The arguments presented by those who ARE in favor of this run obsoleting the previous, boil down to three things:
1) rejecting this submission would be rude to the authors as they have exerted much effort making it;
2) this is a speedrun site, entertainment doesn't matter;
3) you have to TAS SM64 to be able to vote no (voting yes, however, is perfectly alright), and people doing that are idiots.
My thoughts were more along the lines that the camera angles chosen are not annoying nor do they make it impossible to tell what's going on. Honestly I didn't even think about them until I saw the thread talking about them.
Joined: 2/12/2008
Posts: 67
Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA
IMHO, annoying and confusing camera angles aren't worth 3 frames. Voted Meh.
If it were much faster than the current one, I'd vote yes, but 3 frames don't cut it.
Im still wondering why Moltov isnt inserted as a player for the previous run, and yet I dont bicker about stupidly small things like that in a run. I understand that some camera angles could be annoying, but there always seems to be something extremely small that the audience seems to target and bitch continuously for no reason.
Therefore, Im voting Yes for a solid improvement. Congratulations guys! Now make that *120 star run. :\
How could I be late to this "camera angles" drama... I mean, come on, on some FPS the angle is basiclly non existant because to save time you must look at the wall or the floor most of the time and I don't see a lot of people complaining about it. So if you can or can't see most of the action that hurts the enterteinment (no doubt) but the fact the movie IS faster is a heavier reason to vote Yes until someone else figures out another faster and more angle free way.
but the fact the movie IS faster is a heavier reason to vote Yes until someone else figures out another faster and more angle free way.
The movie's existence in itself demonstrates that it is possible to save 3 frames without any restrictions on camera angles. The camera angles are entirely "entertainment choices." It is NOT "changes camera angles to save 3 frames."
i barely can understand whats going on,
also why the you didnt get the star after defeating bowser 3?
i liked the movie, voting yes but i thing you should finish the game
Seeing where a character is going is not required to make an entertaining run; the Sonic and Megaman runs have proven that, what with their broken physics.
I personally felt the new camera work presented a fresh, new feeling of wackiness that perfectly fits the game's atmosphere as it gets broken to hell. It's like the Lakitu holding the camera is hopped up on some serious caffeine or other drugs.
This type of..."artistic rebellion", I guess would be a good phrase to use here...should be done more often, in my opinion. Yes vote.
EDIT: Wait, what? The run has more than twice as many yes votes than nos...that doesn't match up with the verbal beatdowns in this thread. It seems those who hate the camera work are actually the minority, not the other way around...<_<
So yeah, at the second page, I've stated my Meh vote. The camera angle didn't annoy me at all. I could follow Mario correctly. I just didn't count this as entertainment value.
The reason I voted Meh is the fact I can't see a visible improvement. I think that HappyLee made a great visible improvement for the latest published Super Mario Bros. movie, which is why this was my most stupid No vote ever. But in the case of this very submission, I don't regret my Meh vote. But why Meh? Because they made a good effort to save some time.
I wish that if this gets published, we all vote at least the same thing we voted for its predecessor. Because it's still an awesome movie.
I guess it will be a tough choice for adelikat. Which will win? 3 frames improvement or (what people call) bad camera angle?
I don't vote (in part, to avoid arguments like this), but could we perhaps make a guideline (but not an outright rule) that entertainment is a factor for improvements to existing runs that don't feature a significant route change? Seriously, that's what this seems to be about. If this TAS were executed differently from the previous run in any meaningful way, I think it would be accepted in a heartbeat, regardless of the camera angles.
EDIT: Wait, what? The run has more than twice as many yes votes than nos...that doesn't match up with the verbal beatdowns in this thread. It seems those who hate the camera work are actually the minority, not the other way around...<_<
XD When the hell has that ever mattered? It's entirely up to the judge who judges the movie. That's the way it always has been, that's the way it always will be, no matter if they try to make it look like everyone else's opinion is worth a damn.
...The reason it's probably not going to be accepted is not - I repeat: not - because we think you are worthless (somebody said this - I believe it was true)...
My saying this wasn't at all in regards to publishing this movie - it is a generalization about my user across this site and its properties. Of course, the movie is part of the site, but I just wanted to make this point clear.
Swordless Link brings up a good point. To extend this, a decent amount of the baaww-camera-angles posts have been made by those who have seen this game many times already.
I think no need to play with the game camera, blew it.
The arrival at the castle could have been better, many frames could be saved.
I do not understand why the pauses in this add?
I would vote no
: - /
Your claim about the arrival being possible to do faster: prove it.
And about the pauses, read up on the history of the previous version, it explains them nicely.
I think no need to play with the game camera, blew it.
The arrival at the castle could have been better, many frames could be saved.
I do not understand why the pauses in this add?
I would vote no
: - /
If your so confident that it could be done faster, why don't you make a SM64 run right now and submit it? Also, try not to pause in your awesome run, k?
I wish other runs get as much attention than this one. So many voters!
Anyway, back to my original point: I see two reasons for accepting such a movie
1° It uses a new glitch/technique/anything to save time
2° It improves the way the movie is made, while saving frames from a better optimization.
Here, we're closer to the second point, it really sounds as nitpicking to me. Compare this movie to the previous one, you won't be able to tell when a frame is saved. Yes, I'm aware how 3D games are hard to optimize and save frames in. Still the movie doesn't show any new trick, any new spectacular improvement. It gives a different camera point of view, which personally (attention people, this is just an opinion here!) made my stomach angry (especially the zooms in/out phases). That's sad, because that's a good idea, but I really didn't like it.
Yes this movie IS an improvement and CAN BE accepted as such. Still, I think I would prefer to see a movie with brand new improvements or something different concerning the camera. And no, I won't be mad if the movie is published or if no one cares about my opinion at all.
Cheer up guys, we're in the same team!
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Swordless Link wrote:
EDIT: Wait, what? The run has more than twice as many yes votes than nos...that doesn't match up with the verbal beatdowns in this thread. It seems those who hate the camera work are actually the minority, not the other way around...<_<
XD When the hell has that ever mattered? It's entirely up to the judge who judges the movie. That's the way it always has been, that's the way it always will be, no matter if they try to make it look like everyone else's opinion is worth a damn.
As mentioned many many times in the past, posts on the workbench weigh a lot more than the voting tally.
A well written argument can outweigh the many silent votes. Further, some voters may have changed their vote if they happened to read all the arguments themselves (and were able to). Also, in some cases, users have registered multiple accounts for inflating the vote count in some direction, we have not caught them all. For all these reasons, if you really want your vote to count, back it up with a reason to publish/reject.
In light of all this, you may ask why bother collecting a tally at all? The tally is a lose indication of how the audience feels, and can be very useful if there's not many posts made. But note, we rarely accept videos with <70% approval rating. Just like most schools require 65/100 in order to pass an examination, and 51/100 isn't good enough, we also care a great deal when a large percentage of our viewers don't like a run.
If so many people truly like this run, they should post about it, they should post convincing arguments, and try to win over some of the audience to their viewpoint. So far, most of the yes voters who are trying to win their side, just keep using the argument "but it's faster". There's nothing compelling about such an argument. How would you feel if someone made a run which beat this by a whole minute, but the entire run had the camera zoomed in on Mario's shoes, and all you could see the entire movie was Mario's shoes and nothing else? Clearly a line has to be drawn somewhere.
The only comments I've seen here that do favor acceptance are those that have commented that the camera angles have not detracted from the watchability of the movie.
If you really think watchability has no factor in the movie at all, and the record is all that matters, then why are you even bothering to fight for it to have a published video? The submission itself proves your record. Publication is all about the end video, and that has to be enjoyable to most of our viewers. Even though the yes votes here are currently the slim majority, it really doesn't convey whether the end video will in fact be enjoyable to the viewers or not. Clearly some are voting on record alone.
Yes, we judges do care about your opinions. That's why we care what the thread has to say, and not just the tally on the submission page.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
If this doesn't get published, then we should revert a few super mario bros (nes and N64) runs cause many of them improved prior runs by a few mere frames. Some of them actually had bad camera angles and bad "style" but still were accepted. I definitely vote yes because it improves the current published run. Yeah, the camera handling was a bit annoying but not to the extent for me to vote no.
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
Now that this movie exists, I'll definitely show it instead: I loved these new camera angles! And especially the zooming in and out in time with the sound effects! Why on earth do you need to see exactly where mario is going? The point is he's zooming around crazily and beating the game in five minutes.
You make it sound like sarcasm.
AngerFist wrote:
If this doesn't get published, then we should revert a few super mario bros (nes and N64) runs cause many of them improved prior runs by a few mere frames. Some of them actually had bad camera angles and bad "style" but still were accepted.
Do you have some actual examples to back that up? (Preferably examples of submissions which improved the existing run by just a few frames and where the "camera angles" were considered worse... or different at all for that matter. And I'm not claiming there are no examples; it's just that I can't remember any.)
Now that this movie exists, I'll definitely show it instead: I loved these new camera angles! And especially the zooming in and out in time with the sound effects! Why on earth do you need to see exactly where mario is going? The point is he's zooming around crazily and beating the game in five minutes.
You make it sound like sarcasm.
I really didn't mean to; sorry it came across that way. I honestly thought this movie was awesome. Maybe zooms in and out aren't for everybody (they worked for me but I understand it might make someone nauseous) but aesthetic movements sync'd to game sound and music is something I *really* want to see more of in TASes. I think this is a huge step in the right direction, and it makes me really sad to see so many people disliking it, as I think it will discourage future authors from trying out creative stuff in 2d runs where it wouldn't bother people.
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
I really like that people are trying out new things, but if a WIP of this had been posted in the game's thread, I think it would have become clear pretty early on that there are enough people that dislike this. Then the authors could have done the run using the normal camera viewpoints and this whole issue would have been avoided. Of course, something else would probably have popped up, but they would at least have had my vote in that case.
We really need to do something to get these great Japanese TASers to the site... I understand there's a language barrier, but I'm pretty sure that the majority of the active people here do not have English as their first language. So if we manage to get that to work, we should be capable of bringing the two TASing communities together.
And to further clarify my point; I really do miss at least somewhat being capable of seeing where Mario is going, but I mostly dislike the camera work because I too find it a little nauseating. When I vote I mainly think about whether I want a movie to represent the game on this site. And, well, unfortunately I don't think this is a good movie to show to the general audience (and somewhat represent TAS Videos itself, SM64 is one of the biggest and most popular games on here) due to the aforementioned reasons.
Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!
I think the camera work was playful.
Voting yes.
Scepheo wrote:
We really need to do something to get these great Japanese TASers to the site...
Yeah, this is more important than camera angles in a single run. Maybe add a Japanese forum section? Or "international" forum section for any language?
We really need to do something to get these great Japanese TASers to the site...
Yeah, this is more important than camera angles in a single run.
Accepting a run to encourage the creators to become active members of the site and keep making TASes may be a well-intentioned goal, but I wouldn't say it's a valid reason to accept the submission.
(Btw, personally I don't have a problem with this being accepted, as I commented in a previous post. The choice of camera angles might not be the best possible in all situations, but I didn't find them too annoying.)
Accepting a run to encourage the creators to become active members of the site and keep making TASes may be a well-intentioned goal, but I wouldn't say it's a valid reason to accept the submission.
That is also not what I meant. If anything, it would set a bad precedent.
Joined: 8/3/2008
Posts: 157
Location: The Land Down Under
Master of Pigs wrote:
I think no need to play with the game camera, blew it.
The arrival at the castle could have been better, many frames could be saved.
I do not understand why the pauses in this add?
I would vote no
: - /
^ LOL
My vote many pages back was a yes, and having now read this flame wa-err i mean discussion, my vote is still a yes.
Having seen so many previous runs and having a good idea of what to expect out of mario given the tiny improvement, I was actually glad for some alternate camera angles to mix things up.
People seem to be making a massive deal out of it on the forum, but i'm betting that a lot of people such as myself simply didn't see it as an issue.
And as Personman said, it can be fun to have mario blitzing around in a seemingly more chaotic manner.
