons are also collected early:
  • the Bastard Sword from a cave;
  • the Claymore from an event;
  • and later the Viking Axe from the Armed Merchant route.
The Canal Fortress is entered through a bug, avoiding its normal approach. Clearing it awards eight Event Points and provides 200,000 crowns, which are later used for development. The first major generation jump The Armed Merchant problem must be resolved early because it is part of the chain leading to Garon and eventually the Sunken Ship event. Before completing it, the run repeatedly enters and retreats from a fixed-position enemy until the Generation Battle Count reaches 176. A fixed enemy is ideal because its position does not drift between attempts. The Armed Merchant event awards five Event Points. The route enters the event with 13 points, raising the total to 18 and guaranteeing a generation change under the 8-15 Rule. The resulting 176-year jump awards six Elapsed Generation Points. This immediately activates Garon's rebellion and makes the Miramar development and Leon Bridge available. Emperor and technique selection After the 176-year jump, Free Fighter James is selected as Emperor. An Armed Merchant cannot be selected at this point, and James has the aptitude required to spark Dimensional Slash. This technique becomes the main method of clearing ordinary battles during the rest of the setup. James first learns Tree Slash, which is used as the prerequisite for Dimensional Slash. Once learned, Dimensional Slash can be inherited through the dojo and used by later Emperors. The party is intentionally kept very small. James is joined only by the Imperial Hunter Shiide, who is taught Shadow Arrow. Avoiding unnecessary recruits saves dialogue, menus, equipment changes, battle commands, and post-battle growth displays. Development, money, and battle-count overlap The Zweihander is ordered during this generation. Repeated battle-and-retreat sequences are used for several purposes at once:
  • advancing the Generation Battle Count;
  • waiting for the Zweihander to finish development;
  • generating enough Imperial income to build Leon Bridge;
  • advancing the bridge-collapse counter;
  • manipulating RNG and enemy formations;
  • and prepaying battles required for the next generation jump.
Leon Bridge costs 1,000,000 crowns. The run deliberately overlaps the necessary income generation with development and generation preparation instead of treating them as separate delays. The completed Zweihander shortens two important battles. It allows the Dragon to be defeated in one turn and reduces the Garon battle from five turns in the previous version of the route to three. Event Point allocation before Garon Before defeating Garon, the route collects only the Event Points needed for the upcoming generation change. The Monster Nest provides points and also creates an opportunity to spark Tree Slash and then Dimensional Slash. The Dragon is fought solely for its Event Point; defeating it is not required to access the region. The Jewel Mine is intentionally skipped at this stage. Its four points are more valuable after the next generation change, when the Event Point total has been reset. Garon and the 80-year jump Before fighting Garon, the Generation Battle Count is stopped at 78 because two forced battles remain. Those battles raise the final count to exactly 80. RNG is also manipulated so that Garon appears with only one accompanying enemy. Shiide kills the additional enemy with Shadow Arrow, while James attacks Garon with the Zweihander because Garon is immune to instant death. Shiide contributes almost no useful damage against Garon, so she defends after eliminating the accompanying enemy. She is also allowed to become incapacitated before the battle ends, avoiding her post-battle stat-growth sequence. A later forced group is eliminated with Dimensional Slash. In that battle, accepting a later action order is faster overall than spending additional time manipulating a first strike. Completing Garon's event awards five Event Points and triggers the prepared 80-year jump. This adds three Elapsed Generation Points. The next Emperor is the Armed Merchant Magellan. He is selected because he begins with an axe equipped and has high speed, making it easier to use Dimensional Slash before enemies can act. Completing the three glitch requirements Activating the Sunken Ship event The Armed Merchant and Garon storylines exist in this route to advance the required number of generations. The 176-year jump initially provides six Elapsed Generation Points. After Garon, the 80-year jump provides three more, and the following minimum 48-year jump provides the final two needed for the Sunken Ship event. The Jewel Mine, which was saved from the previous generation, is used to rebuild the Event Point total efficiently after the 80-year jump. Obtaining the Mermaid Potion The Mermaid Potion route requires the collapse of Leon Bridge. The bridge is constructed earlier and its 15-battle collapse counter is incorporated into the other battle-count requirements. The route also obtains the Sea Breeze Shell and advances the necessary coastal events. Leon Bridge is therefore only an intermediate requirement in the Mermaid Potion branch, not a direct condition of the Map Change Glitch. Opening travel between Melu and South Longit The Melu route is completed so that the player can travel back and forth between Melu and South Longit. This travel connection, rather than the nominal completion of the desert event by itself, is the third direct requirement for the glitch. The Map Change Glitch Once all three direct conditions are satisfied, the run repeatedly travels between Melu and South Longit. This causes a stack overflow. Normally, the stack used during the map-transition and event-processing sequence should be reset after the transition is completed. Under this particular combination of event states, however, the reset does not occur correctly. Each trip adds further data to the existing stack instead of clearing it. As the trips are repeated, the stack continues to grow. Eventually, it exceeds the memory region allocated to it and begins overwriting adjacent memory. The resulting memory corruption causes abnormal game behavior. By controlling the number and timing of the transitions, the run produces a useful corrupted state and reaches an unintended map, allowing the normal scenario progression to be bypassed and the final area to be entered directly. The glitch is therefore not merely a wrong map identifier or an ordinary transition error. It is the visible result of deliberate memory corruption caused by overflowing an event-processing stack that the game fails to reset. RNG manipulation and small optimizations RNG is manipulated throughout the run by varying movement, battle-entry timing, command selection, and command cancellation. Examples include:
  • forcing Nighthead and the required spark opportunities;
  • obtaining one-turn and instant-death outcomes;
  • reducing Garon's accompanying enemies to one;
  • arranging favorable enemy formations;
  • and ensuring Dimensional Slash succeeds whenever it is used.
Menus and dialogue are minimized wherever possible. Party size is kept small, unnecessary equipment changes are avoided, and incapacitated characters are sometimes left down at the end of battle to skip growth messages. Many apparently minor decisions are connected to later route requirements. Battles used to wait for development also fund Leon Bridge and contribute to generation counts. Events are delayed so their points survive into the correct generation. Emperors are selected not for general strength, but for a specific spark aptitude, starting weapon, or speed value. Closing remarks Although the movie ultimately reaches the ending through the Map Change Glitch, the glitch itself is only the final payoff. Most of the optimization lies in creating the state from which the stack overflow can be triggered:
  • activating the Sunken Ship event;
  • obtaining the Mermaid Potion;
  • opening travel between Melu and South Longit;
  • and doing so with the minimum possible combination of battles, events, development cycles, money collection, and generation changes.
The run is best understood as one large routing problem. Romancing SaGa 2's generation system, event structure, combat mechanics, RNG, and memory behavior are all coordinated toward a single objective: corrupting memory in a controlled way and using the result to finish the game far earlier than normally possible.

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