Joined: 9/21/2009
Posts: 1047
Location: California
CosmoZSR wrote:
It depresses me that both SDA and TASVideos have this strange subjective attraction to "entertainment" versus speed and somehow weigh them against eachother as if that is a fair system.
Publish the fastest run. This is the fastest run.
It depresses me that both SDA and TASVideos have this strange subjective attraction to "entertainment" versus speed and somehow weigh them against eachother as if that is a fair system.
Well, the primary goal of the website is entertainment, not record-keeping. That comes as a secondary goal.
If someone made a run that was 1 frame faster than this, but mostly consisted of a black screen, should it be published just because it's faster?
It depresses me that both SDA and TASVideos have this strange subjective attraction to "entertainment" versus speed and somehow weigh them against eachother as if that is a fair system.
Publish the fastest run. This is the fastest run.
I wholly agree with this sentiment. Its frustrating when shit might not be as entertaining as a previous run, but anyone who says the sites goal is "entertainment first" is not being realistic. I don't care if its written in the rules, faq, whatever, since some ridiculously high % (97? 98%?) of the runs on the site focus on speed first, and are constantly being obsoleted by fast runs.
And yes, by "what the hell is wrong with you people" i am saying that yes, you are entitled to an opinion, but it seems as if the mob mentality has taken over just because a few select people didn't like the camera angles to begin with. Idk i just feel like half this thread is completely biased against this run just because the camera angles were mentioned, and they went into the run looking for bad camera angles (i will admit, i expected the camera angles to blow when i watched the run based on what i had read in this thread).
I'm a bit sad, that a technically good submission nearly rips off an already long-living helpful scene. Nobody is irresponsible for this, everyone just tells their opinion regarding the submission. People are different, and it's impossible to satisfy everyone, and these TASes are about to complete the game as fast as possible, and not making the greatest (visual) movie in the first place.
I would also like to apologize if my earlier posts sounded too harsh about the camera action. I think that others also raised their expectations about this camera thing after reading the submission text. You have to understand, that even if it's just a very small percentage of the scene, the movie became a little bit seizure inducing. I actually don't have huge problems (like epilepsy or anything), but I do have problem with watching this movie.
The biggest problem (I think, and feel free to correct me, it's only my opinion) is that the previous run was one of the most famous movie on the site, many others watched it outside from this scene. This means, that the new movie will also gain popularity for the few weeks, especially if the star will stay on the run. So I highly advice, that either make a disclaimer in the intro about the possibilities of motion sickening, since the viewer's audience (according to the game) could be kids, and I don't know much about epilepsy, but I think it's worse if the movie is in 3D. I say that cause I never had problems with 2D "seizure inducing" movies, only 3D.
The other solution should be re-doing this TAS with better camera angles, but it's raises the same questions: 1. is it possible, 2. could it be betters, 3. motivation... So I would be okay if just a simple disclaimer should appear before the movie starts regarding seizure inducing.
Also, don't wait for one man to decide in everything. These kind of situations needs time and not action. I also suggest to move this whole debate into a trash thread to stop expanding it, but make it accessible for a precedent if needed in the future. Thank you for reading my opinion, and I hope that people who read this will start thinking about how to solve this situation. Good luck for everyone.
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
Joined: 2/20/2010
Posts: 209
Location: I'm in space
CosmoZSR wrote:
It depresses me that both SDA and TASVideos have this strange subjective attraction to "entertainment" versus speed and somehow weigh them against eachother as if that is a fair system.
Publish the fastest run. This is the fastest run.
I understand what you're saying, but I don't really get what the whole POINT is if we aren't primarily concerned with the "OMG AWESOME" = "entertainment" factor. For example, say there's totally awesome, massively entertaining run 'A', then along comes less entertaining but slightly quicker run 'B'. I personally don't give a shit about 'B', because if I'm not as entertained, then - for me at least - the time is better spent watching 'A'. As one who doesn't make TASes, my reasons for frequenting this site are (1) the movies are *entertaining* and often extremely creative, and (2) I like the community - you guys are great.
That said, isn't it most important to publish TASes that *everybody* can enjoy and appreciate?
EDIT: Also - I just wanted to repeat the following, since - I think - it's an excellent point that neatly sums up the problem with this submission (not sure whether this was Nach's intent):
Nach wrote:
But if this is published, should the run keep its star?
Oh, play it cool. Play it cool. Here come the space cops.
That said, isn't it most important to publish TASes that *everybody* can enjoy and appreciate?
There seems to be a not-insignificant fraction of people who find runs less entertaining solely because they know there is a faster run. I don't claim to understand this myself.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
There seems to be a not-insignificant fraction of people who find runs less entertaining solely because they know there is a faster run. I don't claim to understand this myself.
There are probably people further along this spectrum than I, but for me at least, that's putting the cart before the horse. The previous run is not in any way lessened for me by the existence of this one. It is totally awesome. It's more that this run is entertaining in part *because* it is the absolute bleeding edge of how far this game can be pushed. I think it's much fairer to say that the entertainment of a faster run is *increased* for people like me than to say that entertainment of a slower one is *decreased*.
For many runs, even those that are showered in praise by most of the community, I can't sit through them -- it's just the game being beaten optimally, with no crazy-looking glitches or anything. Even many segments of incredible runs like Megaman 2 are just running to the right and pressing fire really fast, and I often skip around in such runs quite a bit. In these cases, most of the entertainment for me comes from reading the submission comments and understanding how every last pixel and frame was squeezed out.
One example of a run I (and I expect most people) find much less entertaining to watch than a previous version is Pokemon Yellow - it used to have the amazing "Go! 999999999999999999999999999999", then after that was gone it had the bizarrely glitched and 9-filled landscape, and now you just walk out the door and win. But nobody voted no on that run because the old one was more entertaining to watch -- the entertainment comes from seeing and reading about and understanding how utterly broken the game is.
Of course, that doesn't make the old versions any less entertaining, and as a matter of fact, I tend to show people all three recent major routes. Of course, since the run is only about a minute long, that's less of an issue there, but still...
Honestly, while I don't think it's necessary, it would be fine with me if the old version keeps its star and is the version most prominently put forward by the site -- just so long as it comes with a note along the lines of 'there is a slightly faster but somewhat more controversial movie as well, check it out'.
Maybe every game that wants to should have a 'fastest' category and a 'most entertaining' category, with both movies embedded on the same publication page...
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Seriously, I can't wait to see adelikat's answer to this movie. Just to see who won the "civil war".
Looking at it as a win for either side is kinda the wrong way. It isn't 'us vs. them', its differing opinions on what is best for the site. Really, both sides want the best for tasvideos, it is just a disagreement of which is a 'better' run.
A slower run with better camera angles?
or
A faster run with questionable camera angles?
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
If its a discussion about the philosophy for better runs on the site, then I think that this discussion needs to be in a different topic because this is getting ridiculous.
I think it'd be wise to just reject this submission now. I guess what's happening here is that the more experienced TASers got bored with the same old camera angles, so changing them to something new made it more novel/entertaining to them. But to a casual audience these camera angles are just as confusing as the old OoT constant backwalking runs. As it seems obvious to me that one of this site's goals is to keep TASes appealing to an audience as broad as possible, I guess this would just have to be rejected based on that, and somewhere mentioned in the current publication.
Keep in mind that the current version of this run is starred and thus recommended to first time viewers. Can this version of the run really be recommended to first time viewers? I unfortunately don't think so. Especially the angles in BitS would make this very hard to follow for them.
I had originally voted yes, but after giving it some thought I have now changed my opinion.
It depresses me that both SDA and TASVideos have this strange subjective attraction to "entertainment" versus speed and somehow weigh them against eachother as if that is a fair system.
Publish the fastest run. This is the fastest run.
Absolutely spot-on.
More importantly, speed is an objective measurement, while "entertaining" is a subjective measurement. These submission issues would be resolved if we simply appealed to an objective standard.
Tool-assistance is trivially primarily about speed, or we wouldn't obsolete runs primarily based on time. It's silly to say, "A faster submission? Submit! A faster submission? Submit! A faster submission? Well, this ones not as incrementally faster as the others, maybe faster isn't better..."; be consistent. We're suppose to find maximizing speed entertaining, or that wouldn't be the overarching goal of TASing. And in the cases where we feel we want both speed and completeness, we have those categories too.
If a run is made for non-speed entertainment, it should go in the hacks/demos/other section; and if you want to watch runs based on non-speed entertainment instead of for-speed, head on over there. Leave the for-speed sections alone.
Hey guys I'm not sure if this has been discussed already, but isn't it important that the movies are entertaining, in addition to being fast? I feel like you maybe want to consider both when judging a movie? I dunno these are just some initial thoughts.
Finally a new record for SM64!
I just watched it and I was amazed by the superior quality to the previous run.
I skimmed through some of the discussion before posting here and would like to say that it would be a damn shame if the racist americans reject this japanese masterpiece.
This was pure awesomeness from beginning to end =)
Please publish so more people will be able to see it!
edit:
I would like to add that logic dictates that this is the correct way to look at it:
GMan wrote:
CosmoZSR wrote:
It depresses me that both SDA and TASVideos have this strange subjective attraction to "entertainment" versus speed and somehow weigh them against eachother as if that is a fair system.
Publish the fastest run. This is the fastest run.
Absolutely spot-on.
More importantly, speed is an objective measurement, while "entertaining" is a subjective measurement. These submission issues would be resolved if we simply appealed to an objective standard.
Tool-assistance is trivially primarily about speed, or we wouldn't obsolete runs primarily based on time. It's silly to say, "A faster submission? Submit! A faster submission? Submit! A faster submission? Well, this ones not as incrementally faster as the others, maybe faster isn't better..."; be consistent. We're suppose to find maximizing speed entertaining, or that wouldn't be the overarching goal of TASing. And in the cases where we feel we want both speed and completeness, we have those categories too.
If a run is made for non-speed entertainment, it should go in the hacks/demos/other section; and if you want to watch runs based on non-speed entertainment instead of for-speed, head on over there. Leave the for-speed sections alone.
Tool-assistance is trivially primarily about speed, or we wouldn't obsolete runs primarily based on time.
We don't.
GMan wrote:
If a run is made for non-speed entertainment, it should go in the hacks/demos/other section; and if you want to watch runs based on non-speed entertainment instead of for-speed, head on over there. Leave the for-speed sections alone.
We don't have a "for-speed section". TASVideos isn't about creating the objectively fastest video. Otherwise, we would allow passwords to skip levels. But we don't, because not using them is more entertaining. We would also allow cheats if they reduce completion time. But we don't, because this is more entertaining. Don't you get it? TASVideos is not about pure speed. Sure, a certain amount of entertainment is derived from speed of completion, but every now and then the increase in speed - and thereby the increase in entertainment - is not enough to warrant the loss of entertainment due to other factors. The whole discussion is about whether that is what happened with this submission.
If you want a purely speed oriented site; fine, go make one. But don't keep saying that is what TASVideos is (or should be) because it's not. Get over it.
EDIT:
Synx wrote:
I skimmed through some of the discussion before posting here and would like to say that it would be a damn shame if the racist americans reject this japanese masterpiece.
I can't help but stop taking you serious. That's just plain stupid.
Fabian wrote:
Hey guys I'm not sure if this has been discussed already, but isn't it important that the movies are entertaining, in addition to being fast? I feel like you maybe want to consider both when judging a movie? I dunno these are just some initial thoughts.
I skimmed through some of the discussion before posting here and would like to say that it would be a damn shame if the racist americans reject this japanese masterpiece.
Damn right! I haven't realized it at first, but TASvideos is indeed racist. If you look at the goombas in the top-left corner, you'll notice that their skin is brown! And Mario is going to stomp on them! Also note that, while SDA backgrounds are mostly black, TASVideos's are white or very light blue, indicating white supremacy.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
moozooh wrote:
Synx wrote:
I skimmed through some of the discussion before posting here and would like to say that it would be a damn shame if the racist americans reject this japanese masterpiece.
Damn right! I haven't realized it at first, but TASvideos is indeed racist. If you look at the goombas in the top-left corner, you'll notice that their skin is brown! And Mario is going to stomp on them! Also note that, while SDA backgrounds are mostly black, TASVideos's are white or very light blue, indicating white supremacy.
I couldn't agree with you more. Further, we should round up everyone that doesn't have a strong German rooted or German sounding name, take them out back, and shoot them.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
You all lost me at page four honestly. I don't comment on the games often, but I regularly visit the site and enjoy the games being broken. That being said, the argument seems to have boiled down to two main groups: those that like the improvements, therefore wanting the submission published as is, and those that feel like the entertainment value was lost, therefore despite the improvements, vote no. The other small contingent are using personal attacks to drive the conversation away from the game (insulting people's intelligence with nonsense that doesn't have to do with SM 64 in my opinion). That being said, I have a suggestion that may alleviate some of the debate: publish the movie but make sure it has the tag "entertainment/speed trade-offs". This covers those that want to see it published (for speed), and those that feel the run suffers from entertainment woes (hence the "trade-off"). I know this won't please everyone, but I feel this would at least placate both sides until a permanent solution could be devised (or not). Whatever the decision, that won't stop me from coming here to view games being TASed. For my thoughts on the run: I liked the published run and I feel like this technically "is" an improvement over that. However, per the site guidelines for publication, it does state that games must have frame improvement (since this game has been run before) AND entertainment value as well. As arbitrary as it may seem to some, that is a part of the rules, so that is what this site looks for. In conclusion, there will be some that will comment and say that my Lurker status doesn't allow me an opinion. I am NOT an expert at TASing, and while I may not post often, I do have eyes, and I used them to watch and vote (yes); nothing else. Frame-by-frame breaking down of WIPs and submissions is best left up to the experts, of which I am not. I hope this has helped try to resolve the conflict.
I fully support Nach as my Führer and wish to work hard to prove my worth as a pure Aryan. We must start preparations to establish the Seventh Reich.
May the Führer bring our race back to its days of glory and beyond!
That being said, I have a suggestion that may alleviate some of the debate: publish the movie but make sure it has the tag "entertainment/speed trade-offs".
But this movie doesn't have those. The tag is applied to runs where maximum speed is sacrificed in order to increase entertainment. That doesn't apply to this submission at all.
Nach wrote:
I couldn't agree with you more. Further, we should round up everyone that doesn't have a strong German rooted or German sounding name, take them out back, and shoot them.
I suppose nordic people are safe too, considering that we belong to the aryan race and all...
Joined: 2/20/2010
Posts: 209
Location: I'm in space
Synx wrote:
I skimmed through some of the discussion before posting here and would like to say that it would be a damn shame if the racist americans reject this japanese masterpiece.
It's true. Really, my only reason for voting NO was my deep-rooted hatred of Hello Kitty, Pokemon, everything anime (except anime porn, which is awesome), the letter J, and islands. Fuck islands.
Oh, play it cool. Play it cool. Here come the space cops.
It's true. Really, my only reason for voting NO was my deep-rooted hatred of ... islands. Fuck islands.
Francis? Is that you?
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Francis? Is that you?
