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About

  • Aims for fastest time of two players
  • Genre:Shooting
  • Emulator FBA-rr 003c
  • Manipulate luck
  • 2 players
  • Take damage to save time
Using two players will cost a lot of lags.And I will explain it in my summary.

About the continue

There are the main reasons why I struggle to use continue.
  • 1.Making the jumping after the train smoothly.
  • 2.Making sure that boss battle have enough items because of the power of R is very low.
  • 3.Machine Gun can hit the 5-3 door smoothly and need not wait the door destroyed.
  • 4.continue is not only used in this game,some other games in this web have used continue and borrowing lives.
  • 5.If squarrel king can use continue,I have no doubt to use continue for adding more lives.
  • 6.Continue is availiable in Arcade but just need coins,if coin is the problem,well the PS version can?
  • 7.Continue can make 4 members jump out to show in this run.
  • 8.It can be regarded as a script.
  • 9.It can avoid many lags.
  • 10.It can make the dropping place right to get the Frameshot.
  • 11.Using pistals to hit the train looks stupid.
  • 12.I can only die 2 lives.But dying three lives have more advantage for entertaining this run.And this add the entertainment but other games do not have the chance to use this.If I have 4 lives is it a problem?
  • 13.There are 20 more different experiments that I take no death there,it will make the boss battle looks foolish.Not only because of the longer time.
  • 14.There is a fat getting thin time for player-2.
  • 15.It can also not use continue but waiting for the conuting down for adding new player.
  • 16.The item manipulation for boss battle's experiments:
(1)Using 1 frameshot and the 10 bombs in robot. (2)Using 1 frameshot and 5 bombs in the robot and give up it. (3)Using 1 frameshot and 6 bombs in the robot and give up it. (4)Using 1 frameshot and give up the robot at first and pick two R.That is still not enough to beat the boss.And it is in Level 4. (5)Using 2 frameshots and give up the robot at first.If not use bombs,it is not enough to beat it. (6)Using 2 frameshots and use the robot' 2 bombs. (7)3 bombs. (8)All 4-10 bombs. (9)At first give up the robot and use normal bombs 1 or more. (10)At first give up the robot and only hit it by frameshot,that is also not enough.
So large entertainment killed without what you see the continue used.

The Game

Metal Slug X - Super Vehicle-001 (c) 1999 SNK.
Originally released to improve upon some of the problems the previous Metal Slug game ("Metal Slug 2 - Super Vehicle-001/II") had, most notably its notorious slowdown, this update also implemented several changes to beef up the gameplay, such as new enemies, a different end boss layout and a number of new weapons and secrets. The result is a better game and one of the finest chapters in this series.
- TECHNICAL -
SNK Neo-Geo MVS hardware
Game ID : 0250
Main CPU : 68000 (@ 12 Mhz)
Sound CPU : Z80 (@ 4 Mhz)
Sound Chips : YM2610 (@ 8 Mhz)
Screen orientation : Horizontal
Video resolution : 320 x 224 pixels
Screen refresh : 59.19 Hz
Palette colors : 4096
Players : 2
Control : 8-way joystick
Buttons : 3
=> Character > [A] Shoot, [B] Jump, [C] Grenade
=> Metal Slug> [A] Gun Attack, [B] Jump Board Vehicle, [C] Artillery Attack

Summary

Mission 1

21 frames faster than the precious movie,because shooting together.take a lot of lags.Hitting the boss by tank and camel.Because camel jump fast and has the infinity mechine gun.Tank have great bombs to hit boss for a lot of damage. Camel can using in the Mission 2 at first.Saving time that ignore the L gun.

Mission 2

100 frames more than the precious movie because of there cannot manipulate Shotgun in the 2-2 and the time waiting for the 2p jump for rolling the map takes a lot of time.I can use single player in 1&2 for faster,but I don't do so.The entertainment of two players' run is the key.

Mission 3

800 more faster using dual attack,and manipulate luck in the first boss battle for the Shotgun.

Mission 4

6 frames faster.Lags kill the improvement I think.

Mission 5

400 more frames saved.Dying in the train time.and get two mechine gun and 20 bombs.Using two flame shot to hitting the boss is the key.I have almost 10 experiments in this stage just like do not get the F,Using R,Using the robot hitting,and even more.Finally,I get the best answer.

Mission 6

Manipulate Luck in the last boss's battle,H and L can make the continuous attack.
End this movie.
See you next time and I am in the other plans for MD and Arcade games.
Nach: Judging.
feos: Synched encode is highly needed. Linked what we have for now.
GabCM: Synched encode is here.
DarkKobold: This run has now been sitting on the bench for nearly a month, and Nach has been M.I.A. on this submission, so the senior judge is taking over.
First off, this run is hell to sync, and I have been unable to verify it, despite numerous attempts. This alone would not warrant rejection, as we do have a publishable encode.
Second of all, this run doesn't play at the highest difficulty. Now, this also shouldn't be a sole reason for rejection, especially since it only adds health to bosses. (I actually think the difficulty this is played at should be up for debate.) However, the decision on the previous movie stated that further movies should use the highest difficulty, and I think that should hold weight.
However, the biggest issue is the use of continues, and it is two-fold for this submission.
First off, death would have been sufficient to restore grenades. Continues, on the other hand, gives you a free "Heavy Machine Gun," which is an advantage over the the player's starting stats. So, essentially, you use money to buy a stronger position, which I would equate to the use of a cheat code. In other words, if a code were used to get the heavy machine gun to fall from the sky, it would be viewed in the same light.
Finally, the biggest reason for this rejection is that the use of the continue was poorly done. You died multiple times in the same spot, so that the continue could be used. Now, if continues were going to be used, it would have been trivial to enter the menu, and adjust the number of lives down to one - Or to die in other places, so that grenades could have been reset and used elsewhere. Essentially, it looked like poor planning, and sloppy.
I would reconsider a new submission if the author fixed the use of the continue, and redid the run from there (not fixing the difficulty). As I'm able to get this run to sync up to the end boss, perhaps the first issue would also be taken care of.
DarkKobold: In light of the new rule, this submission was well received, and is being given a second chance. Whether or not it is a rule is no longer a question, but should an exception be made for this movie.
DarkKobold: This movie had a less than positive response. Judging by #3040: X2poet's Arcade Metal Slug: Super Vehicle - 001 in 12:10.23, people prefer a no death run of Metal Slug games.

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Posted: 2/23/2011 4:42 PM
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X2poet
Skilled player (1470)
Joined: 12/30/2007
Posts: 485
Location: Hubei,China
Exotic platforms TAS of 2015 TASer of 2011 Arcade TASer of 2011 Arcade TAS of 2011
Thanks for your support! If there have a glitch like you say,it will be a branch "glitched",that is also acceptable. Just like SFC Contra.
Do the work.
Posted: 2/23/2011 4:52 PM
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Aktan
Publisher
Joined: 4/23/2009
Posts: 1283
So after talking to my cousin who is a game designer, I found some of his points interesting: cousin: "Well, is it a problem if you have 40? It defeats the point of having lives in the first place. The point which I thought was to use them wisely where it gives the maximum benefit, not to use them everywhere possible just because you can always get more on a whim by abusing the most banal and frowned upon way to gain them. " cousin: this statement looks a bit silly to me cousin: it seemed like one of the core elements of a tas is to ignore what any game element may have been designed to do cousin: "the reason the designer put a wall there is for the player to move around it... not to glitch through it" cousin: who cares what the designers intended when they added lives - i can attest that the number of lives you get is arbitrary until you take into account the money that players feed into the machine cousin: " In my opinion, making game easier by tapping into an infinite resource left open by developers for a very particular reason of aiding the incapable goes against the very notion of superplay, whether it's done for speed, for score, or for being awesome. " cousin: could this not be said of having infinite primary gun ammo in megaman? cousin: again i fall back to "who cares what the designers may or may not have intended?"
Posted: 2/23/2011 4:54 PM
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moozooh
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5770
Location: Away
Aktan wrote:
moozooh: A question for you. Let's say in this game, using a continue in level 1 can warp you to the end level. Obviously this would be a "glitched" category, but would you then say the use of a continue is acceptable?
I believe things like this warrant a per-case evaluation. From ideological standpoint, triggering a gameover and using continue in stage 1 is the only way of accessing a glitch, and it is used precisely and exclusively for the purpose of accessing the glitch, I, personally, deem that fair use. Triggering a gameover and using a continue for the sole purpose of tapping an infinite resource conveniently and transparently provided by developer, I don't deem fair use.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 2/23/2011 4:58 PM
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X2poet
Skilled player (1470)
Joined: 12/30/2007
Posts: 485
Location: Hubei,China
Exotic platforms TAS of 2015 TASer of 2011 Arcade TASer of 2011 Arcade TAS of 2011
Most people accept my decision is enough to me.I really hope moozooh would consider about my decision. Maybe it will be a pity.But I must say thanks that you accept my Guerilla War and Monster in My Pocket RUN.
Do the work.
Posted: 2/23/2011 5:04 PM
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moozooh
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5770
Location: Away
Aktan wrote:
So after talking to my cousin who is a game designer, I found some of his points interesting
Some of his points also fail to take into account that, while speedruns in general (and TASes in particular) are ideologically allowed to warp the rules imposed by developers by being unexpectedly precise and arranging circumstances in a way to have additional leverage, they can't warp the definitions and principles of beating the game fairly, such as not using passwords, not using cheats, not using officially documented level skips (unless for a specific reason), and generally not making things easier for the sake of making them easier. His status as a game designer doesn't change that. (In fact, it bears no relation to the subject at hand whatsoever.)
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 2/23/2011 5:10 PM
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Aktan
Publisher
Joined: 4/23/2009
Posts: 1283
moozooh wrote:
Some of his points also fail to take into account that, while speedruns in general (and TASes in particular) are ideologically allowed to warp the rules imposed by developers by being unexpectedly precise and arranging circumstances in a way to have additional leverage, they can't warp the definitions and principles of beating the game fairly, such as not using passwords, not using cheats, not using officially documented level skips (unless for a specific reason), and generally not making things easier for the sake of making them easier. His status as a game designer doesn't change that. (In fact, it bears no relation to the subject at hand whatsoever.)
Actually, I think his point (which I think you fail to realize), is that the original intent of continues was not to save time. Those examples you just gave are obviously known to save time. Continues on the other hand, by your definition of an arcade continue above, does not. Hence what x2poet did was out of the norm. I should clarify that what I mean by "save time", I meant in speedrunning, which is the goal of this TAS.
Posted: 2/23/2011 5:27 PM
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moozooh
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Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5770
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Again, the original intent of continues is helping an incapable player. In this particular case they are used for this help exactly. The benefits are the same and are used the same way. They are used exactly according to how it was intended. The fact that it saves time is a by-product of this help making the character more powerful for no particular reason. The benefits provided by putting in additional coins in arcade games are not a secret (and never were), and them providing player with additional weapons, full powerups, and other hefty bonuses are known to help getting through the game. Why do you think that's new or clever or whatnot is beyond me. I thought it was common sense not to use them because it cheapens the whole experience completely and invalidates achievements, which is accepted in arcade communities worldwide. That's because everybody can get through any game with unlimited continues, no matter how hard it is, because the challenge in any non-puzzle game consists in the fact of having (extremely) limited resources that require skill to put to good use. If you can't see how making them unlimited in this way is equaled to cheating, I don't know how to explain it anymore. I will stand by my point that speedruns are not about making an arbitrary number on the front page smaller, but rather about beating the game fast by using (superhuman) skills, wit, and precision. I believe that using continues in cases like this (see my post above) are going against that principle. I have said enough on the matter; agree or disagree.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 2/23/2011 5:32 PM
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Aktan
Publisher
Joined: 4/23/2009
Posts: 1283
moozooh wrote:
Why do you think that's new or clever or whatnot is beyond me. I thought it was common sense not to use them because it cheapens the whole experience completely and invalidates achievements, which is accepted in arcade communities worldwide. That's because everybody can get through any game with unlimited continues, no matter how hard it is, because the challenge in any non-puzzle game consists in the fact of having (extremely) limited resources that require skill to put to good use. If you can't see how making them unlimited in this way is equaled to cheating, I don't know how to explain it anymore.
So wait, if you were new to speedrunning, you would consider using continues as a good way to beat the game fast? Heck, if you have not seen so many TASes use death to beat the game, you would immediately think dying is a good way to save time?
Posted: 2/23/2011 5:42 PM
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moozooh
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Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5770
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I'm not, and was not, considering continues as a way to beat anything, period. Fast, good, doesn't matter. I've got a game over, that doesn't change, the fact that I buy myself a way to continue playing doesn't change the fact that I've got a game over. When I was new to speedruns I didn't immediately think dying (or even taking damage) was cool until I came to appreciate the lives/hitpoints being a finite allotted resource, putting the player at risk and/or another disadvantage (like losing a current weapon) for a potential benefit of saving time. This requires research to see where and how it can help, and I came to see it as a valid technique for the reasons stated. However, even that doesn't mean I appreciate taking damage or dying in certain games which in my opinion look better without.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 2/23/2011 5:45 PM
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Aktan
Publisher
Joined: 4/23/2009
Posts: 1283
moozooh wrote:
I'm not, and was not, considering continues as a way to beat anything, period. Fast, good, doesn't matter. I've got a game over, that doesn't change, the fact that I buy myself a way to continue playing doesn't change the fact that I've got a game over.
So, any game over for you is considered bad. I guess you didn't like OoT much either, huh. I should mention, getting to a continue in Metal Slug needs planning too, if you think about it. You can't just get a continue on the whim via dying over and over at one spot and still save time. The deaths do need to be planned.
Posted: 2/23/2011 5:59 PM
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arkiandruski
Reviewer, Active player (277)
Joined: 12/14/2006
Posts: 717
Sega TASer of 2018
I'm still turned off by save/death warping, personally. I tend to only like death if it has an immediate and surprising benefit, or if it's done right before a transition so it doesn't register. Refilling resources or returning to checkpoints in an open world game are blah.
My favorite movies
Posted: 2/23/2011 6:26 PM
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adelikat
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Joined: 11/3/2004
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TASer of 2010 NES TASer of 2010 DS TASer of 2010 Arcade TAS of 2010 NES TASer of 2008 NES TAS of 2008 Funny TAS of 2008 TASer of 2007 NES TASer of 2007 Funny TAS of 2007
moozooh wrote:
until I came to appreciate the lives/hitpoints being a finite allotted resource, putting the player at risk and/or another disadvantage (like losing a current weapon) for a potential benefit of saving time. This requires research to see where and how it can help, and I came to see it as a valid technique for the reasons stated.
I think this points to a striking difference between using conintues in an arcade game versus the console TASes that have employed this technique. In the arcade, death & continues are not a finite resource (in the context of a TAS).
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
Posted: 2/23/2011 6:38 PM
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Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
More generally, in most console games, deaths are either a finite resource, or they're infinite and dying to the point of needing a continue is not helpful. In almost all arcade games, deaths are functionally infinite and continuing is actively helpful. Exceptions exist to both rules (I'm sure I've heard of an arcade game where you were limited to at most three continues), but these should be sufficient for making rules of thumb.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Posted: 2/23/2011 6:47 PM
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KennyMan666
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Joined: 8/24/2005
Posts: 375
Location: Göteboj
Derakon wrote:
I'm sure I've heard of an arcade game where you were limited to at most three continues
Haunted Castle did that.
Det man inte har i begåvning får man ta ut i energi. "I think I need to get to Snoop Dogg's level of high to be able to research this post." -Samsara Read my fanfic, One Piece: Pure Corruption
Posted: 2/23/2011 8:07 PM
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Noob_Irdoh
Joined: 6/4/2009
Posts: 570
Location: 33°07'41"S, 160°42'04"W
moozooh wrote:
Setting lives down is not available in the game because it requires manipulating hardware (in this case, dip switches), correct? Well, in that case you should consider that coin slot is also a hardware device that is being manipulated externally by using, well, coins — which aren't available in the game. There's really no difference.
Manipulating the dip switches is necessary if one wants to play a game at the hardest difficulty level, though. Like level 8 for Neo-Geo games or similar settings for CPS games. Then again, this can be seen like entering a password for unlocking the hardest level. So I kinda contradicted myself here.
Derakon wrote:
I'm sure I've heard of an arcade game where you were limited to at most three continues
The arcade version of Rainbow Islands gives you infinite continues during the normal islands (1 to 7) instead, but disallows you to continue once you enter the secret islands (8 to 10).
Posted: 2/24/2011 12:34 AM
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Bag_of_Magic_Food
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Active player (277)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
moozooh wrote:
I'm not, and was not, considering continues as a way to beat anything, period. Fast, good, doesn't matter. I've got a game over, that doesn't change, the fact that I buy myself a way to continue playing doesn't change the fact that I've got a game over.
But if you can continue playing, then the game was not really over, was it? The phrase "Game over" was a lie!
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Posted: 2/24/2011 1:14 AM
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Sonikkustar
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Sega TASer of 2021 Sega TAS of 2021 Sega TASer of 2011 Sega TAS of 2011
Umm...You know, there is a difference between a game over screen and a continue screen. If it was truly a game over, then the run would be at the first stage.
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Posted: 2/24/2011 2:31 AM
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Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
In most arcade games, a game over screen is just what you get if you let the continue screen time out. Arcade games have different definitions of failure from console games, the better to milk money from you.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Posted: 2/24/2011 6:35 AM
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X2poet
Skilled player (1470)
Joined: 12/30/2007
Posts: 485
Location: Hubei,China
Exotic platforms TAS of 2015 TASer of 2011 Arcade TASer of 2011 Arcade TAS of 2011
http://www.mediafire.com/?aen9ft2mrvneqv2 Here's the version I use death in Metal Slug 1. I'm afraid I will use continue in the last stage.The final boss has more HP. This is the same situation in Metal Slug X.MISSION 5 boss battle looks foolish but I have no choice.
Do the work.
Posted: 2/24/2011 8:09 AM
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feos
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Joined: 4/17/2010
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NES TAS of 2011
Sonikkustar wrote:
Umm...You know, there is a difference between a game over screen and a continue screen. If it was truly a game over, then the run would be at the first stage.
In NES TMNT 3 we see "Game Over" multiple times, but then 1 life gets borrowed from another player. Also in Arcade TMNT DarkKobold USES coins to get lives, which at the begining numbered 0 for all turtles. So lifes ARE actually infinite in this run.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 2/24/2011 11:05 AM
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KennyMan666
He/Him
Joined: 8/24/2005
Posts: 375
Location: Göteboj
X2poet wrote:
I'm afraid I will use continue in the last stage.
Please don't.
X2poet wrote:
MISSION 5 boss battle looks foolish but I have no choice.
Yes you do. Using continues will make it look far, far more foolish.
Det man inte har i begåvning får man ta ut i energi. "I think I need to get to Snoop Dogg's level of high to be able to research this post." -Samsara Read my fanfic, One Piece: Pure Corruption
Posted: 2/24/2011 11:09 AM
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X2poet
Skilled player (1470)
Joined: 12/30/2007
Posts: 485
Location: Hubei,China
Exotic platforms TAS of 2015 TASer of 2011 Arcade TASer of 2011 Arcade TAS of 2011
No,you always insist your idea I appreciate.But it is acceptable then I will consider about it. Did tmnt3,Arkanoid and mimp appear game over? How do you think of that?Is it wrong?
Do the work.
Posted: 2/24/2011 1:54 PM
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X2poet
Skilled player (1470)
Joined: 12/30/2007
Posts: 485
Location: Hubei,China
Exotic platforms TAS of 2015 TASer of 2011 Arcade TASer of 2011 Arcade TAS of 2011
KennyMan666 wrote:
Yes you do. Using continues will make it look far, far more foolish.
You didn't know what I mean.I mean if not use continue in mslugX,the MISSION 5 boss battle will look foolish like this. So you like it? Both you don't like.So I have no words to say.Only complete my run and give most of the members who like it.
Do the work.
Posted: 2/24/2011 2:03 PM
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Atma
Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
Put bluntly, the continue lets you skip 2 trains, and have precisely no effect on anything else, since, well, there's nothing else in the stage before your next weapon powerup oppurtunity. It also looks poorly implemented, in a sense that it looked like it was something you decided upon in a spur of the moment thing, rather than planned from the start. In an arcade game, especially one such as this, 1CCing it (even better if you didn't die) is far more entertaining to watch than sloppy death and continuing, even if there is a speed tradeoff.
Posted: 2/24/2011 2:08 PM
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moozooh
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Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5770
Location: Away
X2poet wrote:
So you like it? Both you don't like.
He didn't see it, so he can't like or dislike it. You never asked which version is more (less) entertaining as you never showed the alternative.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
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