I haven't seen one TAS here of a Japanese Mahjong game. I don't mean the classic ones where you have a formation of tiles and match them two at a time, I mean the tabletop game that's like poker, where you have two or four people playing at a time and they play till someone calls "Riichi" or "Tsumo".
I think it would be interesting to see. I have a WIP of a few NES mahjong games on my computer, but it's not with me right now.
A wise man once said "Damn, that's one hell of a steak."
You can find some of them on Nicovideo, but they aren't really interesting to watch, and it must be even worse if you don't know the rules of the game.
Link to video
I suppose Mahjong could perhaps be considered a "sport" game, which has certain requirements for being acceptable for publication: http://tasvideos.org/Vault.html
I'm not familiar with Mahjong at all, but I'm wondering if there could be cases where a fastest completion is non-trivial enough for a TAS (remember, we have NES Solitaire published). Or could some versions of Mahjong even allow for some sort of playaround?
Current project: Gex 3 any%
Paused: Gex 64 any%
There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.
I know a little bit about it, some friends I made on GameFAQs used to play and tried to teach me. Maybe a speedrun could have the goal of making every kind of hand as fast as possible?
I'm not familiar with Mahjong at all, but I'm wondering if there could be cases where a fastest completion is non-trivial enough for a TAS (remember, we have NES Solitaire published). Or could some versions of Mahjong even allow for some sort of playaround?
Theoretically, the fastest way to win is on the first turn (AKA "Heavenly Hand"), but the odds for that are really low even for a TAS (around 1 in 330000).
The main issue with a Mahjong TAS is that a full match consists of 16 hands, so it gets repetitive really fast.
I suppose Mahjong could perhaps be considered a "sport" game, which has certain requirements for being acceptable for publication: http://tasvideos.org/Vault.html
For those unfamiliar with Mahjong, it plays just like a card game, and in fact it has the same ancestor as Rummy. Basically, the goal is to complete specific combinations of melds in your hand, and rarer combinations are usually worth more points. The main difference with using tiles instead of cards is that discarded tiles don't need to be stacked up in a pile to fit on the table and can be tracked more easily.
Therefore, this game would fall in the board game category on TASVideos along with its additional publication restrictions, and considering the nature of the game, a TAS would basically end up manipulating the RNG to have winning opening hands, which isn't very entertaining to watch. Maybe a perfect score TAS would receive sufficient support for publication, but that would need to be verified.
YushiroGowa wrote:
I don't mean the classic ones where you have a formation of tiles and match them two at a time
Mahjong solitaire was invented as a computer game and released in 1981. Hardly classic compared to real Mahjong's rich history over multiple centuries.
I suppose Mahjong could perhaps be considered a "sport" game, which has certain requirements for being acceptable for publication: http://tasvideos.org/Vault.html
It looks more like a board game to me.
Do board games have their own section in the rules?
I suppose Mahjong could perhaps be considered a "sport" game, which has certain requirements for being acceptable for publication: http://tasvideos.org/Vault.html
It looks more like a board game to me.
Do board games have their own section in the rules?
For the purposes of this tier, a game which is a board game, educational game or game show game is not defined as a serious game. Fighting games such as Street Fighter are however, eligible.
Examples of unacceptable board games for this tier are Chess and Monopoly.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Considering we already have two Monopoly runs and a Clue run, I see no problem with a Mahjong run either.
It strikes me that the rule against board games was written because chess TAS'es mainly focus on breaking a poorly written AI, and this rule hasn't considered the plethora of other board games that aren't chess or checkers or go.
Me neither - if, like those runs you quote, a Mahjong TAS can make it to Moons, I'll gladly support it.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Sure, but that was 2.5 years ago. Also, that discussion is primarily about reworking the tier system, and only secondarily about board games. Clearly one can allow board games without having to change the tier system.
Mothrayas wrote:
Me neither - if, like those runs you quote, a Mahjong TAS can make it to Moons, I'll gladly support it.
There are four boardgame runs in the Vault. I see no reason why the vault should have a clause agaist board games (other than perhaps two-player non-random board games like chess).
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4083
Location: The Netherlands
Radiant wrote:
Sure, but that was 2.5 years ago.
No relevant rule has changed since then.
Radiant wrote:
Also, that discussion is primarily about reworking the tier system, and only secondarily about board games. Clearly one can allow board games without having to change the tier system.
The idea of accepting board games to the Vault came up a lot in that topic. It's still relevant.
Radiant wrote:
The definition of board game, for Vault rule purposes, is a game which is a board game in its original form - hence its examples of Chess and Monopoly.
The games you mention, like Mario Party, are not board game adaptations, they are video games first and foremost.
Radiant wrote:
I see no reason why the vault should have a clause agaist board games (other than perhaps two-player non-random board games like chess).
Read the linked topic, which you clearly decided to dismiss before reading. It provides plenty of reasons for why that rule is as it currently is.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
It strikes me that the rule against board games was written because chess TAS'es mainly focus on breaking a poorly written AI, and this rule hasn't considered the plethora of other board games that aren't chess or checkers or go.
I wouldn't mind a chess game TAS, and I don't see why that genre should be ruled out by default. If someone wants to submit a TAS of a chess game, let them, and we'll see how it fares in the poll.
But I will grant that unless the game has something special about it (like some kind of "story mode"), it can be difficult to justify. You could take some, let's say, SNES chess game, play it at its hardest difficulty, and use a modern top engine (like Stockfish) to beat it as optimally as possible, but then it just becomes a display of how a modern chess engine using modern hardware can crush an SNES era engine.
Of course even that in itself would be interesting to me, at least. And it would be, in a sense, a tool-assisted "superplay" (the modern chess engine being part of the toolset), so in that sense it would fit quite well.
(If the counter-argument would be that it wouldn't be very interesting to most people... well, I'm sure that from the thousands of TASes that have been published, you can find some that most people aren't interested in. I don't think that should automatically be grounds for rejection.)
Obviously that's the point: we're suggesting that a relevant rule be changed. Stating that it has not so far been changed is not much of a counterargument :)
The games you mention, like Mario Party, are not board game adaptations, they are video games first and foremost.
Well, that's a good distinction; it would help if the Vault rules page actually mentioned that. It seems that the rule against board games hasn't been updated in years.
Me neither - if, like those runs you quote, a Mahjong TAS can make it to Moons, I'll gladly support it.
The problem is that those two runs are extremely short. Yes, they are in the moon tier, but it's questionable if that is due to how entertaining they are or due to the popularity of those particular games. A Mahjong TAS that is just as fast would be very likely to get a lower rating just because it's Mahjong. In the worst case, we would see a TAS rejected that is technically much more impressive.
Current project: Gex 3 any%
Paused: Gex 64 any%
There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4083
Location: The Netherlands
Warp wrote:
(If the counter-argument would be that it wouldn't be very interesting to most people... well, I'm sure that from the thousands of TASes that have been published, you can find some that most people aren't interested in. I don't think that should automatically be grounds for rejection.)
We can't please everybody, but we can aim to at least provide a reasonable set of TASes that are generally considered entertaining, or at least interesting/worthwhile as speed records for the Vault. Board games largely fail both criteria, so that's why they're not accepted for the Vault.
Radiant wrote:
Obviously that's the point: we're suggesting that a relevant rule be changed. Stating that it has not so far been changed is not much of a counterargument :)
Your reaction to the topic was "but that was 2.5 years ago", as if the passing of time had made that topic irrelevant. The point is it did not become irrelevant, because no relevant factors changed.
Radiant wrote:
Well, that's a good distinction; it would help if the Vault rules page actually mentioned that. It seems that the rule against board games hasn't been updated in years.
It has never been updated because it had never needed an update. Until today, nobody was confused about what was meant by "board game" when examples of Monopoly and Chess were given.
andypanther wrote:
The problem is that those two runs are extremely short. Yes, they are in the moon tier, but it's questionable if that is due to how entertaining they are or due to the popularity of those particular games. A Mahjong TAS that is just as fast would be very likely to get a lower rating just because it's Mahjong. In the worst case, we would see a TAS rejected that is technically much more impressive.
If a Mahjong movie really is technically impressive and interesting (comparable to at least the Monopoly runs), it would have a viable shot at reaching Moons. If it has no hope outside of the Vault, then chances are it really just is not technically impressive or interesting enough to begin with.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Sorry for going a bit on a tangent, off topic even, but if you would forgive me.
Due to what I wrote above about running Stockfish against an SNES chess game, for the heck of it I tried what would happen if I played against The Chessmaster for the SNES, at its strongest, using Stockfish 8. (Obviously I sped up the emulator, or else the game would have taken something like 3 hours).
This is the resulting game, for anybody who cares (Stockfish playing white, The Chessmaster playing black):
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 d6 8. c3 O-O 9. h3 Na5 10. Bc2 c5 11. d4 Qc7 12. Nbd2 cxd4 13. cxd4 Bb7 14. d5 Rac8 15. Bd3 Nd7 16. Nf1 f5 17. b3 fxe4 18. Bxe4 Nc5 19. Bc2 Nd7 20. Ne3 Bf6 21. Bf5 e4 22. Nd4 Qc3 23. Rb1 Qxd4 24. Bxd7 Qxd1 25. Rxd1 Ra8 26. Be6+ Kh8 27. Bd2 Bd8 28. Bb4 Bb6 29. Bxd6 Rfd8 30. Be5 Bc8 31. Nf5 Ra7 32. Rbc1 Bxe6 33. dxe6 Rxd1+ 34. Rxd1 Kg8 35. Rd6 Rb7 36. e7 Kf7 37. Re6 Rxe7 38. Rxe7+ Kg8 39. Re8+ Kf7 40. Nd6+ Kg6 41. Re6+ Kh5 42. g4+ Kg5 43. Nxe4+ Kh4 44. Kg2 Bxf2 45. Rh6+ gxh6 46. Bf6# 1-0
The 14 or so first moves were book moves by Chessmaster, so they are pretty standard. It starts falling apart quite quickly after that.
When doing this, I was tempted by the idea of actually making a TAS of it and submitting. But I suppose it would be just a waste of everybody's time because it would probably just be rejected outright (not least because it would be something like 2 or 3 hours long).
