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Posted: 11/28/2012 1:52 AM
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Carl_Sagan
Experienced player (514)
Joined: 7/23/2011
Posts: 108
TAS of 2013 SNES TAS of 2013 SNES TAS of 2011
Hmm, so I just thought of something. After I'm done with Yoshi's Island 100%, I'll probably continue with the hacks of the game (Kamek's Revenge and 2+2). Unfortunately, I already started both on snes9x 1.43. In fact, the first world of Kamek's Revenge is already done. Will it be a problem to continue to use snes9x 1.43 for those? To be clear, the option is unfortunately between using 1.43 and not doing it at all, as it would take days of work to redo. If I redo the Yoshi's Island any% TAS, however, it will be on Bizhawk.
Posted: 11/28/2012 8:52 AM
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ALAKTORN
He/Him
Former player
Joined: 10/19/2009
Posts: 2527
Location: Italy
DS TAS of 2012
wow days of work, what a tragedy :| can’t it be hexed?
Posted: 11/28/2012 9:42 AM
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Ilari
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1112)
Joined: 5/1/2010
Posts: 1217
Rookie of 2010 New systems TASer of 2010 New systems TAS of 2010
ALAKTORN wrote:
wow days of work, what a tragedy :| can’t it be hexed?
The timing differences are just so great that it is very unlikely to hex worth a damn. And with highly optimized input, hexing taking lag frames into account won't work either (even if it syncs, it likely introduces way more lag than is absolutely needed).
Posted: 11/28/2012 2:01 PM
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1250)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11473
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
NES TAS of 2011
Ilarl: you just failed the 333333 get!!!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 11/28/2012 3:14 PM
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Carl_Sagan
Experienced player (514)
Joined: 7/23/2011
Posts: 108
TAS of 2013 SNES TAS of 2013 SNES TAS of 2011
ALAKTORN wrote:
wow days of work, what a tragedy :| can’t it be hexed?
Yoshi's Island does not hex for crap. We're lucky to hex a single room on the same emulator. The RNG affects too much. Also, assuming you're being sarcastic with "what a tragedy," when I said "days" that was meant to signify the actual time spent working, i.e. days = units of 24 hours of TASing. It's pretty cool to just randomly be a dick to people you don't know over a few sentences of text though :|
Posted: 11/28/2012 4:14 PM
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negative_seven
She/Her
Active player (428)
Joined: 11/25/2012
Posts: 103
Location: Europe
Atari TAS of 2022
*sadface* Oh well, it had to happen.
Posted: 1/22/2013 5:18 PM
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KusogeMan
Experienced player (675)
Joined: 2/5/2012
Posts: 1785
Location: Brasil
can you still submit TASes made with snes9x? lsnes and bizhawk are both a mess to use,they're extremely confusing.
TAS i'm interested: Megaman series, specially the RPGs! Where is the mmbn1 all chips TAS we deserve? Where is the Command Mission TAS? i'm slowly moving away from TASing fighting games for speed, maybe it's time to start finding some entertainment value in TASing.
Posted: 1/22/2013 6:05 PM
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Ilari
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1112)
Joined: 5/1/2010
Posts: 1217
Rookie of 2010 New systems TASer of 2010 New systems TAS of 2010
grassini wrote:
lsnes and bizhawk are both a mess to use,they're extremely confusing.
Can you give some places where lsnes is very confusing?
Posted: 1/22/2013 10:32 PM
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KusogeMan
Experienced player (675)
Joined: 2/5/2012
Posts: 1785
Location: Brasil
i'm sorry,i managed to configure lsnes after some time.I'll go search for how to post WIPs in the forum now.It's the first one i actually wanna show u guys.
TAS i'm interested: Megaman series, specially the RPGs! Where is the mmbn1 all chips TAS we deserve? Where is the Command Mission TAS? i'm slowly moving away from TASing fighting games for speed, maybe it's time to start finding some entertainment value in TASing.
Posted: 1/22/2013 11:55 PM
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creaothceann
He/Him
Editor
Joined: 4/7/2005
Posts: 1874
Location: Germany
lsnes movie files should be convertable to BizHawk movie files (and vice versa), right?
Posted: 1/23/2013 12:09 AM
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Nach
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
creaothceann wrote:
lsnes movie files should be convertable to BizHawk movie files (and vice versa), right?
That's quite problematic. lsnes has a sane input format, whereas BizHawk instead of having input frames decided to record input per video frames. While some videos can be converted, it's not a clean processes.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 1/23/2013 1:51 AM
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Ilari
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1112)
Joined: 5/1/2010
Posts: 1217
Rookie of 2010 New systems TASer of 2010 New systems TAS of 2010
creaothceann wrote:
lsnes movie files should be convertable to BizHawk movie files (and vice versa), right?
Well, in practice, due to rewinding changing timings on bsnes core and the core divergence, the coversion isn't possible (at least without special cores). As for gameboy, the cores should be very similar, but there was a problem that definition of frame didn't (doesn't?) match... And then there's features that the movie formats doesn't support (some are easy to fix, some are hard): - lsnes doesn't support hard power cycling (would be easy to fix in rr2 beta versions, much harder in rr1). - Bizhawk doesn't support subframe resets nor subframe input (not that it does anything in most games).
Posted: 1/30/2013 11:49 AM
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coconou
Joined: 11/21/2012
Posts: 53
Location: France
With my last version of snes9x, the frame advance don't work correctly ans bug. Now i use BizHawk and all goes well.
"Si le mal existe en ce monde, il se cache dans le cœur des hommes." "If there is evil in this world, it lurks in the hearts of man." Edward D. Morrison - Tales of Phantasia
Posted: 4/10/2013 3:35 PM
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hegyak
Editor
Joined: 3/31/2010
Posts: 1466
Location: Not playing Puyo Tetris
Since I started this over here: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=344379#344379 I have to ask, what version(s) of Snes9x are allowed? Because it seems that 1.43 is not. But oddly, a run using 1.51 got accepted despite being submitted beyond the continuance date. Snes9x is listed as Deprecated but the Movie Rules allows Snes9x and ZSNES runs as they are not clearly defined and/or declared as "not accepted." Other emulators have clearly defined rules. Use Version X or better. But Snes9x is the odd emulator in the bunch. The rules are more ambiguous.
When TAS does Quake 1, SDA will declare war. The Prince doth arrive he doth please.
Posted: 4/10/2013 4:37 PM
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1250)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11473
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
NES TAS of 2011
I need more attention to my post in doremi submission, but it got no responds so I'm reposting it here: In cases where you have no detailed rules, you must just observe all possible aspects and make a decision that seems fair. 1. This run does not sync on BizHawk, it has a completely different lag picture in the beginning, I added 8 (!) blank frames to let it pass the title screen and then it desynced on the cutscene skipping. I expect all the movie not to sync throughout. 2. This run met some positive feedback, people want this published. 3. This run is a good improvement over the previous movie (made on the same emulator). 4. This run was started way before the snes9x issue appeared, and was possibly finished before that as well. 5. This run was not suggested for the continuances list. I think it is fair for me to pick this submission as well, as I rejected Chuck Rock due to using a deprecated emulator this run also uses. I also know we have another improvement done on snes9x in the Workbench and we somehow must work out the decision for both of them with no contradiction between the staff. So, using a deprecated but technically still supported emulator is the most important factor, but not the only one. And this site is not about disallowing the creators to share their hard work pieces. In such cases, we must look for enough reasons to make a positive exception. If there are not enough of them, no exception is done particularly. Chuck Rock met no reasons to make a positive exception, in my eyes. This run meets them. Super Turrican submission also seems to meet them. Let's cook some kind of a precedent here, I ask members and staff to examine my logics and respond.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 4/10/2013 7:13 PM
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AnS
Emulator Coder, Experienced player (727)
Joined: 2/23/2006
Posts: 682
My opinion: Accept Snes9x movies only to the Moons/Stars tier, and if the movie is not entertaining enough, do not accept it to the Vault, because Vault is for speedrun records, and the most important property of records is their credibility, so naturally this is where emulation accuracy is relevant. But this means that movie viewers should not vote No because of emulator choice, especially since the poll question only asks about entertainment.
Posted: 4/10/2013 7:28 PM
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Warepire
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Editor
Joined: 3/2/2010
Posts: 2178
Location: A little to the left of nowhere (Sweden)
So you mean accuracy does not matter at all for Moon/Stars movies which are also (mainly) speedruns, just of games that provide a higher level of entertainment?
Posted: 4/10/2013 8:23 PM
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hegyak
Editor
Joined: 3/31/2010
Posts: 1466
Location: Not playing Puyo Tetris
I say that there needs to be a clearly drawn "This is acceptable, this is not," kind of ruling. Like, "Version X or better must be used. Older versions are not accepted anymore." At least bring the SNES emulator rules in line with the other systems. I would prefer to not allow Snes9x runs for any new submission. But I am only a viewer and I don't think I carry much weight with my opinion.
When TAS does Quake 1, SDA will declare war. The Prince doth arrive he doth please.
Posted: 4/11/2013 11:39 AM
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AnS
Emulator Coder, Experienced player (727)
Joined: 2/23/2006
Posts: 682
Warepire wrote:
So you mean accuracy does not matter at all for Moon/Stars movies which are also (mainly) speedruns, just of games that provide a higher level of entertainment?
Accuracy is important in my system of priorities too, just not important enough to reject a good movie if the author e.g. has slow computer or some other reason. I guess you indeed have to be TASer to fully appreciate the labour. People will eventually move from snes9x on their own. I don't see why we have to artificially hasten the process. Do you remember any arguments during Famtasia-to-FCEU transition? Not a single one. So, make them move by providing with better tools, not by enforcing your personal set of priorities.
Posted: 4/11/2013 11:57 AM
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Atma
Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
AnS wrote:
Accuracy is important in my system of priorities too, just not important enough to reject a good movie if the author e.g. has slow computer or some other reason. I guess you indeed have to be TASer to fully appreciate the labour.
Yet when it comes to tasing, system speed is not really relevant, as things are done frame by frame, rather than at full speed. The only real benefits to full speed playback is viewing the (un)finished product, instead of having to dump an avi of it.
People will eventually move from snes9x on their own. I don't see why we have to artificially hasten the process. Do you remember any arguments during Famtasia-to-FCEU transition? Not a single one.
The differences between famtasia and fceu were extremely vast though, so it was basically an incentive in and of itself. I can't help but see people still wanting to use snes9x 1.43 for things like Super Mario World runs, just because the previous runs were done on it and that it's easier to compare an inaccurate emulator to itself than comparing it to an accurate one.
So, make them move by providing with better tools, not by enforcing your personal set of priorities.
That makes me think of people using ie6 despite better browsers being available, simply because it's where their comfort zone lies.
Posted: 4/11/2013 1:17 PM
(Edited: 12/31/2016 2:41 PM)
Post subject: new Snes9x ruling
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Noxxa
They/Them
Moderator, Expert player (4107)
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4089
Location: The Netherlands
Exotic platforms TASer of 2018 Exotic platforms TAS of 2018 Exotic platforms TASer of 2017 Exotic platforms TAS of 2017 Exotic platforms TAS of 2017 Exotic platforms TASer of 2016 Exotic platforms TAS of 2016 Gameboy TASer of 2013
Okay, considering there has been some confusion about the status of snes9x and its versions, here is the new official ruling:
  • Snes9x v1.43 is, as of now, no longer accepted under any circumstances, unless it has been granted a continuance, or if there is proof that the movie was done before January 1st 2013. If a Snes9x 1.43 run is submitted and it's not in the continuances list, nor is there any proof it was done before the cutoff date, it will automatically be rejected.
  • Snes9x v1.51 is still accepted for the time being, although the emulator is still deprecated and will no longer be supported at some point in the future. It is recommended to use lsnes or BizHawk instead.
This should clear up most of the problems. EDIT: The cut-off date rule is no longer valid; snes9x 1.43 submissions are now only acceptable if they are in the list of continuances.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Posted: 4/11/2013 1:36 PM
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1250)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11473
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
NES TAS of 2011
What the hell? People can not into discussion? Who's "decision" it was?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 4/11/2013 1:38 PM
Quote
Noxxa
They/Them
Moderator, Expert player (4107)
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4089
Location: The Netherlands
Exotic platforms TASer of 2018 Exotic platforms TAS of 2018 Exotic platforms TASer of 2017 Exotic platforms TAS of 2017 Exotic platforms TAS of 2017 Exotic platforms TASer of 2016 Exotic platforms TAS of 2016 Gameboy TASer of 2013
feos wrote:
What the hell? People can not into discussion? Who's "decision" it was?
Both Nach and adelikat agreed to this.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Posted: 4/11/2013 1:40 PM
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1250)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11473
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
NES TAS of 2011
And they are both unable to talk to people who ACTUALLY HANDLE the content of their site, right?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 4/11/2013 1:42 PM
Quote
Nach
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
I'm sorry, I was away for a week. Mothrayas: Thanks for holding down the fort.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
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