Posted: 6/18/2012 3:27 PM
Post subject: Request for Starmen
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Nach
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Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
As many of you know, Baxter till now has had the sole responsibility of being the Starman, the one who decides what our recommend movies are. But Baxter has been busy as of late, and aside from minor changes by adelikat or myself, we haven't seen much activity in this area. There really is just too much for one official person, or even three when you count all the administrators. Starred movies should be runs that people new to the site should watch to get an idea what TAS'ing is about and knock their socks off. Ideally ~5% of currently published movies should be starred, but it's hard to make a good list. The list should contain excellent TASs of popular games, excellent TASs that especially standout even for games that aren't so well known. Ideally the platform percentage should be in ratio with the amount of published movies for the platform. Meaning if NES has the most movies on the site, obviously it should have the most stars. But at the same time, platforms with just 5-10 runs should be represented too, just with less stars than our more popular platforms. Starred runs should include both long and short movies. Basically give a good ratio of some of the best movies on our site. Do you think you'd be a good person to help keep the list updated? Are you well respected by most of the community? Do you watch a significant percentage of runs? A Starman should have ideally rated at least 10% of the runs on the site, be familiar with the discussions in the Star Thread, and be active with new movies, having participated in submissions discussions, voting, rating and so on. Above all, he or she should be a team player, willing to go forward in the best interest of the site, and be reasonable in his or her decisions, and able to communicate well with others regarding nominations that come forward. If you became Starman, what changes would you make? We could use at least 5 additions right now to the list of stars, and perhaps move 2 or 3 stars from one run to a similar but more popular run. By similar, I mean switching a star from say one Mario NES game to another if it makes sense, or switch an any% run to a 100% run, or things like that. Anyone up for the job? Anyone willing to throw in some ideas to changes they would make to show their seriousness?
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 6/18/2012 3:54 PM
(Edited: 6/18/2012 6:03 PM)
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11272
Location: RU
NES TAS of 2011
I hate to advertise myself for huge things, but I'd wish to apply some ideas. - Stars must not only represent the mind of community, but also represent the root TAS techniques, like item/HP management. If it's represented PERFECTLY (so much it can be seen for an untrained eye). - Stars shall be given not only to the movies awesome for a newcomer, but also awesome for an experienced person. One can go past a move that contains something fantastic in it, if a star isn't hinting: "Just try reading the submission text and you'd get how amazing this movie is". This leads to writing as detailed submissions as possible, to allow viewers notice what they wouldn't, not knowing of it. - Some percentage of starred movies (total, by platform, by author) is needed, not to abuse the star system (and not to allo ignorence). However, if the first imagined pecentage appears unfair, it can be readjusted. Note: per author list is not to prevent abuse, just for those who are interested. - Stars thread is cool, but starmen shall post in submission threads to see the response if they're not sure. - Starmen shall have movies of a good entertaiment value (not just ratings, but, by common sense, impressive). They must have a good eye on style. EDIT: - As "Innovative TAS" was retired, we shall use stars to mark such runs (by any meaning of the term "innovative"). - Star must by all means shout: "This is just IMPOSSIBLE in real time". EDIT 2: - Starmen need guidelines. EDIT 3: - We may have a popup text when you mousover the movie star, explaining why it was starred (1 sentence). We may even have a page that lists all these descriptions, and allow users to suggest better ones.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 6/18/2012 5:27 PM
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NitroGenesis
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Here are changes I would make. - Give Metal Slug X a star. - Retire Arkanoid's star for Sorcerer's Maze - Give a star to GBA Spider Man 3. - Give UMK3's star to MK64 Endurance Mode.
YoungJ1997lol wrote:
Normally i would say Yes, but thennI thought "its not the same hack" so ill stick with meh.
Posted: 6/18/2012 8:19 PM
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Nach
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
feos wrote:
EDIT 2: - Starmen need guidelines.
Done! Thank you very much for your feedback, I tried to work most of what you said into it.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 6/19/2012 10:06 AM
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Warp
Banned User, Former player
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
Could perhaps a bullet point like this (or something similar) be appropriate? (I'm suggesting this because there's a common misconception about it.) * Starred movies are not a top list of best movies. They are a list of movies that represent what makes TASing so special. (There may of course be overlap between the two, but they are nevertheless not the same thing.)
Posted: 6/19/2012 10:12 AM
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11272
Location: RU
NES TAS of 2011
Define best then.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 6/19/2012 10:16 AM
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Nach
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
feos brings up a good point. "Best" is subjective. In my opinion, it has always been the case that some of our best movies get the stars. However, because of the variety goals, not all of best movies all have a star at the same time. Of course others may have a different idea of what "best" is, and therefore the list is understood to be special in certain areas, but not necessarily the best.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 6/19/2012 10:23 AM
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11272
Location: RU
NES TAS of 2011
Even our 8+ rated movies list doesn't contain some BEST runs. Dont ask me why.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 6/19/2012 10:53 AM
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NitroGenesis
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Editor, Experienced player (551)
Joined: 12/24/2009
Posts: 1873
Maybe because it has a 7.9 rating :-)
YoungJ1997lol wrote:
Normally i would say Yes, but thennI thought "its not the same hack" so ill stick with meh.
Posted: 6/19/2012 10:56 AM
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Noxxa
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feos wrote:
Dont ask me why.
Someone decided to show his opinion and rate a lot of runs? The horror!
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Posted: 6/19/2012 11:09 AM
(Edited: 6/19/2012 11:13 AM)
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11272
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NES TAS of 2011
Because we have unique guy who gives 2 to this, 3 to this and 7 to this. Thus the "popular movies" list is just inaccurate.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 6/19/2012 11:12 AM
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Nach
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
feos wrote:
Because we have unique guy who gives 3 to this and 7 to this. Thus the "popular movies" list is just inaccurate.
People have different opinions. For your information, I gave Darkwing Duck the same rating Grunt did.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 6/19/2012 11:16 AM
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Noxxa
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feos wrote:
Because we have unique guy who gives 3 to this and 7 to this. Thus the "popular movies" list is just inaccurate.
We're only speaking of one person here. The ratings of one single person cannot decide what is popular and what isn't. If it were a fact that one person is sufficiently messing up the ratings, then more people should rate. But really, between the other 20-30 ratings of those movies, his one dissenting vote doesn't matter too much.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Posted: 6/19/2012 11:18 AM
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11272
Location: RU
NES TAS of 2011
Opinions of some people are more objective than other's (some are at all quite random). We can't use "avarage" opinion to detect best movie, that's what I'm saying. This and skipping some 8.0 movies from "popular" list (for no reason) makes this list pointless in my eyes. This list is better in such case, but it has little to do with BEST runs either.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 6/19/2012 5:20 PM
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Warp
Banned User, Former player
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
Nach wrote:
However, because of the variety goals, not all of best movies all have a star at the same time.
Which is my point. To exemplify: Two runs of the same game (using different goals) may be both extremely well-liked and highly rated. However, begin necessarily similar only one of them ought to have a star (if any), not both. Therefore stars do not automatically go to all the TASes that are considered best (using any measurement you want).
Posted: 6/19/2012 5:23 PM
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11272
Location: RU
NES TAS of 2011
In such cases btw, a starman shall look on all branches of the same game from the point of real-time impossibility, when he decides which one better deserves a star. But yes, the other branches may be examples of best too and not have a star. When this happens, we kinda choose best of THE BEST runs.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 6/20/2012 5:28 PM
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11272
Location: RU
NES TAS of 2011
More phylosophy: TASing is trying to make something ideally. In all possible aspects. Thing is far from ideal if it's just better than the others. It can not be judged this way at all. Only the one who HAS the idea of ideal himself can compare things to THIS IDEAL. If they meet it or are really close to it, it deserves a star. And the most important feature of ideal is novelty! Something that really does introduce the unseen. So a starman is the most progressive guy in the whole comunity. And it has no mercy when an expert player doesn't meet the ideal with his run. On the other side, he always notices when a newcomer manages to meet it. All these things aren't esotheric, because ideal is what makes tases tick and blow the audience each time. And the long-term purpose of all that is to encourage players to make tases that meet this ideal, giving the best examples of it. It's like, TEACHING others what true godlikeness is. PS: it's funny how tasing is connected to divinity, not having ANY religious thesises in itself, even standing above them all, since we are about DOING divine things more than speaking of them.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 6/20/2012 6:00 PM
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Nach
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Warp wrote:
Nach wrote:
However, because of the variety goals, not all of best movies all have a star at the same time.
Which is my point. To exemplify: Two runs of the same game (using different goals) may be both extremely well-liked and highly rated. However, begin necessarily similar only one of them ought to have a star (if any), not both. Therefore stars do not automatically go to all the TASes that are considered best (using any measurement you want).
Yes. But those TASes with stars are among the best. To summarize: every starred movie is a top movie, but not every top movie is starred.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 6/20/2012 6:07 PM
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Warp
Banned User, Former player
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
Nach wrote:
To summarize: every starred movie is a top movie, but not every top movie is starred.
In other words, starred movies are not a top best movies list, like I said. They are a list of selected representatives. (In fact, I would go so far as to say that a starred movie is not a top movie by requirement, but because good representatives usually happen to also be top-rated. I wouldn't say it's unthinkable that a more "mediocre" movie would get a star if it shows something peculiar about TASing in a very exemplary manner.)