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Posted: 7/24/2013 9:20 PM
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Warepire
He/Him
Editor
Joined: 3/2/2010
Posts: 2178
Location: A little to the left of nowhere (Sweden)
ktwo wrote:
Great to see someone working on this again. I saw you had trouble bypassing the big enemy on planet 7. I just tried it out and managed to get it after a few tries. I have it recorded (on the U-version). Unfortunately, I don't remember how to upload movies here anymore... If you're still interested, let me know where I can put the fm2-file.
If you log in to the main site (same username and password as the forum), and go here: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/ You shall see a link above "Users with movies" saying "Your movies", from there you can upload any movie (all submittable movie files allowed) / watch file / lua script.
Posted: 7/24/2013 9:28 PM
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ktwo
Active player (251)
Joined: 8/10/2008
Posts: 116
Thanks Warepire. I have uploaded the file now. It's important to note that this was done in real-time just to show the concept of bypassing the enemy in question. It's not meant to be optimized by any means.
Posted: 7/25/2013 2:50 AM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1199)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
Ah, good. A successful attempt gives me some clue in what to try to get things to work. It was clear the sort of troubles I was having, so hopefully I'll get through this part soon. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/8143796602738354 This here is my latest attempt where I kill the darn thing. The time it takes to get past this thing is the time to beat. Judging from the bypass you made, that shouldn't be a tough time to beat if optimized well. There's still the tunnel ahead that looks tricky to navigate well, especially with this weight heavier than the basic thrusters can lift. Most of the terrain below are rather less than ideal to bounce off of, but we'll see how good the angle is after trying the bypass. As for my shopping list, it looks like I will want the double-strength thrusters. If Planet 12's gravity is anything to go by, having less thrust than what is needed to lift my own pod will not let me get far. I don't know the exact benefits of an upgraded jetpod, other than the cheaper one can drag wormholes around and the more expensive one can use them to warp elsewhere.
Posted: 7/25/2013 6:06 AM
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ktwo
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Joined: 8/10/2008
Posts: 116
As for the tunnel ahead, I can see it being troublesome. One trick I found was that by pointing the pod one notch counter-clockwise ("5 to 12") increased the lifting power dramatically compared to "12 o'clock". Of course that would slow down your horizontal speed in the tunnel section, but maybe it'll allow you to reach a better place to bounce off of? Just an idea. I played around with the upgraded pods some time ago and didn't notice any major improvement with them other than the ones you mentioned. In any case, they were also helpless on planet 12 without boosters. I don't see any way around buying double-strength boosters after planet 7 either (unless you find some new exploit of course). For information, I did get my best console run published on sda. Most of it is of course too basic to be used in a tas, but maybe you'll find something of use that's not already mentioned.
Posted: 7/26/2013 12:31 AM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1199)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/8171939460986207 Well, I am now successful in bypassing that big enemy. I don't see any obvious ways of doing it faster, as trying to have motion going to the right at the moment of impact is just bouncing me back out. Probably why I had trouble earlier. I've been throwing fuel at various bounces through the area. This might cause trouble when it comes time for the second big enemy. There is a spare pod in a decent spot later on, so I can lose the pod after getting the fuel cells without huge time loss. Then again, there's also a can of fuel also in a somewhat convenient spot after the second big enemy. Money... I am guaranteed 3000 by Planet 8: 1000 as beginning money, and 2000 from that crystal collection game. Crystal spinning gives another 8775 at some cost to time, but I'll have 11775 to throw around. I can probably manipulate 225 from various enemies for a nice, round 12000. More seems possible. I prefer concentrating on the parts leading up to the orange crystal before I try to come up with some future decisions. The Planets 8 and 12 shops might be worth looking through for this planning, but I'm focusing my time on this tunnel for now.
Posted: 8/2/2013 12:11 AM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1199)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/8327020010578242 I very carefully tweaked with my velocity and positioning. I finally have a nice result I like, faster by a decent margin compared to before. Well, I do ricochet off something... But I make the game think it's the flat portion of the ceiling. This cuts my Y speed in half without affecting the X speed. In addition to rapid tether/untether of the fuel cell, there is a strange property of Y speed. When your thrusters are enough to cross over the zero point, it apparently applies your thrusters' force a second time, effectively doubling its Y power for that frame. Once I managed to stop descending, this error in calculation kept my pod up for that last bit until I clear the last spike. It can maintain height indefinitely, even in Planet 12, as each frame, if your thrusters cause your speed to cross over a zero point for whatever reason, the game messes up its calculations. There is a reason why I'm saying 'speed' instead of 'velocity'. The game uses a single bit in some byte to determine which direction in the axis you're going, and an always positive number for how fast. I say the game uses speed and direction instead of velocity, and insist that 'speed' is the proper terminology here due to internal storage. I took my sweet time on this one single part largely because of other stuff getting in the way of my TASing. Sorry about that.
Posted: 8/8/2013 12:42 AM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1199)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/8460679018803471 Got through Planet 7. I need a baseline for the case where I don't spin the crystal, so that's why I haven't done that yet. The weight of the Golden Ship Part is ridiculous. I thrust downwards, and instead I'm getting pushed upwards. May as well make use of this quirk to get the part in that wormhole in a timely manner. Since it's getting more important to work out my shopping list, I think it's time I experiment with Star Bullets and see how useful a weapon it is. I might just stick with time bombs, but who knows? Two Double Strength Thrusters look to be ideal. One will be lost when I destroy a jetpod for a shortcut back. I've already sunk 2000 right there. Time bombs are the cheapest weapon, and I will likely want something to enhance my offense, so now the total equipment budget is taking 2150. Nothing else really looks necessary. I can probably manipulate a small amount more if I want to also pick up Anti Gravity. Maybe that will help. Crystal spinning in an attempt to get a jetpod to drag wormholes around might be nice, but to pay the 12150, I need to manipulate 375 from random enemies (difficult, by my impression), or hold off on some purchases until Planet 12. It takes a while to select either the thrusters or an upgraded jetpod, so it's best if I can just get them all right away. ... But I still have some things to optimize on Planet 7, as well as take a look at how long it'll take to spin the crystal around.
Posted: 8/8/2013 9:37 PM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1199)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/8480117589615625 I spin the crystal in this attempt. Over 1000 frames slower, however. All this just so I can drag wormholes around. The spin itself is quite smooth for the most part, but the fact I crash into walls more frequently suggests the increased difficulty of keeping it going. My fuel ran completely out just before getting it refilled the second time, as one more frame of thrusting would destroy the pod. Another trick that I haven't looked too deeply into yet, is the fact that I can apparently use some thrusting power without affecting the momentum of the tethered object. This involves alternating between using or idling the thrusters every not-lag frame. The basic thrusters are already very weak, but carrying an object as well as only using the thrusters half the time just makes it feel almost as though they don't exist. ... But I need to study that trick further. I only just saw some potential with it. Then again, I also need to study the tethering mechanics. I've only TASed this by intuition -- I haven't even bothered to look for the important RAM addresses for the tether or any of the code behind it. Does it look like I'm spinning the crystal fast enough? Okay, good enough! ... That will need some examining. We still need to get some estimates on any potential route where dragging wormholes is beneficial. We might not need time bombs, as there aren't any particular enemies in the way, except for the repelling orbs, but I'm not sure I can even reach them with bombs. But now we have a baseline for pulling together 8775 from a crystal. Optimizations still need to be done, if my explanations in this post are any indication.
Posted: 8/9/2013 11:39 AM
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ktwo
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Joined: 8/10/2008
Posts: 116
Very much enjoying the progress here! The only place you need one of the weapon upgrades in a warp run is against a big enemy at the bottom of planet 13. It blocks a passage and its front cannot be damaged with the pea shooter. I won't say that it's impossible to bypass it somehow like the enemy on planet 7, but just hat I've never managed to do it. I would suggest that you investigate if that's possible or not fairly soon. If it turns out that you can't bypass it and therefore need to buy time bombs or star bullets, I think the whole idea with the upgraded pod has to be questioned (I can't see how you can get that much extra money). The crystal trick looks awesome in my opinion, but I'm curious if having the option to drag the small wormholes to the fuel cells will really save you that much time. The layouts for planet 12 and 13 just don't seem to give much benefit from that option. Still, it will definitely save some time so you should of course try it out (provided you can solve the financial situation for getting the upgraded pod).
Posted: 8/9/2013 8:17 PM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1199)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
Dragging wormholes in Planet 13 looks potentially beneficial. Using the published TAS for counting fuel cells, I could drag the wormhole towards fuel cell #3, then continue dragging it towards fuel cell #4, bypassing the need to climb all the way to that other wormhole. Planet 12, on the other hand, will only benefit minimally at best. On a quick estimate, the total time saved is really close to how much is lost on spinning the crystal. ... Hmm... That big thing in Planet 13 looks difficult to bypass on the return trip. I'll be experimenting for a bit to see if I can get by weaponless, but if not, that thing serves as a very tough wall. I'll optimize the RNG for money intake, but it's hard to say if I'll get enough. I also just experimented a bit with Double Strength Thrusters. Alas, they're not double as advertised, but rather quadruple strength -- I'm getting four times the acceleration with them equipped. Now that I'm finally experimenting with decent engines, I'm really feeling the strength of them. Wow, it's different. EDIT: While poking about in one enemy spawner routine, I have discovered that a particular enemy will spawn if either one of these happen: - Every 1024 frames, at a 50% chance - Every 256 frames, after three spins with the crystal However, at least one of the first three enemy slots must be empty, or that particular enemy won't ever spawn, with or without crystal spins. Judging from a time where this enemy successfully spawned, I am led to believe that this particular piece of code would spawn an enemy that drops a 25 chest. The enemy itself is worth another 3, so every one I spawn, I get 28. Before my third crystal spin, judging purely from the timers, I had a chance at spawning seven of those enemies. Then another six chances while wrapping up my spinny crystal attempt, then finally one more on the way to the wormhole. Assuming I can manage to shoot all these things without slowing down for an inch and also allowing them to spawn without other enemies taking up the needed slots, as well as the routine I was looking at does, indeed, spawn the enemy I'm thinking of, I can pull together 392 just from these things. This is above the 375 I require for the budget, and therefore theoretically enough, if I put strong effort into making that mess happen. The various value-5 enemies along the way I need to shoot as well does help slightly, of course. To help in manipulation, I can always abuse P2. I'd like to avoid that just so I can say, I did it with only one controller. Also, smaller file size. But if I absolutely need that extra manipulation to save even a single frame, I will, of course, go straight for P2 to do so, but I'd like to see if I can do it without P2.
Posted: 8/22/2013 8:57 PM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1199)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/8790394280676009 In case you're worried about whether progress exists. I am saving several frames here and there while also killing enemies from way off screen. I even realized I had fuel to spare when it comes to that second big enemy, so I used the terrain as nature's brakes instead of using pause-invincibility to bounce a little higher than I like. Also note how those big enemies spit out five smaller enemies really close together. The power of 2P can do that. 219 out of 375 gained from enemies. Considering how much is left of the planet, it looks like I will get the remaining 156 without too much difficulty. If I had also gotten that one enemy I missed, worth another 28, that would be just 128 left instead. But something messed with my Y speed when I tried that, and doing the exact same actions with an identical RNG caused a desync when I was 30 subpixels up from the original route, thus interfering with the "nature's brakes" I was using. In any case, the crystal-free route already has enough money gained by enemies to play around with the idea of anti-gravity without impacting my other purchases. Might only save a tiny amount of frames, including the minimal time spent purchasing it, but the possibility is there.
Posted: 8/23/2013 5:24 PM
(Edited: 8/23/2013 8:57 PM)
Post subject: Solar jetman wip: YouTube (w/ explanatory subtitles)
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antd
Joined: 3/18/2006
Posts: 971
Location: Great Britain
Link to video
FatRatKnight wrote:
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/8790394280676009 In case you're worried about whether progress exists .
Posted: 8/23/2013 8:07 PM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1199)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/8812040509984293 Uh... What. Is. Going. On...? I saw this like, just now. When I first saw it, I got scared and wanted to end it quick. Something glitched the big enemy into moving as though of its own will. The stationary big enemy is moving!! It's supposed to be stationary! But it's moving! ... Let's not end it quick. If I can glitch other ones into moving like this insanity here, the fact I'm lacking time bombs will not be an issue slowing me down. Anyway, initial reaction is over, it's time we make a thorough analysis. If it comes down to being an emulator glitch, I'd like to know. Really. Uh, what is going on? On a side note, thanks for the YouTube encode.
Posted: 8/23/2013 9:06 PM
Post subject: Solar jetman: moving enemy glitch: YouTube
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antd
Joined: 3/18/2006
Posts: 971
Location: Great Britain
Link to video
FatRatKnight wrote:
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/8812040509984293 Something glitched the big enemy into moving as though of its own will. The stationary big enemy is moving!! It's supposed to be stationary! But it's moving!
Posted: 8/23/2013 10:31 PM
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AnS
Emulator Coder, Experienced player (728)
Joined: 2/23/2006
Posts: 682
FatRatKnight wrote:
Anyway, initial reaction is over, it's time we make a thorough analysis.
If you're going to use FCEUX debugging tools, I suggest downloading the latest revision, since there are a few improvements. For example, the "Highlight Activity" feature of Hex Editor:
Posted: 8/25/2013 7:28 AM
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ktwo
Active player (251)
Joined: 8/10/2008
Posts: 116
FatRatKnight wrote:
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/8812040509984293 Uh... What. Is. Going. On...? ... If it comes down to being an emulator glitch, I'd like to know.
This has happened a few times for me on console. Not common, but not that extreme either. I have not had any of the other similar enemies (on the warps route) fly off like that.
Posted: 8/25/2013 9:36 AM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1199)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
Huh... Interim svn2974 didn't have that cool highlighting. Would like to see it for myself at some point. I haven't been able to focus my time, but while watching a certain set of numbers I recognize as a type of ID number (addresses 0x317 to 0x335), the big ones that are in the way of the paths are ID 0x97, but this one shows up as ID 0xA4. This implies that this one is unique and may very well act differently from ID 0x97. Nothing certain, yet, but I saw this one as 0xA4 in my prior attempts, yet didn't seem to move then. Which means it might not be a glitch, but intended for an enemy, identical in appearance, to move unlike the other ones. It is a comfort to hear that this event does happen on the console itself. Regardless, when I can get the time, I'll take a closer look.
Posted: 1/31/2014 5:32 PM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1199)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/12384433340285997 I've distracted myself on this game, yet again. This time I looked a little harder into memory for things related to tethered objects. Rotational position happens to be a two-byte value at address 0068 and speed is one-byte at 006B. There are 128 positions for the tether going by the position's high-byte, and positions 0x40 to 0x4F (bottom to bottom-left) sets up the crystal bonus, while 0x70 to 0x7F (top-left to top) will trigger the bonus. I'm sure there are ways to further improve this planet. The way the crystal spins is a difficult and involved process while going through that water tunnel and shooting at stuff from off screen. I'm pretty happy how much faster I went, though. I'm going to work on Planet 13. Time bombs, two sets of strong thrusters, and the fancy jetpod that can drag wormholes. If improvements are found in Planet 7, I will note the game has so far proven to be sync-stable with regards to everything but the RNG. The RNG is really volatile, but it can be almost completely controlled through player 2, so syncing things up look to be a matter of messing with player 2 until it works.
Posted: 2/1/2014 4:12 AM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1199)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/12394425950904402 Notably, it's a concentrated distraction. Already did Planet 13. Take a look. Fuel #3 has to be picked up in that strange fashion. Unfortunately, in order to tether that fuel cell, I must not be in reach of the wormhole, or else I'd tether that instead, and I can't stuff the wormhole into the fuel to get the fuel. Fuel #4 has a similar problem, but the terrain and direction I have to go is more convenient. As for the Golden Ship Part, that apparently takes tethering priority over the wormhole, so that problem doesn't affect me there. I need to figure out what affects when I can clear the item getting screen. It takes me a long time for my last fuel, but hitting A a frame earlier wouldn't clear it, at least when I was in the middle of TASing. Fun how I keep the wormhole above me for most of the trip to Fuel #4 and back. In case it didn't look like it, those wormholes are really heavy. Apparently stable hyper tunnels in the fabric of space time also involve a lot of mass.
Posted: 2/1/2014 1:15 PM
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jlun2
Skilled player (1738)
Joined: 9/17/2009
Posts: 4980
Location: ̶C̶a̶n̶a̶d̶a̶ "Kanatah"
GBA TASer of 2010
FatRatKnight wrote:
Which means it might not be a glitch, but intended for an enemy, identical in appearance, to move unlike the other ones. It is a comfort to hear that this event does happen on the console itself. Regardless, when I can get the time, I'll take a closer look.
Just curious, did you ever managed to figure out the cause? :o
LLCoolDave wrote:
This seems to be competing for the "Worst looking TAS of 2011" Award.
Posted: 2/1/2014 6:09 PM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1199)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
jlun2 wrote:
FatRatKnight wrote:
Which means it might not be a glitch, but intended for an enemy, identical in appearance, to move unlike the other ones. It is a comfort to hear that this event does happen on the console itself. Regardless, when I can get the time, I'll take a closer look.
Just curious, did you ever managed to figure out the cause? :o
Never did. Apparently has something to do with the RNG, as when I made minor adjustments (by which I mean has nothing to do with changing trajectory), that thing didn't fly to me. I'm still going by the fact its ID number is different from the others and, for the time being, assume the others are stationary. I wanted to TAS the later planets. I do want to know if my shopping list is a good one. And if I later discover without doubt the guarding green ones can't move, well nice. I have a movie that goes past all that. I'm still more in a mood to deal with new planets than to stay on Planet 7 for another few days/weeks/forevers. Expect progress on Planet 12 rather than me figuring out some inner mechanics. I'll probably set a break point on the speed of the relevant enemy and look at the disassembly if I do want to analyze things in detail.
Posted: 2/2/2014 6:44 PM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1199)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/12415500773566030 - First attempt, no Anti-Gravity. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/12430083941247869 - Second attempt, bought and used Anti-Gravity. Well, buying one more item is definitely worth it. I remember thinking about Anti-Gravity before, but I didn't think it would do much then. That was before I figured out how to abuse tethered objects to go faster than the usual speed limit. There's no fast way to get a spare 1000 cash for my first shopping trip, but that isn't a big problem, as Anti-Gravity shows up very early in the shop. When I get the 1000 I need later, I don't have far to go. No, there's no way I'm climbing up to the top of the planet with the wormhole without Anti-Gravity. That thing's heavy enough to overwhelm my boosted thrusters in this gravity, I can't get there in a timely fashion. I control my fuel precisely enough to blow up the instant I'm in reach of the wormhole. Should be faster than manipulating an enemy bullet in the right spot.
Posted: 2/4/2014 6:33 AM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1199)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/12462875259092178 - Second segment without Anti-Gravity. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/12462891550207300 - More Anti-Gravity fun! Wow, that thing is just plain useful! Turn on or off the gravity at will. I took a quick look at that auto-scroller known as the last stage with the Golden Warpship. ... I will not enjoy TASing it as what the heck am I supposed to do to maintain entertainment? Don't worry, I haven't forgotten about preventing one eye from spawning, but this will take some analysis. Maybe later, I want a complete movie quickly. Potential improvements noted: Planet 1: I remember frame warring against myself on this. I don't expect improvements. Planet 7: The crystal spins are really complicated. You have a weak thruster. Your fuel is really tight for all the walls you have to abuse. I'm not sure how much can be trimmed off with a better spin route, but the obvious ceiling is the crystal-less speed run. A note: When I slammed into the spike above one of those green enemies, I shot a fuel can at the same frame. If the shot came any later, my pod goes boom. Somehow, on the exact same frame, I get max fuel instead of max fuel minus one wall slam. Planet 8: Increase that X-pos value as fast as possible. Far too simple, really. Planet 13: I have to question the value of Time Bombs for the moment. That big enemy I blow up doesn't appear to take up too much room for me to squeeze through. Of course, I'd have to check. One less item to scroll past later. Anti-Gravity would let me fall faster with the Wormhole. Trading a Time Bomb plus 850 money for one Anti-Gravity appears unlikely, however. Planet 12: I wasn't too careful with some wormhole related speed boosts. I try to keep things reasonably tight, but I have to say, although I was keeping careful watch on my speed & position, and using a lua-enhanced TASEditor the whole time, I still slightly rushed things.
Posted: 2/4/2014 5:12 PM
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ktwo
Active player (251)
Joined: 8/10/2008
Posts: 116
Nice to see you make progress. I don't understand the need for time bombs on planet 13 either. It looks like it should be possible to slip by the big enemy twice without really any time loss. If not, don't you have enough time to shoot it with the regular gun on the way back?
Posted: 2/4/2014 9:04 PM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1199)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/12476717057354893 - No bomb, no problem. Getting the bomb was just an artifact of older plans that I followed blindly while trying to figure out a good route to take. I don't have the time to shoot that enemy's 16 HP away, by roughly 2 frames. I can, however, slip under it again without trouble. I did succeed in accelerating a little faster after that last fuel in Planet 13, but the faster acceleration didn't save a frame. Huh. No trouble getting back the progress after Planet 13, as I fixed up the RNG and went on my merry way to Planet 12. That's a relief, though I did earlier predict I wouldn't have too many syncing troubles.
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