Submission Text Full Submission Page
In response to #4135: letcreate123's DS Tetris DS "Push Mode Level 5" in 00:19.79, I've made a 403-frame improvement to Tetris DS Push Mode, level 5. By [/Forum/Topics/14688&p=361763|feos's suggestion], I'd like to submit it for consideration.

Game objectives

  • Emulator used: DeSmuME 0.9.10
  • Aims for fastest time
  • Uses hardest difficulty
  • Manipulates AI

Tricks used

AI Manipulation

Here is a state diagram of the AI:
At its fastest, it places a piece every 23 frames. It only hard drops (no soft drops). And, importantly, once it has chosen a placement, it does not consider a better placement for the same piece. That leads to situations like this:
In the screenshot, the AI has already chosen the best placement, even though I will soon be adding pieces that will give it a far better placement:
The last time the AI reaches the decision/"hard drop" state is with an I piece.
Afterward, it finds no desirable placements, gravity makes the AI's pieces fall and they are only placed due to lock delay.

Run details

Here is my strategy for the run. The Random Generator seed for Push Mode is always the same, provided it is the first game played on startup, even if a variable number of frames have passed until the game starts. Since Push Mode only rewards line clears (not T-spins or combos), my goal is perform 2 Tetrises as quickly as possible. Due to shortcomings in the level 5 Push AI, this is sufficient to win. I use "hold" twice.
As for tetromino efficiency, there is only 1 mino above my platform after the 2 tetrises are performed, so the number of pieces used (23) is optimal, I think. However, I do use "hold" twice, which costs 2 frames total. If someone found a strategy that places 23 pieces but uses no holds, it would be 2 frames faster than mine.
Similarly to ToonLucas22's TAS, the replay file ends several seconds before the Push Mode game itself has completed. This means that if a Push Mode TAS were to be combined with any other modes, the extra seconds would need to be included in the replay file, and the strategy used here would become very inefficient. For this reason, I do not recommend trying to include this in a TAS of several Tetris DS modes at once, as efficiency in the individual modes will suffer.
Slow version (25%):

Special thanks

Thanks to ToonLucas22, who used the idea of a Tetris platform in his run. Thanks also to SmashManiac for encouraging me to optimize 1 piece further.

Baxter: Judging...

Baxter: Submission file replaced by a 10 frame faster version.

Baxter: A technically good movie, with a good audience response. It only completes one mode however, while there are several interesting modes to show off. A prefered version that completes several modes is already being worked on. This movie will be rejected in favor of the upcoming superior version.


TASVideoAgent
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This topic is for the purpose of discussing #4144: morningpee's DS Tetris DS "Push Mode Level 5" in 00:13.06
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Could we have a low-speed encode like we did for the F-Zero death race?
morningpee
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thatguy wrote:
Could we have a low-speed encode like we did for the F-Zero death race?
Good idea, uploading as we speak. Edit: Added to the original submission.
Projects: Tetris DS Genesis Toys: Let the Toy Wars Begin
creaothceann
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alternative audio for the slow encode
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There's 5 garbage blocks at the top in the end, suggesting that it's possible to use one less tetrimino with better arrangement. Also, I'm not sure if making lines from the top block instead of the bottom block is the better strategy. For these reasons, I believe it's possible to improve this run by a few frames. I could be completely wrong though. In any case, I really liked watching this run, so I'm voting Yes. :)
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Tetris, a game that never changes, and yet, it is so addictive! I'm a tetris lover, so my vote would be Yes regardless, but in this case the TASer earned it; really neat run.
I am old enough to know better, but not enough to do it.
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Thanks for responding to my request so quickly scahfy! I feel much happier voting yes when I can actually see what's going on :)
adelikat
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I think it is not a vaultable movie, and bordline at best for moons. It is fast and obviously inhuman, so it does have some "entertainment value" in the way that we look for when judging moons. So I vote meh. I do think it does the bare minimum when more effort could yield a much better result. We think we would all would agree that an all modes movie would be much more impressive and entertaining.
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
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adelikat wrote:
I think it is not a vaultable movie, and bordline at best for moons. It is fast and obviously inhuman, so it does have some "entertainment value" in the way that we look for when judging moons. So I vote meh. I do think it does the bare minimum when more effort could yield a much better result. We think we would all would agree that an all modes movie would be much more impressive and entertaining.
I agree. In fact, imo it seems to resemble this run and feels like a WIP more than an actual full game submission.
morningpee
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SmashManiac wrote:
There's 5 garbage blocks at the top in the end, suggesting that it's possible to use one less tetrimino with better arrangement. Also, I'm not sure if making lines from the top block instead of the bottom block is the better strategy. For these reasons, I believe it's possible to improve this run by a few frames. I could be completely wrong though. In any case, I really liked watching this run, so I'm voting Yes. :)
Thank you for the kind words, people who liked this run. SmashManiac is right, I found a strategy that uses 1 less block and the same number of holds, saving 10 frames. New replay file: http://www.filedropper.com/tetrisdspushscahfy781
Projects: Tetris DS Genesis Toys: Let the Toy Wars Begin
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scahfy wrote:
SmashManiac is right, I found a strategy that uses 1 less block and the same number of holds, saving 10 frames. New replay file: http://www.filedropper.com/tetrisdspushscahfy781
Submission file replaced by this new version.
morningpee
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Baxter wrote:
scahfy wrote:
SmashManiac is right, I found a strategy that uses 1 less block and the same number of holds, saving 10 frames. New replay file: http://www.filedropper.com/tetrisdspushscahfy781
Submission file replaced by this new version.
Thank you, Baxter. I've updated the videos to reflect the new replay file.
Projects: Tetris DS Genesis Toys: Let the Toy Wars Begin
creaothceann
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Fast encode with 1/4 fps and alternative audio: http://www.mediafire.com/download/od89dn584d2xvke/
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An analysis of how the AI behaves in this run or in general would be nice, as it sometimes appears to make bad decisions even when following the state machine posted at the top.
Personman
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This is awesome and an easy yes vote. I don't see why we should obligate runners to include modes they aren't interested in. I also think it's good that this was submitted alone, as it allows a really neat strategy to be shown off that, as the submission text explains, wouldn't work in an all-modes movie.
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scahfy wrote:
SmashManiac is right, I found a strategy that uses 1 less block and the same number of holds, saving 10 frames.
Well I can't think of any trivial way to improve the top block strategy now! Nice! :)
jlun2 wrote:
In fact, imo it seems to resemble this run and feels like a WIP more than an actual full game submission.
I heavily disagree on this. [516] SNES F-Zero "first track" by Saturn in 02:22.03 is showing off a single level out of a whole bunch of levels, while this submission is showing off a specific game mode with different gameplay mechanics of the rest of the game altogether. Arguing that Push mode should be combined with other game modes is completely ridiculous in my opinion. It's like saying that Action 52 runs must play all 52 games because each game is too boring separately, or that NES Tetris A-Type runs should be combined with B-Type runs because B-type is too short. Why argue something different for Tetris DS? I can understand that this game mode alone might not be entertaining enough for some, but that argument should not prevent publication, even in Vault. If you're not interested in this game mode alone, just wait until there are movies published for all game modes, and then watch them in succession. I think this should satisfy everybody, yes?
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SmashManiac wrote:
scahfy wrote:
SmashManiac is right, I found a strategy that uses 1 less block and the same number of holds, saving 10 frames.
Well I can't think of any trivial way to improve the top block strategy now! Nice! :)
jlun2 wrote:
In fact, imo it seems to resemble this run and feels like a WIP more than an actual full game submission.
I heavily disagree on this. [516] SNES F-Zero "first track" by Saturn in 02:22.03 is showing off a single level out of a whole bunch of levels, while this submission is showing off a specific game mode with different gameplay mechanics of the rest of the game altogether.
I don't think that a 2006 run that was (supposed to be) published as a concept demo only which definitely wouldn't be accepted under the current rules is a great precedent to staking anything on.
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Tangent wrote:
SmashManiac wrote:
jlun2 wrote:
In fact, imo it seems to resemble this run and feels like a WIP more than an actual full game submission.
I heavily disagree on this. [516] SNES F-Zero "first track" by Saturn in 02:22.03 is showing off a single level out of a whole bunch of levels, while this submission is showing off a specific game mode with different gameplay mechanics of the rest of the game altogether.
I don't think that a 2006 run that was (supposed to be) published as a concept demo only which definitely wouldn't be accepted under the current rules is a great precedent to staking anything on.
Uhh yeah, pretty sure we all agree on that already. I'm not sure I understand your comment, so to clarify, what I meant was that a subset of levels and a subset of game modes are completely different things, so comparing that old movie to this submission is irrelevant.
ALAKTORN
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is it me or does the TAS avoid input to “end” sooner and let the AI kill itself? if so, I really disliked that, I’d much rather have a longer input time but a shorter ending time
morningpee
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ALAKTORN wrote:
is it me or does the TAS avoid input to “end” sooner and let the AI kill itself? if so, I really disliked that, I’d much rather have a longer input time but a shorter ending time
That's exactly what it does. This run wasn't meant to be a cure for cancer, I just wanted to optimize what ToonLucas22 was doing because I thought he had a cool idea. One of my current projects is an "all modes" run of Tetris DS, which does not use this strategy.
Projects: Tetris DS Genesis Toys: Let the Toy Wars Begin
mklip2001
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There isn't a lot of content in this run, but I found it pretty interesting, and I liked seeing the AI slowly kill itself in the end out of stupidity. I also agree with what SmashManiac was saying about how this situation isn't like a WIP. It's also definitely a short enough run to avoid getting real boring. I'm in favor of having this put up as a Moons run in just this mode. If an all-modes run comes out later, then we can discuss whether that would obsolete this run.
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically. Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.) Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html) Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature! Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
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ALAKTORN wrote:
is it me or does the TAS avoid input to “end” sooner and let the AI kill itself? if so, I really disliked that, I’d much rather have a longer input time but a shorter ending time
I invite you to read Thread #14336: Input time vs avi time and join the conversation if you have anything new to contribute on this matter.
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om, nom, nom... blech, salty!
MarbleousDave
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Playground maybe??