This is a run using Mega Man on Normal Difficulty. It utilizes a gecko code created by Delroth and Darkeye which allows quick weapon switching similar to Mega Man 10. The code is ONLY used to provide a smoother viewing experience. An in-game time run without using the code would use the exact same strategies, but every weapon change would include a ~70 frame pause. After obtaining concrete shot, this would become incredibly jarring and unpleasant to watch.
The code isn't perfect, and there are some frames where it doesn't work or I need to change weapons faster than the code allows. For this, I still use the menu as normal.
Again, the code DOES NOT provide any gameplay advantages over a regular run. It's ONLY purpose is to enhance the entertainment. Whether this code bars it from acceptance is to be seen. I merely created this run because I said I would 5 years ago ([Forum/Posts/296896)]) and I'm not one to be called a liar. :)
I will add that there is an improvement to be had if someone were to create a New Game+ of this run with maximum screws and buy an M-Tank before every stage.
This would allow an extra full bar of concrete shot zips would could save up to a second on each stage. I chose not to do this and only visited the shot once before the Wily stages.
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APRIL FOOLS!
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This site does not allow cheats, so I doubt this will ever be published.
Maybe someone can make a hack of this game instead of a cheat code to perform the exact same function.
Samsara: Deja Vu Man's powerup is Deja Vu Man's powerup is Deja Vu Man's powerup is Deja Vu Man's powerup is Deja Vu Man's powerup is Deja Vu Man's powerup.
Noxxa: A lot has already been said in the discussion topic, but let's keep the verdict simple and clear.
This run uses a cheat code from an external cheating device (USB Gecko). The site rules strictly forbid these, and I'm rejecting this submission for that reason.
The rule against external cheat codes is strict, and no exception will be made to this. TASVideos is founded on spreading the notion of tool-assisted speedruns run through the game with no external modifications made to the game, and publishing a run such as this would go against that very notion. It would not just raise the common misconceptions made about what TASes are, but it would also legitimize those same misconceptions.
This run was created with the intent of using the cheat code to make TASing the game easier and making the game more watchable to the viewer audience. The first reason is not an acceptable reason for our judging purposes, as we judge the end result movie file, not the method to get there. It's possible to make a run without the cheat code, so it should be made without the cheat code. The second reason, to make the game more watchable for the viewer audience, is also not a sufficient reason to effectively de-legitimize the input file. It's something that can be handled by a special encode to cut out menu screens, as has been done for runs such as Super Metroid (cutting out door transitions). Bottom line, the reasons to use a cheat code are far from strong enough for us to consider changing our policy on external cheats. So I will continue to stick to the rule, disallowing any usage of external cheat codes, and reject this submission for publication on TASVideos.
I then chose to wait 5 months and resubmit it on April Fool's Day, a day I've noticed has been annually dedicated to runs that don't seriously expect to be published, often intentionally breaking the rules and pushing the envelope on what's acceptable for comedic or technical value.
I don't think a lot of them break rules to be honest.
Egads! You've expertly exposed my exiguos exaggeration for emphasis!!
More than one, then?
It's not the first, is all I'm saying, but thanks for the correction and valuable reminder that walls of text are easily usurped by semantics and grammar. :)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
From what I saw, most joke April Fools submissions break the rule of beating the game.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
For what it's worth, a few years ago I submitted a run on April 1 that got excellent audience feedback, and even nowadays is often talked about by people outside the TAS community. It got rejected for breaking the rules. (See #3080: ais523's DOS NetHack "fastest death" in 00:01.15 for details.)
Submitting the run was very worthwhile, as it makes linking to the submission page possible to have somewhere to discuss the run. In retrospect, though, I believe the judge was correct in rejecting it as it doesn't really fit alongside the other movies on the site.
So IIRC, the only reason to use this code here, is the author's motivation, or rather, lack thereof to TAS this without it. Given all of the above, as in:
it can be done the proper way and result in a similar viewer experience without breaking the rules
it doesn't add new entertaining content to the run, it only reduces some boring parts, so the viewer support isn't exceptional
it is an arbitrary decision
this run would even get rejected by the acceptionist Demo rules.
You've summed this up into a legitimate perspective here, thanks.
This could be the general consensus or just your own perspective, but please clarify for me, if you could.
Are you suggesting that this same run done properly and subsequently encoded appropriately would be published?
So I'm clear myself, by "properly" I mean without the code, and by "appropriately" I mean with pauses removed and the music synced.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
diggidoyo wrote:
Are you suggesting that this same run done properly and subsequently encoded appropriately would be published?
Yes, unless I'm utterly retarded and have no idea of how judging works (after judging 347 runs myself). This can be the case, really.
The only problem would be syncing the music, so if it magically syncs, a cheat code to pause the music just for encoding is perfectly fine, as long as no codes are used in the original movie. And it would just require creating such a code.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I gave it a yes, it was extremely entertaining for me to watch. Thank you for the run :)
Because of the cheat code, I don't think either that it can be published in moons, even with enormous "CAUTION!!" signs everywhere; anyway, it was already discussed.
But now I'm wondering...
If it was remade with pauses and had an alternate encode that removes them, I guess the judging would have to be made from the "normal" run (with pauses), am I right? I really don't know, in fact ^^.
If so, I'm afraid that the entertainment value would not be enough for the moons, but is the goal OK for the vault?
Are you suggesting that this same run done properly and subsequently encoded appropriately would be published?
Yes, unless I'm utterly retarded and have no idea of how judging works (after judging 347 runs myself). This can be the case, really.
The only problem would be syncing the music, so if it magically syncs, a cheat code to pause the music just for encoding is perfectly fine, as long as no codes are used in the original movie. And it would just require creating such a code.
Got it.
Once again, that's a valid perspective of the issue, possibly shared by most of the opposition, and provides a feasible solution which satisfies the prevailing argument that's been brought up against this run. Thank you, feos!
This is solid advice that can be followed now or at any point in the future by anyone who acquires the aforementioned motivation.
Allow me to introduce an alternative perspective. Meet Frank:
Frank is an author who wishes to create a tool-assisted superplay.
He begins to work on it, but soon realizes the run is more tedious to make than he anticipated.
He also predicts the finished quality of his run would not be up to his own standards.
With these drawbacks combined and unresolved, Frank postpones his project until......
Frank discovers a new tool to assist him with his tool-assisted superplay.
This wonderful tool incredibly boosts his efficiency at creating this tool-assisted superplay, while at the same time vastly improving the finished quality!
He finishes his tool-assisted superplay and giddily submits it to a TASvideos.org, a site which hosts a "community dedicated to creating and publishing Tool-Assisted Superplay(TAS) videos."
The community cringes at the submission, and is quick to berate Frank for his actions.
They sternly inform him that the tool he chose to assist him in the making of his tool-assisted superplay was the worst kind of tool imaginable!
It was a cheat code! An outlawed tool much like Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start.
Envisioning the inevitable and uncontrollable decline of the once firmly established community into a chaotic cheat-assisted superplay shitstorm, Frank's submission was promptly rejected.
Frank feels more like a tool than the tool he used to assist him on his tool-assisted superplay.
Poor Frank.
But there's hope for him yet! He's been provided with very clear instructions to make amends for his misdeed:
Recreate the superplay in it's entirety without the assistance of his newfound tool.
Find someone willing to carefully and accurately apply the effects of the forbidden tool, or learn how to to do this himself.
Resubmit his tool-less tool-assisted superplay and rest assured that it will absolutely be published with no possible chance of it still being rejected and his extra work for naught.
To summarize, Frank is being told to redo his tool-assisted superplay without tool assistance in order to:
Avoid intentionally confusing the unlimited supply of new people who go through the inevitable and ubiquitous process of briefly mistaking a tool-assisted superplay for a Let's Play.
Abide by a rule in it's original and literal context without consideration for the spirit of the rule or to the possibility that its context is outdated.
Prevent the community from ultimately destroying itself by following Frank's example and defending their actions with the super effective justification "but Frank did!"
Although this revised edition will take much longer to make and ultimately look exactly the same to the viewer as the edition he has already submitted, the technical background processes involved in displaying it will not use his cheatool.
Thus, the community can then honestly say no cheatools were used to make this tool-assisted superplay. Crisis averted.
I tried my best to curb the sarcasm, but it sucks to be Frank.
I'm actually hoping that this can be resynced via a Lua script, to save the effort in having to TAS it manually. Assuming pausing the game doesn't affect luck (which is something we have to hope for, and might or might not be the case), it'd just be a case of writing a script to input the weapon switches on frames where the movie currently says to change weapon, and delaying the rest of the movie the according number of frames. It could be that there are people here other than diggidoyo who could work on such a script.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Right, this is called resync, it doesn't require redoing the entire run and it's a common practice that might help find improvements. But Dolphin has no lua AFAIK. There's still some movie editor for it.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
If Frank had read the movie rules, he would have found helpful paragraphs like these:
Movie Rules wrote:
No tampering with the files the game is composed of
Some systems, such as DOS, exposes the separate parts of the game to the user. You are not allowed to manipulate game files except as normally done during install, if the game needs to be installed.
That means no renaming/copying/deleting/replacing/editing files.
Movie Rules wrote:
Tools that manipulate ROM or RAM (e.g. Game Genie codes) are not allowed
They count as hacked versions of the game if they touch ROM areas. Either convert it to a real hack or don't use it at all.
By reading these simple movie rules before using the new (and invalid) tool, Frank could have prevented a lot of tiresome headaches. Furthermore, it should be noted that not all of Frank's tools are being taken away, just the ones that are specifically forbidden by the site's very public rules page.
Even when Frank has been told in the past that he should not use these sorts of tools, Frank's work is not being taken away from him. Frank has pathed out a very workable solution to the game in question, and if Frank takes this work and converts it into a format that is acceptable by the site's rules, Frank's work can then properly be judged on its own merits.
Nobody in this thread is claiming that Frank has done bad work, they are just stating that Frank's work isn't suitable for this particular website, and that if he wants his work showcased here, he has to follow the rules.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
If Frank had read the movie rules, he would have found helpful paragraphs like these
Oh don't worry. I'm not Frank, and as you've mentioned, was forewarned in advance of this outcome.
This has allowed me to relinquish any emotional investment in this run and enabled me to admire the solidarity of the rule that's being contested.
But I'll vehemently stand by Frank on this issue if he is determined to be at fault.
If the response to any proposal for change is met with "that's just the rules" or "we've always done it that way," that's a clear indication that the rules need to be reviewed.
Except that, if you go back and read both pages of this thread, Frank has unanimously been declared to be at fault. Well, unanimously except for yourself.
As Samsara noted last page, the rule about not using cheat devices goes back to the creation of the site. It's not changing. Believing that one of the site's core principles should change suggests that you are even more at fault than you think you are, not that the site needs to mold itself to your desires.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
It seems you're trying to make me out to be a matyr, but in contrast to the steadfast stubbornness you're displaying, I've displayed my capacity to empathize and reason.
Also noted in the last page, is where I say I'm in favor of the rule and want it to remain in place, but you've conveniently skipped that part, and probably everything I've written in this thread.
The part where you claim to be in favour of the rule is in stark contrast to "Frank"'s desire that the rule be revisited or changed.
Furthermore, it seems that you've conveniently skipped all of the parts that suggest that if you do the work that your inserted cheat does for you, your run has a chance at being published. What's also mentioned is that an encode that could be provided for such a run would be similar to what you have presented with the cheat, however the run itself would be in accordance with the site's rules (which you are in favour of at present).
As for what I am trying to do, it is this: putting to rest your strawman argument (FrankerZ) and reciting the same information from other sources that you have frequently neglected with regard to this submission.
My sincerest hope is that you take these other peoples' suggestions to heart and provide a publishable Mega Man 9 Wii run using unmodified code from that game, as you've clearly put a lot of work into it.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
come on everyone, the run is super cool but you're basically just arguing over nothing now :(
leave it on youtube where people will still see it, or look into resyncing it without the cheat and just making a special encode.
Designer of Copy Kitty, a game about giant robots and explosions
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2822
Location: Northern California
diggidoyo wrote:
Also noted in the last page, is where I say I'm in favor of the rule and want it to remain in place, but you've conveniently skipped that part, and probably everything I've written in this thread.
Funnily enough, you've also conveniently skipped that part, because you're prolonging this useless argument instead of shutting the hell up about it and cancelling the run like you should have when you "decided" you were "in favor" of the rule.
If you're really in favor of the rule, then prove it by cancelling the run and ceasing to act like a spoiled child over it. You did this months ago during the fallout after the first submission, too, saying how in favor of the rule you are while simultaneously criticizing every aspect of the site.
This would be open to discussion if you actually had reasoning behind your arguments and weren't being so petty and whiny over it, but as long as you're failing to provide anything coherent, then we really have no reason to keep this discussion alive. Either you back down and save everyone the trouble or start acting like an adult and possibly turn this into an actual discussion instead of a temper tantrum.
AzureLazuline wrote:
come on everyone, the run is super cool but you're basically just arguing over nothing now :(
leave it on youtube where people will still see it, or look into resyncing it without the cheat and just making a special encode.
This is literally what we've all been saying this entire time, it's just that some people refuse to listen to these completely rational requests.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family.
Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Furthermore, it seems that you've conveniently skipped all of the parts that suggest that if you do the work that your inserted cheat does for you
Alright, forget Frank. I think it's incredibly absurd that the most appropriate solution to this problem requires me to perform twice as much work than I have already done, just to get back to where we are right now.
Here's a phrase: "Let's not and say we did." This seems to accomplish the same result for the viewer, and only we will know the difference. If that wasn't true, I would be more willing to comply.
Samsara wrote:
Funnily enough, you've also conveniently skipped that part, because you're prolonging this useless argument instead of shutting the hell up about it and cancelling the run like you should have when you "decided" you were "in favor" of the rule.
Ah, and a nice serving of "shut the hell up" to go with your previous "get the hell out." Thank you, Samsara! Another wonderful contribution to a thread you deplore while mysteriously exuding a vested interest in.
Look bud, the first cancellation was never a motion of defeat. It was a act of respect towards this site (very little of which has been returned here) by choosing to wait and affirm my position on a more appropriate day for such antics, April 1st.
This submission will not be canceled by me again, as I simply want an official judgement.
I find it very hard to find this request unreasonable, so once again, your personal attacks display a clear misunderstanding of the point. I'll admit, it seems the discussion has gotten convoluted, so allow me to refocus the conversation.
I'll shorten my opinion down to this single sentence:
The term "cheat" has been incorrectly applied to my use of a tool, at least in the capacity with which I used it in this run.
That's it. The tool removes roughly 70 frames per use where I do not have control of Mega Man (and by extension, the timer is paused).
Since my goal is in-game time instead of real-time, the effect of the tool is to simplify the creation of the TAS itself and edit the video as it's created. The tool has zero effect on the completion or advancement of the game in any way.
That's just my opinion folks, which is based on my unique experiences and may only ever belong to me. Regardless of the outcome, I find it perfectly acceptable to post in defense of my own submission in my own submission thread.
Since you insist on being as obtuse as humanly possible, let me deconstruct this entire situation for you once again, in terms that are simple, clear, and concise.
diggidoyo wrote:
It utilizes a gecko code created by Delroth and Darkeye which allows quick weapon switching similar to Mega Man 10.
Gecko OS is an application to allow the running of Import games and cheat codes.
Movie Rules wrote:
Cheats, debugging codes, and arcade continues are not allowed
Since Mega Man 9 Wii isn't an import game, it stands to reason that you are using Gecko here for the purposes of including code that isn't part of the game. You contend that it isn't a cheat code (because no "cheating" as you define it is happening), so instead, I point to this other rule:
Movie Rules wrote:
Tools that manipulate ROM or RAM (e.g. Game Genie codes) are not allowed
They count as hacked versions of the game if they touch ROM areas. Either convert it to a real hack or don't use it at all.
I already mentioned that one directly, and it's appropriate here -- your code is modifying the game code to enable functionality that does not exist in the raw game. It is affecting ROM or RAM, so this should outright not be published.
diggidoyo wrote:
Whether this code bars it from acceptance is to be seen.
The code is ONLY used to provide a smoother viewing experience.
But that's not what input files are for. That's what modified encodes are for. And those encodes tend to exist alongside encodes of the entire game, which, in this case, should include a bunch of pausing and menuing. Menuing which you claim detracts from the entertainment of the game, but accomplishes your goal of minimal realtime. Menuing which is a part of the game you are playing. Menuing which would be missing to anyone who is watching your speedrun after having played Mega Man 9 and wondering how to enable this fast weapon switching feature for themselves.
Furthermore, on the subject of whether or not this run includes cheats, in your own words,
diggidoyo wrote:
The term "cheat" has been incorrectly applied to my use of a tool, at least in the capacity with which I used it in this run.
I don't even need to add emphasis, because it's right there. The word "cheats", followed closely by the word "enabled". You cannot use them, the Movie Rules say that you cannot use them. You, yourself, say that you use them, and then you claim that you don't. DON'T USE CHEATS.
Finally,
diggidoyo wrote:
I find it perfectly acceptable to post in defense of my own submission
Sure, you can defend the quality and content of your submission all day. That's fine. What's being challenged here is your use of external, game-modifying code to arrive at the input file that you have submitted. Nobody has yet challenged your input file; it's the conditions under which that input file completes the game at are (to extend the 'defense' metaphor) under attack, and those are beyond defense.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Thank you, Invariel!
Disagreement to my opinion with supporting evidence as to why it's wrong!
There's a subtle difference between obtuse and uniformed, so maybe that's where the disconnect has been.
I didn't know what the code does behind the scenes, all I knew is how to use it.
Since it directly manipulates the ROM, I can see how it can not be separated from it's classification of a cheat.
That's really too bad, because without the code this run simply isn't feasible. At least not for me, but then again who am I?
You're the person who put together the rest of the input. You've routed the game and come up with strategies which, if played back on the actual game, would probably be TAS-worthy.
You have access to the input you used to make this run -- if you change all instances of fast weapon switching to be using the menus, you should have the same run except that it would be publishable on this site.
You've already done all of the hard work. Don't throw that away.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Would automatically replacing each instance of the weapon switching keys (I guess L or R) by the corresponding menu presses (select, wait some frames, press left or right and select again) make a valid entry, or is it much complicated? If the RNG isn't influenced, wouldn't this be enough?
Would automatically replacing each instance of the weapon switching keys (I guess L or R) by the corresponding menu presses (select, wait some frames, press left or right and select again) make a valid entry, or is it much complicated? If the RNG isn't influenced, wouldn't this be enough?
Even if this did work (and I don't know either way), it'd mean e.g. four pause screens if you hit L/R four times in rapid succession.
The big problem with using a non-cheated version of the game and then just making a special encode is that the music would end up skipping all over the place. Not that I disagree with the judge's decision otherwise.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
