Post by Spikestuff

Posted: 1/8/2014 1:09 AM

Post subject: Demo tier

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feos

Site Admin, Skilled player (1255)

Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg

Demo tier's aim is to prove that TASes are a part of Demoscene. Demoscene got its popularity due to various factors: pushing the target hardware to limits, doing things way better than expected, putting huge effort and knowledge into creation of demos, and they all are quite suitable for TASes too. So it is expected that in Demo tier we could put impressive achievements that not just fit into it conceptually, but also deserve it rather than rejection (guefood delight). It's not to allow publishing SMB with game over before the final boss, or any type of sloppy play. Criterias: 1. Technical achievement with uncertain entertainment value (may be high). - Entirely/mostly bruteforced/botted runs [1] [2]. - Runs that glitch to the ending [we all know our heroes]. - Tool showcases [1] [2] [3]. - Total control hacks [we all know our heroes]. 2. Esoteric goals that are still worth having published. - Playarounds? - Minimal presses [1]. - Whatever shows up in the queue. For each movie that's about to go to Demo tier, there must be a discussion on why it's worth it exclusively (unless some branches/classes go there by default). Discuss! All the above is only my own thoughts.

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 1/8/2014 9:42 AM

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Personman

Other

Joined: 4/20/2008
Posts: 465

I'm not quite sure I'm ready to claim that we are "part of the demoscene", but I support the creation of this tier. I would vote against that NES Test run, though - there's really nothing technically impressive about it, and it's not very musically interesting either. In 2007 perhaps it was a neat trick but I think we've come a long way since then. Certainly I wouldn't want us to put it forward as part of our initial bid for inclusion in a scene that produces things like this.

A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.

Posted: 1/8/2014 10:05 AM

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Zarmakuizz

He/Him

Joined: 10/12/2013
Posts: 279
Location: France

Does [2187] GBC Pokémon: Yellow Version "arbitrary code execution" by bortreb in 12:51.87 count?

Posted: 1/8/2014 11:13 AM

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feos

Site Admin, Skilled player (1255)

Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg

Spikestuff wrote:

so http://tasvideos.org/1504S.html and http://tasvideos.org/3912S.html can be put in demo tier?

For me - pretty much.

Zarmakuizz wrote:

Does [2187] GBC Pokémon: Yellow Version "arbitrary code execution" by bortreb in 12:51.87 count?

If we make "Executes arbitrary code" a class, it can be a branch "Ponies!!!" having "Pi!!!" as a neighbor, since both goals look interesting to me. They present different implementation of the same concept, each being an artistic choice.

Personman wrote:

I would vote against that NES Test run, though - there's really nothing technically impressive about it, and it's not very musically interesting either. In 2007 perhaps it was a neat trick but I think we've come a long way since then.

The value of that movie is that you will never see a run like that at TASVideos. It's absolutely worth knowing about. It does demonstrate a concept. And kind of introduces the trope to use in regular runs - creating music with various actions.

Personman wrote:

I'm not quite sure I'm ready to claim that we are "part of the demoscene"

We surely aren't, officially. But in fact I have nothing else to attribute us to. Well, we aren't showing impressive programming solutions too often, neither do we abuse hardware, but the overall approach is the same.

Personman wrote:

Certainly I wouldn't want us to put it forward as part of our initial bid for inclusion in a scene that produces things like this.

There's no need to be included anywhere. We just can provide enough impressive demos of our own approach. They need to be exclusively TAS-related, but not be actual standard TASes. Demo tier is needed because there is enough we can do that is: - Still TAS-related - Impressive - Non-standard within the good old category system.

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 1/8/2014 11:47 AM

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Warp

Banned User

Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland

As I commented in the other thread, I think that very high standards of quality and notability should be imposed on any submission aimed for this tier, in order to avoid it being flooded with random stuff, devaluing its purpose. (Btw, also I found the allusion to the demoscene a bit strange.)

Posted: 1/8/2014 12:21 PM

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Personman

Other

Joined: 4/20/2008
Posts: 465

Pretty much on board with Warp here. I don't see "you'll never see anything like these elsewhere on TASVideos" as a compelling enough reason to include a movie as, frankly, awful as that one. I think the demo tier should be strive to include only the absolute best non-TAS TAS-ish movies the community has to offer, and should also strive for uniqueness - I do not think there is much value in including multiple different payloads for the same total control run, for instance. Making music with button inputs is something that is showcased in amazing normal TASes like the OoT run currently on the workbench, where it is both done better and presented in a more suitable context. I really see no place for that NES Test run in any new publication category whatsoever, much less one meant to highlight the most technically impressive (but non-speedrun) feats we are capable of.

A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.

Posted: 1/8/2014 1:32 PM

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feos

Site Admin, Skilled player (1255)

Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg

Warp wrote:

As I commented in the other thread, I think that very high standards of quality and notability should be imposed on any submission aimed for this tier, in order to avoid it being flooded with random stuff, devaluing its purpose.

Why didn't you suggest any? Also, I don't think standards need to be nearly impossible to satisfy. It's not a Star tier. It's just a branch to store TAS-ish achievements. We don't need to tell what only makes sense to publish there, we need to describe what doesn't. And not per each movie, but in common. So that then we could productively discuss which movies don't fall into that nonsense. Most april fool's submissions do: fastest crash or fastest death is only april fool worthy, because it's just silly.

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 1/8/2014 3:50 PM

Post subject: Re: Demo tier

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jlun2

Skilled player (1743)

Joined: 9/17/2009
Posts: 4986
Location: ̶C̶a̶n̶a̶d̶a̶ "Kanatah"

For botted runs, to what extent? I hope this doesn't become a dumping ground for a bunch of easily botted minigames like these. Also, for "Technical achievement with uncertain entertainment value" I know of these: #3525: jlun2's Windows Syobon Action "Random Mode" in 00:08.28 #3080: ais523's DOS NetHack "fastest death" in 00:01.15 #3074: Nitrodon's GBA Fire Emblem "best TAS ever" in 00:31.62 But once again, what extent would be worth publishing? I disagree with publishing minimal presses as a demo. It was only entertaining since the encode included the DDR-like interface. If it were to be viewed on the emulator, I'd say this is more entertaining than a TAS which gameplay looks less than spectacular. Finally, I rather have this published than the NES Test Tas.

LLCoolDave wrote:

This seems to be competing for the "Worst looking TAS of 2011" Award.

Posted: 1/8/2014 4:00 PM

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adelikat

He/Him

Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3576)

Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee

The problem with the past demo section was it was poorly defined. It was never clear what movies would qualify, or more importantly which would NOT qualify. As such, any movie that was facing a rejection was suggested as a demo. For this tier to come into existence is MUST be clearly defined. Such that we could take a 100 movies at random and determine their eligibility with a clear consensus of opinion.

It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects

Posted: 1/8/2014 5:08 PM

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Radiant

Player (26)

Joined: 8/29/2011
Posts: 1206
Location: Amsterdam

I'm having trouble seeing the difference between this one, Star Tier, and the Recommended-For-Newcomers tier; all three appear to be "the best of Moon Tier" and are somewhat nebulously defined beyond that. Generally speaking it is true for most any TAS that it is "pushing the target hardware to limits, doing things way better than expected, putting huge effort and knowledge into creation".

Indie game developer

Posted: 1/8/2014 7:34 PM

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Scepheo

Player (146)

Joined: 7/16/2009
Posts: 686

Considering the target audience is people looking for technical achievements, and they, almost by definition, find technical achievements entertaining, TASes that would qualify for this tier are also entertaining enough to be published as either a moon or star. No need for new ill-defined categories.

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