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Joined: 4/18/2011
Posts: 6
Location: Missouri, USA
I may have found a glitch that will save some time on this run. Earlier this evening, I was messing around in Chapter 3. I was experimenting with a walk-through-walls glitch that allowed me to access the special armor shop in Endor; I bought some Metal Babble Armor for Taloon. Anyways, I figured I could make some quick money selling the armor back to the castle vendor in Bonmalmo. I still had the armor equipped at this point. Guess what? I got paid (18,000+ GP) and the game didn't removed the armor from my inventory! I ended up maxing out my money and bypassed having to go hunt for Broad Swords and Half Plate armors. I haven't tested this out with any other armors, but if this works, I could see this cutting out a huge chunk of time in Chapter 3. [BTW, I was using Nester J 0.51b.]
Lex
Joined: 6/25/2007
Posts: 732
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
WOAH. Can you consistently reproduce it? If so, please record an input movie of it in FCEUX! By the way, I don't know about the walk through walls glitch you mentioned. Please show me that too if possible. ;o
Joined: 4/18/2011
Posts: 6
Location: Missouri, USA
I'm going back through Chapter 3 to experiment with it some more. Unfortunately, I don't know how to record input movies yet. The best I could do is send Adelikat (or anyone else that's interested) my save state files. I have NO IDEA how a walk-through-walls bug popped up in my game. I noticed that it began on one of my save states during Chapter 5, when my party was going through the last part of the Final Cave (the Castle Tower). The bug itself is kind of bizarre. After "reseting" the emulator on the bugged save state, I'll begin Chapter 1. The bug will work fine with Ragnar up to the point where he re-unites Alex with his wife in Izmit village. After Alex's wife leaves Ragnar's party, the bug disappears. The game plays normally up until a certain point in Chapter 2. After Alena's party successfully defeats the Chameleon Humanoid, the walk-through-walls bug is re-activated! This allowed me to cut straight into Endor; where I leveled up Alena and eventually won the tournament. It (obviously) works in Chapter 3 as well. All you have to do is work a whole day at the boss's shop in Lakanaba. After you re-gain control of Taloon, the bug appears again. That's the weird thing about it. Its like it "switches" ON/OFF whenever either an NPC leaves the party, some kind of forced event happens, or you lose/re-gain control of a character. It might be useful for someone to check the game's code to see what's going on. So yeah, if anyone wants a copy of my save states, I'm happy to send them out. I'm moving off to a university tommorow, so my free time will likely wind up on the endagered species list, lol.
Lex
Joined: 6/25/2007
Posts: 732
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Instead of offering to send them to people, just post them here. :P
Dwedit
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Joined: 3/24/2006
Posts: 692
Location: Chicago
Make sure you didn't suddenly end up with cheats enabled by mistake.
Joined: 2/27/2011
Posts: 69
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Apostle wrote:
That's the weird thing about it. Its like it "switches" ON/OFF whenever either an NPC leaves the party, some kind of forced event happens, or you lose/re-gain control of a character. It might be useful for someone to check the game's code to see what's going on.
I agree with double checking for Game Genie codes or something like that :P If it's just an NPC leaving the party, what about when you get Tom's dog? He'll leave and switch off the bug.. But it seems too weird that such a bug exists and especially only intermittently like that, but by all means, check it out. Is "lose/regain" control of a character or forced event something that happens when the King of Endor walks over to you and talks to you after reading the Prince's note? If this bug is real, there would need to be a list made of bug toggle events..
Skilled player (1651)
Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 2202
Location: Killjoy
There is a Japanese run that finishes the game in 1:52:31 on nico video http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm6316849 http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm6305143 http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm6306438 http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm6307243 http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm6344030 These aren't in the correct order. I can't translate worth a crap, sorry. Anyway, this pretty much blows adelikat's & my plan out of the water. He does some ridiculously powerful things with Taloon. It may be the same author that has also done Dragon Quest II and Dragon Quest III, which are also better runs than what is on tasvideos.org. adelikat and I would have to go back a chapter, and basically copy what he did - I only caught a few mistakes watching it.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Joined: 4/18/2011
Posts: 6
Location: Missouri, USA
@Lex
Instead of offering to send them to people, just post them here. :P
Lol, that'll work. Can I upload them directly on this forum, or can you recommend a website to upload them to? (I noticed others using something called "dehacked.2y.net"; would that work?) @ PKFC Yes, it does "toggle" when Tom's dog joins/leaves your party, but not when King Endor nor Prince Bonmalmo hand you their notes. I'm pretty sure no cheats are activated. I've looked online for a while now for a legit WTW's game genie code for this game and haven't been able to find one.
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
Yeah, Microstorage (a.k.a. "the DeHackEd site") is the recommended way to distribute input files.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Joined: 4/18/2011
Posts: 6
Location: Missouri, USA
@ Derakon I appreciate the help. I don't know how to make input files with the NES, though. Anyways, here's a link for everyone to download the savestates: http://www.mediafire.com/?v9uqje10d4ldg -Savestate 1 is in Chapter 5 in the Final Cave -Savestate 6 is in Chapter 3 inside Balmanmo Castle The money bug only seems to work with Metal Babble Armor; possibly since it's such a high gold amount? Also, you can do some crazy things in Taloon's chapter. To list a few examples, I've crossed through the Northern Checkpoint past Endor into the Santeem region where I was encountering VERY STRONG sea creatures such as the Runamok Albacore and the Plesiosaur (sp?). You can also fight in the Endor tournament again as Taloon! The game still treats this part as if it's Chapter 2, and it's a lot tougher without Alena's iron claw dealing out massive damage. Who knows, maybe somebody can figure out what causes this bug...
Joined: 2/27/2011
Posts: 69
Location: Calgary, Alberta
DarkKobold wrote:
There is a Japanese run that finishes the game in 1:52:31 on nico video http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm6344030 http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm6305143 http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm6306438 http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm6307243 http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm6316849 These are in the correct order. ... It may be the same author that has also done Dragon Quest II and Dragon Quest III, which are also better runs than what is on tasvideos.org.
I have no nico account so yeah... According to the page below, he has a DQI,II and IV run. I in 18:39.48, II in 46:06 and IV in 1:52:31.52. This site has I in 17:47.74, II in 46:25 and IV in 2:09:06.58. http://sgst.sakura.ne.jp/tas/view.php?key=narimasa&player=on&sfc=on&fc=on&gb=on&64=on&ps=on&md=on&others=on&mode=search I guess that's a Japanese TAS site from the looks of things :P Google Translate being my friend and my own internal engrish translator says his summary for the DQIV video mentions Balloon bugs as well as a method of glitching through doors to not need to get all 8 party members... Sounds like a very different run.. So far, I can't find an fcm or replay file for that DQIV run. The big question in my mind is what are the differences between the J and U games? Text speed (a la OoT) should be able the same, but I doubt it's been analysed. The theory goes that bugs get fixed when games get translated into English so I don't know whether or not the same bugs would be present. I have to leave that analysis to more capable hands...
Player (137)
Joined: 9/18/2007
Posts: 389
PKFC wrote:
I have no nico account so yeah...
You can watch all those videos without an account if you replace nicovideo.jp with nicozon.net
Editor, Expert player (2072)
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 3282
DarkKobold wrote:
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm6316849 http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm6305143 http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm6306438 http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm6307243 http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm6344030 These aren't in the correct order. I can't translate worth a crap, sorry.
Oh, come on. It even says (1/5), (2/5), ..., on them.
Skilled player (1651)
Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 2202
Location: Killjoy
FractalFusion wrote:
Oh, come on. It even says (1/5), (2/5), ..., on them.
Oops, I had copied them from the search, I didn't open them. Sorry.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Joined: 1/4/2011
Posts: 35
While I wait for my updated SDA run to be posted, I checked out the 1:52:31.52 run and here's some differences that I noticed: Chapter 1: At night in Izmit, Ragnar talked to the kid outside the school instead of Alex. During both suicides, Ragnar used a critical on himself and a hit from the enemy to die. Chapter 2: Chameleon Humanoid battle done quicker. (3 turns) Alena doesn't level up via a Metal Slime before the tournament. Chapter 3: Taloon gets a Broad Sword drop at the beginning instead of Chain Mail. I'm not sure what happened with the gathering of equipment inside the cave and the selling at the armor seller in Bonmalmo, but it looked different. Taloon got the Broad Sword and Half Plate drops outside Endor instead of Lakanaba, saved two Wings. Chapter 4: Didn't notice any differences here, maybe a quicker suicide in the cave west of Kievs? Chapter 5: Doesn't get the free coins in the cave, doesn't buy a Wizard Ring with said coins. Various path changes after getting the ship The hero goes to the shrine south of Endor to fight a Metal Babble and level up enough to learn Outside for the Padequia cave. Doesn't use Alena and Ragnar at all (suicides them ASAP). Abuses Taloon by giving him Ragnar's Sword of Malice (I think?) and letting him destroy bosses by building up strength and letting his merchant army unleash three double-powered critical hits at everything. It was definitely interesting to watch (although difficult since it wasn't English). Did I miss anything?
Joined: 1/4/2011
Posts: 35
My updated run on SDA was just posted with a time of 4:52. Check it out: http://speeddemosarchive.com/DragonWarrior4.html
adelikat
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Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
Very nice :)
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
Joined: 1/4/2011
Posts: 35
Thanks, adelikat. Were you still working on an improvement to the DWIV TAS? Did you ever get the de-synch problems fixed? Did you have improvements in mind when you were going through the second version of the TAS? In any case, I did want to thank you for the current TAS from which I used some ideas for my unassisted runs. Without the TAS, I'm confident my run would not be as fast as it is.
adelikat
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Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3571)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
I've taken another stab at improving my published movie. Here is a video of the first 4 chapters completed. I'm over 2 minutes ahead of the published movie. Much of the improvement comes from the ability to automate luck manipulation as opposed to back in the days of using fceu .12. I've written a suite of bots that have aided in having better luck manipulation. Things like getting max damage critical hits, as opposed to just critical hits. Also, the ability to greatly reduce delay times. My previous attempt was over 100k rerecords, almost all of which are luck manipulation. This time around the bot attempts (not in the rerecord count) are in the millions already. In addition to luck manipulation, I've made a lot of route improvements. For instance, talking to the boy in chapter 1 instead of the man in jail to learn his name. Chapter 3 has a vastly improved route as well. One thing worth noting is you will hear a lot of "bumping into the wall sounds". It doesn't cost time, but I think it seems a little sloppy. I can happen without losing time if you press the button at the first non-lag frame to change direction. I try to avoid it just because it feels sloppy but TASing with the sound down I have mistakenly left a few in. Anyway, let me know what you think! This is a grueling process and a huge undertaking but at least I've managed 4 chapters. I hope to be able to stick with it this time and complete it. It has been over 10 years since the published movie, its amazing how much more I know, and how much the tools have improved since then.
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
mklip2001
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Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 2227
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I just popped over to the forums and saw your recent post, adelikat. I haven't had a chance to watch the movie, but I wholeheartedly encourage an improvement on this movie! This game always felt like one of the more watchable RPGs on the site with the character variety and fairly straightforward goals. I'm not too picky about wall-bumping sounds. It throws a little variety into the music. Besides, it's sort of cool to know that you can bump walls without losing time. If you can finish this, consider it a testament to the power of improved TAS tools and techniques.
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically. Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.) Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html) Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature! Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
Ambassador, Experienced player (708)
Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
Very nice luck manipulation. In chapter 2 some actions have noticeable delay but the odds are long and the result is well worth it in comparison to the current run. Even in suicide you are much more efficient. Chapter 3 looks fantastic and clearly meticulously planned to take advantage of the numerous tricks available to the quintessential trickster Taloon. I wondered if eating his lunch might be faster than discarding it but either one is definitely faster than selling it as the current run does.
Lex
Joined: 6/25/2007
Posts: 732
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
The wall-bumping sounds are pro! I think of it like Mario jumping backwards in SMB: something that seems like it should lose time but somehow doesn't. I'm watching the first part and I'm excited for chapter 5, adelikat!
Lex
Joined: 6/25/2007
Posts: 732
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
I watched it. The first 4 chapters were awesome! It was so satisfying seeing you get the maximum price for the full plate armor in chapter 3. I'm surprised it took so many frames to get a decent price for the half plate armor. Was that really the minimum? That's crazy!
adelikat
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Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
So this has been grueling and slow going but I just finished the Keeleon fight with a radical new strategy. Something I missed last time around is that when a character builds power, that 2x damage is also applied if you score a s critical hit. This let do some savings in the lighthouse fight as hector was able to build power then attack and do a 1 hit kill. Same number of turns for him but only 1 damage animation (so saves a second or so). However, the big implication here is that this makes Taloon a wrecking ball. He can build power then summon reinforcements for three 2x critical hit attacks in one round! With this in mind I actually kill off even Alena, and I plan to kill off Ragnar as well. I think the optimal strat is to have a duo of the Hero for getting Zenithian equipment and return/outside spells and Taloon for massive attacks. This was minimally useful for Keeleon but should become massively useful as he levels up. At the end of the Keeleon fight, I am 11,013 frames ahead of my published movie.
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
Ambassador, Experienced player (708)
Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
That's actually pretty good progress. Would you have done anything differently in the first three chapters if you knew Alena and Ragnar were staying down in favor of Taloon? Fewer levelup stats?
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