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Post subject: AGDQ 2018 TAS content feedback thread
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Important: GDQ event planning is now taking place completely in the open, including any potential payload discussions. If you do not want to know what is being planned, do not read this thread. Additional planning discussion can also be found in the #tasbot IRC channel on Freenode. Updates are listed with the newest updates first. Update, 2018-01-14: AGDQ 2018 is over with over $74k raised as a result of TAS content donation incentives. Please see my post AGDQ 2018 initial update post for more details. Update, 2018-01-02: I (dwangoAC) am attending AGDQ 2018 as the primary presenter and organizer of the broader TASBot team, representing work from CyclopsDragon and a host of others on a Super Monkey Ball replay file "console verification" as well as a playaround of Super Dram World 2 by Masterjun. Unless something goes wrong on the tech side I'll also be doing 3 interview desk segments where I use TAS tools to praise runners for their aptitude in accomplishing difficult glitches; the games we're targeting are Donkey Kong Country 1/2 barrel glitch, Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island level 5-4 skip, and Rockman & Forte skips. Discussion will continue to occur on #tasbot in IRC as well as on the TASBot specific Discord server. Update, 2017-08-23: There is enough interest from people who are for certain going to AGDQ 2018 that we're now discussing what games to pitch in the thread. I've renamed the thread to reflect that this thread is now focused on AGDQ 2018 content but it makes sense to leave the past discussion in this thread rather than forking it off as it provides a historical perspective on how SGDQ 2017 submissions played out. Update, 2017-08-06: No TAS content was accepted for SGDQ 2017 and I will not likely be attending AGDQ 2018 due to financial constraints and an ongoing need to prioritize family. This means it is up to others to present a TAS block if the members of the site would like to see us represented. Update, 2017-03-01: I'm completely hijacking this portion of this post to say that I am not yet sure if I will be attending SGDQ 2017 and that even if I do attend I will not be organizing a TAS / TASBot block myself. I am open to someone else organizing something and even borrowing TASBot, and I am open to providing analysis in-between runs in a format that praises what a runner just did via TAS tools showing the trick they just performed in detail. I have made the hard decision to not participate in AGDQ 2018, both because I want to spend more time with my family and because I can't afford another expensive trip. For now, this thread can be used to discuss both SGDQ 2017 and AGDQ 2018 topics but it can be split in the future. Previous updates and ideas are listed below. Update, 2017-01-17: I am taking a break from all TASBot related activities. I've provided some background information on why I feel I should step back in the AGDQ 2017 thread. Original post: For SGDQ 2017 I'm deliberately planning on keeping things simple. There were some substantial opportunities at play for SGDQ 2016 that couldn't be ignored (the possibility and ultimately the success of console verifying Lost Levels, for one) but in general the summer events by necessity should be less technical and time-consuming in nature. To that end, things on this list of ideas are all ideas that require little to no work on hardware or console verification and focus more on showing what a TAS is and what's possible in with TAS tools through good commentary. If the entertainment and commentary are of high enough caliber I'm still open to use runs that aren't strictly console verified (Windows games in particular) but this is still a contentious issue. - [2539] NES River City Ransom "2 players" by Chamale in 05:56.76 but [1013] NES River City Ransom "playaround" by adelikat & JXQ in 12:55.38 could be fun as well - suggested by boct1584 - [711] NES Gradius by adelikat in 10:52.35 - suggested by a number of people including feos and boct1584 to show how far we've come with replay stability and finally show off the game properly - [717] NES Monopoly "4 CPUs" by FractalFusion in 01:07.67 - also suggested by boct1584 (he had a lot of good suggestions); would require rapid commentary and yelling "Time!" very early - 3D console ACE leading to demoscene style content; would require someone to create said content, but I think we might have a lead on an N64 total control (shh...) - Whatever doesn't fit in AGDQ 2017, currently dumped in here from there with no renumbering of idea numbers and with no expectation that these will all stay for SGDQ 2017 as some may get punted further to AGDQ 2018 when I get to that thread: Idea #1: Chaning consoles / console virus I will need a lot of volunteers for this one, and it's going to take several months of work which means it may have to slip to a future GDQ. Continuing the trend of AGDQ events being where we blow people's minds, I have an incredibly ambitious plan for AGDQ 2017. I hope to chain multiple consoles together and successively take total control of each console, forwarding button presses *out* the second (or higher) controller port by abusing the latch pin. This will require multiple people involved with hardware adaptation boards, total control runs, and payloads on each console. This will be the biggest undertaking the site has tried thus far, and is so ambitious that it may never happen, but for now I'm slating it for AGDQ 2017. This entire plan can be altered as needed in the coming months as we start exploring what is feasible and what is too difficult or impossible. In brief, if the general plan I have in mind is feasible, we will need the following volunteers:
  • Author for creating a Total Control / ACE TAS on NES
  • Author for creating a Total Control / ACE TAS on SNES
  • Author for creating a Total Control / ACE TAS on N64
  • Author for creating a Total Control / ACE TAS on Game Boy Advance (inside Game Boy Player)
  • Author for creating a Total Control / ACE TAS on Game Boy (inside Goomba emulator in GBA)
  • Payload (romhack) author for NES
  • Payload (romhack) author for SNES
  • Payload (romhack) author for N64
  • Payload (romhack) author for Game Boy (inside Goomba)
  • Hardware adapting NES signaling to SNES
  • Hardware adapting SNES signaling to N64
  • Hardware adapting N64 signaling to Game Boy Player
The dozen or more people needed above can all start work in parallel, and whatever portions start to come together first will be where we focus and then spread out, although I suspect we might end up in a situation where NES to SNES eventually works and GBA hacking works but we haven't yet bridged them or a similar scenario. For what games to perform Total Control on, it would be nice to target franchises that are popular, especially awesome if we can hit Zelda, Metroid, Donkey Kong Country, or similar franchises but there's every possibility we'll have to use a less mainstream title to get the kind of total control needed. As far as payload goes, the highest priority is on throughput of accepting input on player 1 and forwarding it to player 2 to allow downstream payload writing to be as quick as possible, using some of the techniques we've learned via doing SMB on SMW Pokemon Red Twitch chat payloads. For hardware, I expect entirely different solutions will be required for bridging each console generation with NES to SNES likely the easiest and N64 to GBP likely the hardest, with plenty of flexibility on how we accomplish the task. Updates, 2016-07-21: It's been nearly a year and no real progress has been made on the console chaining idea. It's not dead, as we've put a lot of thought into it, but it might not look like the suggestions above. One thing that may be a better choice is starting with a faster console (like GC or N64) and going toward older consoles, possibly using an unconventional method of connectivity like a link cable. We're just now starting to experiment with what's possible, but I'd really like to transition from the SGDQ 2016 gimmick where we showed four consoles running in parallel to an AGDQ 2017 gimmick where we show four consoles running chained one to another, each successively taken over. Since my original post, we now have a solid method of total control on NES via SMB3 with some other interesting options on the horizon and we've also made progress with N64 but there is still substantial risk for this idea. Updates, 2016-08-19: This may yet live on in a similar form to the above. I forgot that ais523 mentioned describing this as a console virus and he's right that tech journals would really dig that. However, to make this happen for AGDQ 2017 will require stripping it down to its barest essentials and going with what's easiest as no one has really stepped up outside of the regular crew to tackle the more challenging aspects of this idea. Left to our own devices, the core team that tends to do GDQ type stuff will probably come up with something zany based on what we know we can do. I must say, though, that early fears about reliability are really starting to dissipate now that we have the track records of success of the last couple of events and have more experience knowing where we need to mitigate risk. Idea #4 (added 2016-08-19): Music composition There's an unreleased game on the SNES named Sound Fantasy that I've done some testing with. In the first game mode it's possible to position notes in a way that allows for the creation of some pretty interesting music. We might even be able to pull off some kind of crazy Twitch Plays or something, but for now I just want someone to literally write a song. I have a potential resource for this who comes from a tracker music background. Idea #5 (added 2016-08-19): Twitch Plays Super Scribblenauts (pitching for the third time) OK, OK, I admit this hasn't quite worked out the last two times (the first time I voluntarily allowed it to be cut form AGDQ 2016 when there wasn't enough time left on the schedule and the second time they opted to go with VVVVVV instead, but I digress). I also admit that there's a great deal of confusion over what may be possible here. To that end, I have a volunteer who is working on coding up the infrastructure we need to test this with the goal of having a prototype in time for the AGDQ 2017 submissions. If it playtests well I'll definitely put this in, if it doesn't, I won't, simple as that. Idea #7 (added 2016-08-19): Mystery sports game I wish I could explain more, but there's an interesting option on the table to show some content from a disc-based sports game. More research is needed to determine if this is viable and would involve doing some emulation accuracy testing. If you want to volunteer for this, please let me know and I'll provide details offline. Idea #10 (added 2016-08-21): Tetris Grand Master or similar playaround Several of us have discussed this, including DeHackEd, boct1584, and myself. The Tetris blocks at GDQ events have been big hits, although SGDQ 2016 showed some signs of slowing. There may be a TAS entry point here. Update history 2016-08-19: Created topic with a handful of ideas, updated later with more 2016-09-03: Dumped a few AGDQ 2017 ideas we know we can't do in here for now 2017-02-17: Noted that I (dwangoAC) am taking a break from TASBot activities at GDQ events 2017-03-01: Added attendance disclaimer, defined thread topic, highlighted spoiler 2017-08-06: Stated my intention to not be at AGDQ 2018 due to personal constraints 2017-08-23: Changed thread title to reflect that we're working on AGDQ 2018 game selection 2018-01-03: Changed thread title to reflect that we're working on AGDQ 2018 preparations, add games list 2018-01-14: Added link to post AGDQ 2018 initial update post
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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I've attempted several times to get River City Random so sync on console with no success. Is there further progress on this?
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True wrote:
I've attempted several times to get River City Random so sync on console with no success. Is there further progress on this?
I don't own that game. I also don't own River City Ransom. Having said that, it could be an interesting run if we can figure out a sane way to make it work. I'll add it to the list.
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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It was in your list. Top of the list, in fact. I am mentioning that I have tried to verify every accepted TAS of this game and it does not sync... Edit: I did not note nor suggest River City Ransom, other than to say the game does not sync. All I am saying the game does not sync. Can I be any more clear?
true on twitch - lsnes windows builds 20230425 - the date this site is buried
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SDA has different rules for yelling "Time!" than TASvideos does. People wouldn't get the joke there unless it was explained in advance, which would ruin it. I think you'd have to physically disconnect the controller for the joke to work, but that has problems of its own (spurious button presses and the like). It's an idea that I'd like to see work, but I don't see a way that it does.
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True wrote:
Edit: I did not note nor suggest River City Ransom, other than to say the game does not sync. All I am saying the game does not sync. Can I be any more clear?
Right, agreed, we also don't even know if Monopoly will sync. That testing will come much later, around March of 2017; for now this many months in advance, this is just a place to throw ideas at the wall and see what sticks. I definitely got things crossed up and thought you were reaffirming a suggestion for the game, though - I've corrected the first post and added some clarifying text. Sorry about that.
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
Warepire
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Do the River City Ransom TASes sync on Alyoshas BizHawk? Maybe it can provide a few clues to why it doesn't sync on console.
BigBoct
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That game needs attention, I don't care which event it will be.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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boct1584 wrote:
What are everyone's opinions on [2529] Windows Hyper Princess Pitch "Reallyjoel's Mom difficulty, best ending" by Tseralith in 15:40.48 for SGDQ instead of AGDQ?
feos wrote:
That game needs attention, I don't care which event it will be.
I do wish that we could do this one but Warepire brought up some really good points on why it won't sync. As noted above, if there's sufficient reasons and it can be explained well enough I'm willing to accept SGDQ ideas that can't be console verified but I'd really prefer to save this until the aforementioned issues are resolved. Still, very cool run idea!
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
Warepire
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dwangoAC wrote:
boct1584 wrote:
What are everyone's opinions on [2529] Windows Hyper Princess Pitch "Reallyjoel's Mom difficulty, best ending" by Tseralith in 15:40.48 for SGDQ instead of AGDQ?
feos wrote:
That game needs attention, I don't care which event it will be.
I do wish that we could do this one but Warepire brought up some really good points on why it won't sync. As noted above, if there's sufficient reasons and it can be explained well enough I'm willing to accept SGDQ ideas that can't be console verified but I'd really prefer to save this until the aforementioned issues are resolved. Still, very cool run idea!
I should point out that there is no way the current Hyper Princess Pitch TAS can play back in -Resurrection once we gotten far enough to actually fix that issue. I think your best bet is trying to borrow a laptop where it works and use that.
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dwangoAC wrote:
I do wish that we could do this one but Warepire brought up some really good points on why it won't sync. As noted above, if there's sufficient reasons and it can be explained well enough I'm willing to accept SGDQ ideas that can't be console verified but I'd really prefer to save this until the aforementioned issues are resolved. Still, very cool run idea!
Give it a try anyway? It has always synced fine on my computer, so the technical problems described are obviously not always in place.
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- [2539] NES River City Ransom (USA) "2 players" in 5:56.76 by Chamale but [1013] NES River City Ransom (USA) "playaround" in 12:55.38 by adelikat & JXQ could be fun as well - suggested by boct1584
If you're going with a nekketsu game, then I vote Kunio-kun no Nekketsu Soccer League. I briefly TASed it, but didn't finish. It's a difficult project due to it being a complex game and 2 player, but I think it could be pretty cool for GDQ? Then again, international audience is probably too unfamiliar with that game. So go with Nintendo World Cup (the predecessor game). I actually had plans TASing that at some point.
Post subject: Would someone like to represent the site at SGDQ 2017?
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As I noted in the update I made to the first post, I do not currently plan to attend AGDQ 2018 and it is possible I will not attend SGDQ 2017 either in order to spend more time with my family and work on self-improvement. I will not lead or otherwise attempt to organize a TAS / TASBot block for either event, but I will fully support anyone who chooses to do so. I will gladly provide TASBot as needed and I can assist with PR during the event, but I cannot commit to the grueling process of organizing another event on the scale that past events have been. The only thing I'm considering doing just for SGDQ 2017 is providing Madden-style analysis between runs to praise a runner who has just performed a difficult trick by showing how the trick was executed using an emulator and TAS tools. The idea is similar to using slow motion to replay a sporting event while describing what took place, but in this case with the benefit of the entire arsenal of TAS tools in an emulator. This is not something I am committed to doing and I'd like to try it out on my stream (http://twitch.tv/dwangoAC) but it seems like an interesting idea. If anyone wants to step up for SGDQ 2017, now is the time to do so; submissions are only open from March 6th to March 11th and there is not much time left. If someone is interested in taking this on please post about it here. Thanks!
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
Alyosha
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I can't actually attend the event due to a prior commitment, but I would definitely like to help in organizing and preparing. So as long as there are presenters available count me in towards helping make this happen!
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I'm planning to attend SGDQ 2017 and as dwangoAC said submissions are coming up soon (3/6 - 3/11). Talking on irc it sounds like MediaMagnet will also be attending. I like dwangoAC's idea of having a TAS review of RTA tricks that were used/failed, though my ideas about how this would be accomplished differ a bit from his. I'm also considering submitting some NES TASes. I would submit as running on emulator as I do not currently have hardware to replay on console. I'd leave an option for hardware replay because I do plan on acquiring some hardware soon, but that would be only for if I get the hardware working and the runs sync. I would note that I am also planning to submit some of my own RTA stuff. Other good ideas are welcome as is more help :)
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[3153] NES Shadow of the Ninja (Japan) "1 player" by TASeditor in 09:30.41 would be a good contestant for showing many different aspects of TASing. It has very precise movement and tricks, many hidden parameters, a funny autoscroller and unfamiliar viewers should be able to follow the run more easily than some glitched Zelda 2. I don't mind if it is being played back in emulator.
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Alyosha
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Battletoads 2 player warps seems to sync pretty reliably on console from True's testing, so it might be a good candidate to play while talking more about how how TASing and emulation work while also being entertaining for the audience. I'm willing to work on anything NES related though.
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So what is the current thinking regarding submission for SGDQ 2017? Are you still planning on submitting anything link_7777?
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Yes, I'm still planning to submit, and obviously I need to lock everything down this week. I see that Shadow of the Ninja was suggested, but in case we end up on console I'd like to stick to titles that I have in my (limited) collection. With that limit in mind I'm thinking about submitting: Battletoads (2p warps seems like a good suggestion) Bionic Commando River City Ransom (playaround) I would also consider one of these (but I like them less as submissions for various reasons): Blaster Master Dragon Warrior The Legend of Zelda Kirby's Adventure Solomons Key Street Fighter 2010: The Final Fight Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles II: The Arcade Game Doing a sort of TAS review of RTA tricks seen in the marathon is also something I want to make sure gets submitted, but I need to sync up with dwangoAC on that topic.
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link_7777 wrote:
Doing a sort of TAS review of RTA tricks seen in the marathon is also something I want to make sure gets submitted, but I need to sync up with dwangoAC on that topic.
I don't think this is something that's going to be submitted but I need to hear back from staff on that. It certainly wouldn't be an actual run in the marathon as it'd be filler in-between runs. Seeing as registration filled up *really* fast I should work this out as soon as possible. I'll ping my contacts again and see if something breaks loose. My take: Don't bother with console verification for this marathon and instead focus on providing game-length commentary. Do try to do something that can be played back in an emulator rather than showing a video, though - we got a lot of flack for that...
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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What about also running some lua scripts that display stuff like hitboxes? That always feels neat imo.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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link_7777 wrote:
Yes, I'm still planning to submit, and obviously I need to lock everything down this week. I see that Shadow of the Ninja was suggested, but in case we end up on console I'd like to stick to titles that I have in my (limited) collection. With that limit in mind I'm thinking about submitting: Battletoads (2p warps seems like a good suggestion) Bionic Commando River City Ransom (playaround)
None of these uses the DMC channel so I should be able to work with them all pretty easily. (Battletoads being already known to work.) Personally I'd still want to see runs playing on console if at all possible, even if its along side the emulator with hitboxes and such as feos suggested, it just doesn't feel real without it.
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I figured it would be good to drop in with a quick update since I'll be writing up my submissions tomorrow. DwangoAC suggested sniq's super metroid, and while I don't have a particular interest in the game it does seem like it would appeal to the masses. As of now I'm planning to submit these three: 1. TAS Review. A segment where we review the frame windows of various tricks. 2. TASBot plays NES. This would include some set of Battletoads, Bionic Commando, and River City Ransom. 3. TASBot plays Super Metroid. I expect to submit with an emulator only assumption, though I'll keep a hardware option open for the NES titles
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HOORAAAAAY! Toads! But can tasbot really run super metroid?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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