This Movie's Traits

  • Recorded in FCEUX 2.1.4a
  • Controls 2 players
  • Uses deaths to save time
  • Abuses programming errors
  • Manipulates luck
  • Contains speed/entertainment tradeoffs

The Used Characters

I used one Toad & one Dragon, for this is a crossover game and the run must represent it. Pimple and Billy have the longest jumps, though they are initializing slower, than jumps of the rest characters. This choice allows me to cross long pits in the third level. And each member of the Toad+Dragon team can save time differently in different places.

Tricks and Glitches

Common tricks of the NES Battletoads engine are:
  • Hyper jump: run and jump at once. Allows to charge in midair.
  • Initiaizing the fatal attack on one object & releasing it onto another.
  • Left+Right glitch, with different results, like diagonal & vertical running.
  • Killing bosses with all the same lower attack.
  • Jumping above the screen when sitting on the jet.
Exclusive tricks of this run:
  • Hitting emenies through the walls.
  • Catching the dynamite through the wall.
  • Running through the grid borders, crawling on the wall in Level 2-2.
  • Flying jet in Level 2-3.
  • Air jumping & air running with the help of Left+Right glitch in Level 5.
  • Hitting the item capsule & the enemy at once minimizing the lag.
  • Acting with empty HP bar in Level 5.
Hint
After the dragon comes out of the 3rd door of this level, he has NO lives & NO HP. Once the Toad hits the enemy, the Dragon gets 1 HP block back for unknown reason.

Lag

This game uses Raw PCM samples for voicing attacks, which causes tons of lag while they are playing. This means that for the fastest completion you need to use as little laggy attacks as possible.
A 2 player run causes lag in some scenes, where much less lag appears for 1 player. Especially in Level 3.
The space level has some strange delay of the discharged shots. You may shot a burst of 9 bullets (each part of the Rat Ship requires 9) and only 5 or 6 of them would reach the target instantly. The rest will appear from nowere ~10 frames later & fly towards the target. They will appear from any place you were at while shoting them. If you shot 9 bullets & fly off, you will see how they appear from the void.
I managed to minimize these delays only at the end of the Rat Ship battle by dying.

RNG and enemies' AI

I didn't use scripts or disassemble the code, as all of the luck management can be made with the "trial and error" method. But this game still has lots of things that shall be manipulated.
Which frame enemy appears at, which character it chases, how does it react on your attacks. Which type of attack your character uses on the Boss.
There were also some actions that caused the desired circumstances by accident. For example, the appearance of the third life from the Rat Ship occured after taking damage, as well as re-aiming of my missle on the enemy instead of this life object.
Even the beat-'em-up Level 5 required manipulating the chasing of rats. If they chase the wrong character, they fall down the screen & can't be beaten.

Bosses

This game has 2 types of bosses.
The first one has normal HP, just like all the rest enemies have, and its suffering status allows you to initialize the final blow, killing the boss instantly.
The other type has only the hit count, required to kill him. These bosses don't care about the type of punch they get, the counter just decreases by one each time.
But here another problem raises - the fastest hit animation. It is lower fist (or elbow) attack, which doesn't fling the suffering boss around the screen. Here you need some input manipulation. Will describe it on the future Source Page for Bt&DD.

Abobo

The second simpliest boss. If you hit the correct place & timing, you can kick him through the wall at the first frame of his existance. As he gets this hit, he starts his life from suffering status & animation. This can initialize the fatal attack on him. But after he is dead, he requires one more hit to be blown away. It is automatically animated as a final attack.

Big Blag

The easiest boss. One player hits him & the other initializes his final blow from the suffering boss.

Roper

Rather crazy boss. It has 2 possible actions: hitting you with his machine-gun or jumping before firing (accompanied by siren). The second one is optimal & shall be manipulated.
Gets 2 hits before he actually starts his life.

Ratship

Each part of it requires 9 shots, but if you have 2 players, there's a delay. It can take hits after it finishes shaking.

Robo-Manus

Can't be manipulated to act anyhow. He seems to have the separate timer for his attacks. Though they are all identical.
Gets a hit before he appears from the wall.

Shadow Boss

Has 3 possible actions: doing nothing, hitting the second (only) player and disappearing. All the manipulation is done by the second player, as he doesn't see the first player's object. After each 10 hits he turns into a tenon-thrasing form. Requires 32 hits in total.
I used 2 player to manipulate Shadow Boss so that he will be easy to hit by the toad & won't disappear. If he is on one vertical level with the dragon (and is close enough horizontally) - he instantly starts punching him

Dark Queen

After she gets some number of fast hits, starts diving into the floor. This can be stopped by one more hit each time. I kept the Dragon for these additional hits.

The Life & Death Matter

The first life I sacrificed is Billy's one in Level 2-3. Just for fun.
A bunch of lives is given up in Level 3-2 to cross the great gap by kicking the partner before death, 2 deaths were taken by Billy to kick Pimple up onto the platform, and one - to minimize the collision detection on electric walls part.
In Level 4-1 all deaths are for fun, and in 4-2 they allowed to prevent shotting delay.
The first death in Level 5 is to minimize lag, occuring when 2 dynamiters die at once. And the second death (right after hitting Robo-Manus) is because Pimple had no time to jump high enough to prevent dying from falling down during the shock animation.
The last 2 lifes lost on level 7 were for fun.

Entertainment

I was trying to keep this level high enough. Even though it means that some laggy actions shall be made. Anyway, the only tradeoff is allowing some lag for entertaining actions. There're no unnecessary stops.

Special Thanks go to

  • AnS for following all my WIPs & keeping my entertainment value high, giving advices from the normal viewer's point.
  • Aglar for checking my WIPs for the purpose of speed.
  • Ash Williams for some useful minor tricks.
  • Adelikat & Zeromus for this awesome tool TAS Edit, where the entire run was made.

Suggested Screenshot

I'm open for any better suggestions.

TAS Edit gives 0 rerecord, so I've written there the number I like.

DarkKobold: The rerecord count should be set to zero, so it doesn't mess with statistics. Otherwise, claiming.

DarkKobold: Accepting, as this run was amazingly entertaining and fun. The majority also agree that the final ten seconds should be left in, so the run will be accepted as is.
Now, this run will obsolete the SNES run, for two reasons:
  1. There isn't much difference between the NES and SNES version. While the SNES has much better graphics, it lacks the glitches that make this run more entertaining. I doubt that there is reason to have runs of both NES and SNES on this site, and thus, the NES wins.
  2. It is evident in the previous SNES run that it is one player playing two characters - the characters either move in an identical fashion, or mirror image, during the majority of the run. It lacks any of the play that this had, and uses the same moveset for the entirety of the run. The play-around in this new movie is much better, all around.

Brandon: Publication underway.

Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11270
Location: RU
It stays the same, 17:49.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
mklip2001
He/Him
Editor
Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 2224
Location: Georgia, USA
I think this is pretty good as is. The extra 10 seconds adds a nice touch with what would otherwise be just standing still. Anyway, you asked which deaths seemed out of place. I rewatched this and made a list of the deaths which didn't seem to save time and didn't look like they were purely speed-entertainment tradeoffs. Frame counts are very approximate. Frame 17200 - Stage 2: Billy dies on the motorbike. 33600 - Stage 3-3: Billy dies from electricity on a rope. 41000 - Stage 4-1: Pimple dies in the spaceship. 52000 - Stage 5: Pimple dies during some flying antics. 55200 - Stage 5: Pimple dies before fighting Robo-Manus. 62000 - Stage 7: Billy dies before the Dark Queen appears.
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically. Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.) Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html) Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature! Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
Skilled player (1404)
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1977
Location: Making an escape
mklip2001 wrote:
Anyway, you asked which deaths seemed out of place. I rewatched this and made a list of the deaths which didn't seem to save time and didn't look like they were purely speed-entertainment tradeoffs. Frame counts are very approximate. Frame 17200 - Stage 2: Billy dies on the motorbike. 33600 - Stage 3-3: Billy dies from electricity on a rope. 41000 - Stage 4-1: Pimple dies in the spaceship. 52000 - Stage 5: Pimple dies during some flying antics. 55200 - Stage 5: Pimple dies before fighting Robo-Manus. 62000 - Stage 7: Billy dies before the Dark Queen appears.
I like my heroes flawed, so I feel compelled to say I approve of these deaths. Ties back into my previous post. Honestly, nigh untouchable heroes doing everything perfectly gets real boring after a while.
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11270
Location: RU
17200 - Stage 2: Billy dies on the motorbike. - For fun. 33600 - Stage 3-3: Billy dies from electricity on a rope. - To minimize collision detection & this terrible lag. 41000 - Stage 4-1: Pimple dies in the spaceship. - Several deaths prevented sooting delay. 52000 - Stage 5: Pimple dies during some flying antics. - 2 dynamites thrown at once caused 60 frames of lag. Now much less. 55200 - Stage 5: Pimple dies before fighting Robo-Manus. - As he hits Robo-Manus, he then doesn't have time to jump high enough before the shock animation, when he is falling down. He would die after this hit anyway. 62000 - Stage 7: Billy dies before the Dark Queen appears. - For fun.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Player (147)
Joined: 11/27/2004
Posts: 688
Location: WA State, USA
Voting yes for making the game's subtitle hilariously inaccurate.
Nach wrote:
I also used to wake up every morning, open my curtains, and see the twin towers. And then one day, wasn't able to anymore, I'll never forget that.
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11270
Location: RU
What do you mean?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
The Ultimate Team apparently is so ultimate that it's more interested in fighting itself than the enemies.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Patryk1023
He/Him
Joined: 3/1/2011
Posts: 288
Location: Inside out house.
Wow, really good run! Of course, yes vote! But errr... when you will do a run using rerecords, slow down and frame advance?
<Nach> scrimpy is fretty with her sunglasses on I'm here. never visible.
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11270
Location: RU
Patryk1023 wrote:
Wow, really good run! Of course, yes vote! But errr... when you will do a run using rerecords, slow down and frame advance?
I'm still waiting for some magic that would allow using TAS Edit on other platforms. This run is summoned to show that it is worth doing.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Brandon
He/Him
Editor, Player (190)
Joined: 11/21/2010
Posts: 913
Location: Tennessee
feos wrote:
Brandon wrote:
That said, there might be some actual tradeoffs here. For example, in the second to last boss battle, why did you throw the toad when he could have been used to kill the boss faster? That might have been able to save some actual time. I'm sure there are other examples like this. Could you explain this? P.S. I wish I took up your offer to potentially co-author this thing, but I probably would have gotten in your way. :\
These thoughts aren't clear for me. Rephrase please. EDIT: Added "Bosses" section.
When you're killing the Shadow Boss, you kill the toad player. It's my understanding that you can hurt him faster if you hit him with both players. Why would you kill him, then?
All the best, Brandon Evans
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11270
Location: RU
Answered your question by expanding the Shadow Boss comment in submission.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
fruitbane
He/Him
Joined: 3/28/2005
Posts: 216
Why this particular version and not the SNES or Genesis version? Just curious...
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11270
Location: RU
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
fruitbane
He/Him
Joined: 3/28/2005
Posts: 216
Yeah, I read that post. I don't feel like it's really much of an explanation, but perhaps I'm missing some context. OK, so the others are ports. They might eliminate some of the lag with sound effects, for example, allowing for some of the more excessive attacks to be used.
Skilled player (1670)
Joined: 6/11/2006
Posts: 818
Location: Arboga, Sweden
Sweet run. I approve.
Warp wrote:
omg lol this is so fake!!!1 the nes cant produce music like this!
Joined: 5/14/2011
Posts: 8
Yes vote.
Post subject: Movie published
TASVideoAgent
They/Them
Moderator
Joined: 8/3/2004
Posts: 14884
Location: 127.0.0.1
This movie has been published. The posts before this message apply to the submission, and posts after this message apply to the published movie. ---- [1810] NES Battletoads & Double Dragon: The Ultimate Team "2 players" by feos in 17:41.14
Joined: 11/20/2004
Posts: 236
Location: United States
Alright. I feel compelled to defend my vote on this movie, since it's the first and only vote at this moment. Simply put, I voted 10 on technical aspect because I just couldn't find anything wrong with any part of how this game was played. And believe me... I tried to find something to complain about, something to nitpick, something that just simply did not belong. I couldn't. As for the entertainment value? Well... if you have to ask, you clearly haven't watched the video, now have you? I don't give 10s. I never give 10s. Much less, do I give two 10s. But this movie? 10s across the board from me. feos, you have created, in my opinion, the NES TAS of the year, hands down. Thank you for putting so much work into this. And that's all I have to say about tha-tuh.
I'm not that hard to find... if you know where to look. -=( http://jolikmc.tumblr.com )=-
Banned User, Former player
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
Joseph Collins wrote:
Simply put, I voted 10 on technical aspect because I just couldn't find anything wrong with any part of how this game was played. And believe me... I tried to find something to complain about, something to nitpick, something that just simply did not belong. I couldn't.
Note that it's not about "if you can't find any objection, you must vote 10". Not all games lend themselves for a perfect technical score for the simple reason that awesome technical feats are not possible (eg. because the game is too straightforward and bug-free). That's not to say this game doesn't deserve a 10 (I liked it too). Just clarifying.
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11270
Location: RU
Joseph Collins: Thank you man. I was just trying to show ALL the potential of this masterpiece game. Now I hardly can find another one, that would be so much suitable for a good TAS.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
NitroGenesis
He/Him
Editor, Experienced player (551)
Joined: 12/24/2009
Posts: 1873
Any reason why feos ain't a player? Edit: He got his points.
YoungJ1997lol wrote:
Normally i would say Yes, but thennI thought "its not the same hack" so ill stick with meh.
Brandon
He/Him
Editor, Player (190)
Joined: 11/21/2010
Posts: 913
Location: Tennessee
NitroGenesis wrote:
Any reason why feos ain't a player?
No idea why my linking of the forum account didn't go through. Now he is.
All the best, Brandon Evans
Joined: 11/20/2004
Posts: 236
Location: United States
Warp wrote:
Note that it's not about "if you can't find any objection, you must vote 10". Not all games lend themselves for a perfect technical score for the simple reason that awesome technical feats are not possible (eg. because the game is too straightforward and bug-free).
Oooooh... I think I understand. It's like, for example, most versions of Pac-Man (the first one, not any of the remakes or ports) would probably get an average or above-average score, since there's not a whole lot you can do with the game except possibly manipulate how the ghosts scoot around, whereas a game like this, there's a crap ton of little things that require a very keen attention to detail, in order to manipulate effectively all at the same time. (Who has what enemy's attention, where one player goes while the other is smashing that Giblet or Linda in the face, etc. etc.) I think I have a better idea as to what that Technical Quality score is for now. Admittedly, up until now, I've just been basing my vote for that category on how effectively the game was played more than how effectively the game was manipulated vs. how hard it is to do so. Thank you for explaining the difference!
I'm not that hard to find... if you know where to look. -=( http://jolikmc.tumblr.com )=-
Banned User, Former player
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
Well, it is explained in more detail at http://tasvideos.org/VotingGuidelines.html
TAG
He/Him
Joined: 2/9/2014
Posts: 407
Location: In Oblivion
I loved it. 10/10.
I’m sorry. Really I am... I am so sorry for what I did. Forgive me.