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Posted: 6/8/2005 7:16 AM
Post subject: Gargoyle's Quest II
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Xaphan
Former player
Joined: 5/24/2005
Posts: 405
Location: France
I'm planning to do a TA of this game, i've already tried it and it looked smooth... I think that i'm going to continue it soon... I love this game (I remember the GB version of it)... If you have any tips or hints about this game... :)
Not dead yet... still very busy... damn...
Posted: 10/23/2005 3:38 PM
Post subject: Gargoyle's Quest II
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Maximus
Emulator Coder, Former player
Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 563
Location: Toronto, Ontario
I'm starting a run of GQII, but seeing as there's a lot of overworld navigation and wading thorugh dialogue, i've got a WIP of the first level done so far and i'm not sure if this'll make for an interesting movie. If anyone want's to check it out, it's <a href="http://www.stoptheban.ca/etc/Gargoyle's Quest II - The Demon Darkness (U).fcm">here</a> Lemme know if you've got any suggestions or if I should keep going with this one :)
TAS Movie Editor v0-12-1 http://sourceforge.net/projects/tas-editor
Posted: 3/1/2012 2:41 AM
Post subject: Gargoyle's Quest II
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goofydylan8
Experienced player (520)
Joined: 11/2/2010
Posts: 359
Gargoyle's Quest II is the sequel to the Gameboy game Gargoyle's Quest, both of which exist within the Ghost n' Goblins franchise. Here is my first WIP of this game. I am going to start the boss over and see if a little more aggressive battling will speed that portion up. I am hoping the run could be done in around a half hour but I am not completely sure. Feedback would be greatly appreciated.
Posted: 3/1/2012 11:19 PM
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NitroGenesis
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Joined: 12/24/2009
Posts: 1873
Hi there, broseph. Already a thread for this game. http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2448&highlight=gargoyle#34727 I am looking forward to your run. I tried TASing this game once. Nach said the Game Boy game is very improvable. Maybe you could try that, if you were willing to go to a different console.
YoungJ1997lol wrote:
Normally i would say Yes, but thennI thought "its not the same hack" so ill stick with meh.
Posted: 3/3/2012 2:50 AM
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goofydylan8
Experienced player (520)
Joined: 11/2/2010
Posts: 359
I seem to be pretty terrible at searching on this forum. If you search for "gargoyle" in NES it appears as one of the first few results so this is pretty unforgivable. At least it was a 7 year old post with only 1 comment so not too much was lost by creating a new thread. When you had initially tried TAS'ing did you get to the point of any WIP I could see to compare to? If not its fine. I might try moving onto the Game Boy one since that was the run that inspired me to do this one. Problem is that I have only ever TAS'ed with TAS Editor so I can't even begin to understand how people can TAS without it. I have seen that there is a sort of old on its own version of TAS Editor out there that is compatible with GB files so I might see how that works and give it a try. Anyways, here is my updated WIP. This one gets to a little less than half way through and I still am on pace to finish is a half hour or less but I will have to see how the rest of the game goes. This game is not too hard to go through as the overworld portion is almost impossible to be suboptimal as there is zero lag and it only records input every few frames so it is really easy to get the best route. The issue is the scrolling platformer sections as they have ridiculous large amounts of lag. This is the reason why when there is nothing else going on the character just remains stationary as if you move at all when there is an enemy or some other moving object on screen it is almost guaranteed that extra lag frames will be introduced. Also due to the lag for each enemy it needs to be tested if it is faster to avoid them or kill them. Sometimes shooting them eliminates them fast enough that future lag caused by the enemy on screen is removed so it is net faster, but sometimes the projectile being on screen introduces a ton of lag making it net slower. Due to the crazy amounts of lag hex-editing is nearly impossible so if time savers are found early on in the run I will most likely have to start over or at very least heavily edit the rest of the run to make it sync.
Posted: 3/3/2012 3:15 AM
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Inzult
Active player (435)
Joined: 9/27/2004
Posts: 650
Location: Canada
NES TAS of 2021
goofydylan8 wrote:
lag
This is the exact reason I quickly gave up on this title. I'd love to see a TAS though, so best of luck to you!
Posted: 3/7/2012 7:33 AM
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goofydylan8
Experienced player (520)
Joined: 11/2/2010
Posts: 359
And here is the final version. In the end the run ended up being a little less than 29 minutes so I managed to beat a half hour like I wanted. This lag in this game is ridiculous. I did my best with it and would like to hear what you guys think. Hopefully it looks good because any change, even if the level ends at the same time it causes desyncs throughout the entire run. I am slightly disappointed with the look of the final boss as there are so many attacks being fired so I cannot get too close and the moving to avoid the attacks introduces more lag. The other issue was that the weapon that is used on the last boss is the only weapon that causes any damage to him but it is also the only one that can have one shot on screen at a time so having to destroy his attacks doesn't just waste a shot but also causes you to wait longer to fire.
Posted: 3/9/2012 8:16 AM
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goofydylan8
Experienced player (520)
Joined: 11/2/2010
Posts: 359
Here I go again. In hindsight restarting this run was definitely necessary. This is going to be much faster and I am almost embarrassed that I thought that other run was good enough. I am no where near the point that people have suggested improvements and I have already completely obsoleted the run. Here is WIP 4. It gets up to the first boss, Nagus, in 02:27.33 which is already a 00:06.00 second improvement. I decided that now that I know the route I would focus more on reducing lag as much as possible and through killing extra enemies and choosing frames to not move right I was able to save a large amount of time (I told you guys there was a ton of lag). With any luck savings like this will persist and then enough time will be removed so that those who voted (or would have voted) meh will instead vote yes. As always let me know what you think.
Posted: 3/9/2012 9:38 AM
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mklip2001
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Editor
Joined: 6/23/2009
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Location: Georgia, USA
Nice, you even improved the jumps to Argob's Pot! THIS is really looking like a true TAS of the game! It didn't feel to me like there were significant pauses when you weren't moving right (I watched at full speed though). This is also significantly more entertaining watching you shoot a bunch more enemies, as watching almost becomes a game of guessing which enemies you'll actually kill. I also notice you took damage. In this case, it actually looked pretty slick! There's a gold vial in that first stage that gives you a bonus life heart, but it's pretty far out of the way... I don't think you'd save anywhere close to enough time from damage boosts to justify getting the gold vial. Great work, and keep it up!
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically. Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.) Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html) Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature! Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
Posted: 3/9/2012 4:15 PM
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Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
Wow, 6 seconds already? That's impressive! Good luck with the rest of the run!
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Posted: 3/10/2012 7:23 PM
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goofydylan8
Experienced player (520)
Joined: 11/2/2010
Posts: 359
I am officially embarrassed by my previous submission. I can't even explain how I did so bad. I am 1/4th of the way through the run now and I have saved 00:20.40 seconds. If I maintained the savings through the run the final time would be 27 minutes and 35 seconds so at very least it is almost guaranteed to be less than 28 minutes. Hell, excluding taking some damage that I didn't do in the previous attempt, I haven't even used the advice given yet and I have saved this much time so it potentially could be a low estimate. Here is the breakdown so far. Saved 1 frame getting the vial in the training center simply through better jumps. Saved 359 frames in Etruria after the training center through better jumping and taking some damage but this was 90% lag reduction from smarter shooting of enemies. Saved 2 frames on boss 1. These were through better positioning for the last shot so that I could leave the stage on the first possible frame. Lost 1 frame fighting the ghouls. I spent a while trying to fix this but I can't. Due to the random x and y velocities while jumping I have to hold jump for an extra frame to reach the proper height to hit the first ghoul, which loses me 1 pixel moving right so I lose a frame. Saved 6 frames crossing th broken bridge. This was due to better lag management. Saved 65 frames crossing the river of flame. This resulted from better jumping and flying on the floating platforms which meant my x-velocity was maximized. Finally 792 frames saved in Hinom Forest. This was due to better jumping, taking damage which saved a lot of time off of waiting, reduced a lot of lag and the luck was improved. EDIT So I just figured out how health worked since I hadn't died in my previous run and hadn't tested it out. After you beat each boss (possibly after you get a new item but I know it is after the bosses die) your health completely refills so I can use 1 more health boost before the first boss and 1 more before the second boss, and I have a spot where I have to wait in both of those cases so expect even more improvements.
Posted: 3/11/2012 2:52 AM
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mklip2001
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Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 2227
Location: Georgia, USA
Oh yeah, health refills after bosses. (It may even refill when you complete stages without bosses, like the river of flame... it's worth checking.) As for this new WIP, things look pretty good! (with the exception of the new damage-taking opportunities you mention). One comment, though, is that you're sometimes bumping walls in the overworld. Is that deliberate?
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically. Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.) Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html) Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature! Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
Posted: 3/11/2012 3:34 AM
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goofydylan8
Experienced player (520)
Joined: 11/2/2010
Posts: 359
mklip2001 wrote:
As for this new WIP, things look pretty good! (with the exception of the new damage-taking opportunities you mention). One comment, though, is that you're sometimes bumping walls in the overworld. Is that deliberate?
Not deliberate but didn't try to avoid it. I didn't even realize the noise occurred when hitting walls until watching the youtube encode as I spend most of the time with my computers audio off. It doesn't slow you down or cause you to stop so it doesn't hurt the time of the run but if it makes it appear suboptimal I can change it as the overworld is almost impossible to make suboptimal.
Posted: 3/11/2012 4:44 AM
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Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
I'd suggest making it intentional whether or not you hit walls. That is, if you hit a wall, hit a lot of walls (like, all the ones possible in a given region), as a way to add some variety into the overworld. Or if you don't think that's a good idea, just don't hit them at all. Hitting them occasionally does seem bad even though it doesn't cost any time.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Posted: 3/12/2012 3:32 PM
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1254)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
NES TAS of 2011
Saved you 14 frames lol. http://rghost.ru/36985881 It frustrated me extremely that you wait while the enemy passes. The first input change that came to my mind manipulated him to vanish much faster. Just open the project, it's set to the first frame of difference. I have an advice for you for future.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 3/12/2012 5:44 PM
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goofydylan8
Experienced player (520)
Joined: 11/2/2010
Posts: 359
feos wrote:
Saved you 14 frames lol. http://rghost.ru/36985881 It frustrated me extremely that you wait while the enemy passes. The first input change that came to my mind manipulated him to vanish much faster. Just open the project, it's set to the first frame of difference. I have an advice for you for future.
It wasn't actually set to where the input started but if the saved time referred to avoiding the one eyed flying thing in Eturia without having to stop then thanks but I found that already. As I said I redid the first level since the last WIP as I discovered I can take more damage on each level and finding that was a side effect. If you have any other ideas let me know.
Posted: 3/12/2012 5:51 PM
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1254)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
NES TAS of 2011
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 3/12/2012 5:58 PM
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goofydylan8
Experienced player (520)
Joined: 11/2/2010
Posts: 359
feos wrote:
That is what I figured. Yeah, I found that going back through. Unless I am mistaken my newest version (which isn't posted yet because I want to get at least back to the point of my previous WIP) should remove almost all (or all) instances of stopping to avoid an enemy so that I can use up all of the damage boosts. UPDATE/EDIT So here is the WIP I was talking about. This is the most different version from the original posted run as damage is used to a great extent. This run is 5.25 minutes into the run and I have saved 00:14.15 seconds from the original run and I have saved 00:06.95 seconds from the previous WIP that I have posted. The biggest time saver is a huge shortcut on the level before the first boss. I damage boost up and over the wall of spikes removing a chunk of the level. Other savings are I am able to save the frame I had previously lost on the three ghouls. I saved 20 extra frames on the first boss through getting the boss to land (and stay) on the left platform. I save 2 extra frames on the broken bridge (I don't know if this is due to lag or better jumping, but regardless they are saved). Finally 34 extra frames are saved in the river of flames (Again not sure where these frames are saved as I redid the level. Simply a closer attention to detail reduced lag and wasted frames on the jumps.)
Posted: 3/13/2012 12:44 AM
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Sonikkustar
Skilled player (1326)
Joined: 9/7/2007
Posts: 1354
Location: U.S.
Sega TASer of 2021 Sega TAS of 2021 Sega TASer of 2011 Sega TAS of 2011
Just wanted to tune in to say that that is a very awesome WIP. Looking foward to more.
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Posted: 3/13/2012 9:53 PM
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mklip2001
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Spectacular. The spike shortcut is really clever, and it's quite impressive that you clear the top side with just a little flight power left. The boss fight is also quite good... most times I've ever gotten the boss to that platform in real time have done more harm than good ;-) Keep it up!
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically. Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.) Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html) Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature! Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
Posted: 3/15/2012 9:08 PM
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goofydylan8
Experienced player (520)
Joined: 11/2/2010
Posts: 359
OK this dual creature boss is terrible. I somehow got amazing luck last time because I have now spent 2 days and the absolute fastest time that I can get to is losing 17 frames because when the bosses swoop down they swoop a lot faster this time so I have to use a different strategy. I am 2739 frames ahead up to this point and I haven't lost frames at any point and it is pissing me off that I am losing some here so I am still trying. I know that getting close and attacking one and then getting close and attacking the other is slower but I just can't get this to work. Here is my run so far. I was going to hold out on posting another WIP for a while so that is could be a bigger advancement but whatever. I am going to continue to work on this. If anyone wants to try figure out how to get the bosses to move like they did in the first version it would be nice but I will keep trying.
Posted: 3/16/2012 3:08 AM
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mklip2001
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Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 2227
Location: Georgia, USA
Nice! That was some quick work! Some comments: Night Drop Forest: * I'm surprised it paid off to take damage at the top level instead of taking it near the boss's entrance. It really seems you lose a lot of time at the boss's entrance. * The damage in the slow-rising shaft was really smart. On the way to Desert Sittem: * Isn't it faster to take damage from the first enemy's drop? Desert Sittem: * Glad to see you change weapons in the stage at the start, instead of in the overworld menu like your previous submission. * Nice job getting the first blue bottle to avoid producing a ghost. That obviously helped reduce lag. The second bottle was well-handled too. * What does the missed shot with the Buster do midway through the stage? * WAY better bossfight than your previous run. Nice job keeping him jumping! No comments on the way to the King's Palace or the King's Palace Mt. Imaus: * WAY way better Tornado usage! That was really smooth. * Lol at the path over the spikes to reduce lag ;-) Concerning the dual boss, thanks for trying an approach where you target each individually. Good to know it doesn't work. As for the boss behavior, I vaguely recall that whether these guys do short or fast movements depends on what your y-position is relative to them when their movement pattern starts. After all, I think their fast flights always cause them to end at the same y-position as when they started. Thus, you may be able to get them to go slowly by delaying a jump until they've started a slow descent.
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically. Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.) Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html) Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature! Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
Posted: 3/16/2012 4:25 PM
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goofydylan8
Experienced player (520)
Joined: 11/2/2010
Posts: 359
mklip2001 wrote:
Nice! That was some quick work! Some comments:
Night Drop Forest: It is faster because I cannot find a way to damage boost on the first spike because you can't move fast enough. If I could damage boost on the first spike of the two than it would be faster by about 2 or 3 seconds but I cannot get it to be a damage boost where I move to the left past the spikes. I have found a way to damage boost bast the second one but the number of frames that saves is about 19 frames less than the frames used up due to no longer using the top level damage boost. That could possibly be optimized down to save 10 or so frames but at most it would be a net equal exchange. Thanks. I figured after you said to use the tornado on the rising platform to look for other slow vertical portions because I knew they were prime for huge improvements. On the way to Desert Sittem: This was another case where I couldn't get the damage boost to line up properly. After you are hit you have to wait to land before you can jump up any longer so for damage boosts to work you have to be already above the land you want to get to or the extra pixels gained have to be enough. In that case hitting the bomb dropped on you doesn't gain you enough pixels to land on the platform so what happens is that you hit it and then fall down, attach to the wall and jump up so it ends up being slower. Damage boosts work better when the item you boost off of is permanent (like enemies or spikes, not the shots they fire at you) because it tries to eject you out of danger and it seems that when the shot disappears it no longer tries to shoot you out so you don't gain enough. Desert Sittem: Thanks, I tried to spend a lot of time on this level because there are so many enemies that I have to decide to shoot or avoid. The missed shot manipulates the fish that jumps up to jump behind me. If I don't fire a shot the fish jumps up nearer to the pillar I jump to so I can't avoid him and he never positions himself for a good damage boost. Yeah, overall the boss fights are much more entertaining in my opinion this time through and that is why I am really trying to get the dual bosses to at least equal the previous attempt. No comments on the way to the King's Palace or the King's Palace Mt. Imaus: Thanks. Using tornado better was a really good suggestion. I know. It was unexpected but it ended up working and it looks way more entertaining than just walking on the platforms so it worked out great. Concerning the dual boss: I will try that out. I still haven't been able to get him to work out yet. I have some free time today so I am going to work as hard as I can at it. If I can't beat it faster today I think I am going to call it a wash and lose those 17 frames or hopefully get it down to only losing 5 or 6. I really don't like the idea of losing frames but this dang boss is taking me as long as redoing everything up to this point. Thanks a ton for the feedback. Thanks to your suggestions I will actually be able to make a detailed submission text for once since I have tested so much and have pretty detailed understanding of every aspect of the run. EDIT Got it down to losing 8 frames. I really feel that is the best it is going to be. If someone is really opposed let me know but I honestly have tried a ton of things to be quick as possible.
Posted: 3/18/2012 8:53 AM
(Edited: 3/18/2012 9:15 PM)
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goofydylan8
Experienced player (520)
Joined: 11/2/2010
Posts: 359
Final WIP is here. In total it is 4303 frames ahead of my original run placing it almost 15 seconds under 28 minutes. Let me know if you have any last corrections, otherwise I will be submitting this version.
Posted: 3/18/2012 4:03 PM
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mklip2001
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Editor
Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 2227
Location: Georgia, USA
I'll check it out tonight. You work fast! Also, I'm ok with losing 8 frames on the boss... darn RNG.
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically. Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.) Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html) Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature! Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
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