(Link to video)
Submission Text Full Submission Page
Battle for Bikini Bottom has a surprisingly diverse range of tricks, clips, and momentum exploits. Any% with In-Game Codes shows off a short and sweet demonstration of the Tool-Assisted potential in this game.

Game objective: Defeat the final boss as quickly as possible (with use of in-game codes).

Important info for syncing the dtm of this TAS:

  • Game ISO MD5 checksum of "9e18f9a0032c4f3092945dc38a6517d3".
  • Frame limit set to auto.
  • Dual Core and Idle Skipping turned off.
  • LLE Recompiler Audio.
  • Do not use a Memory Card.
  • I can provide an SRAM file if need be.

Comments.

The single requirement to complete Battle for Bikini Bottom —to unlock the final bosses— is having 75 Golden Spatulas, or more, to open the door inside the Chum Bucket. One of the in-game codes used, to receive 10 spatulas —entered as "X,Y,Y,X,X,Y,Y,X" in the menu while holding R and L— is activated 8 times throughout the run. The other codes used in conjunction, simply to speed up movement and add routing options, include unlocking the two main upgrades, Bubble Bowl (X,Y,X,Y,X,X,Y,Y) and Cruise Bubble (Y,X,Y,X,Y,Y,X,X); as well as the Cruise Control code (X,X,X,X,Y,Y,X,X,Y,X,Y,Y), which speeds up the Cruise Bubble animation. All codes were typed in the optimal order, as codes that start/end with differing inputs can be typed 1 frame after the previous, as opposed to 2 frames if they start and end on the same button. There is also a limit to how many codes can be entered in an 5 second window, 8, so the codes were added in separate bursts.

The main tricks used in this run include:

Instant Cruise Boost(ICB), Displacement Bubble Bowl (Boost) (DBB(B)), L Clip, Spongeball Displacement, "NNJ", Ledge Grab Clip, Bubble Ball Clip.

ICB:

A Cruise Boost (CB) is a trick performed by using both Cruise Bubble and Bubble Bowl on the same frame, with momentum, while in a static position. CB's store your momentum and lock it in the direction of SpongeBob's facing angle. Instant Cruise Boosts (ICB) are performed by doing a CB on the frame before running into collision, while the exact distance away from that collision as your momentum while carry you over the following frame. On flat ground, optimal ICBs increase momentum by 5 units each time they're performed, and do stack, though they become more and more precise the more momentum you have. (Regular CBs do not stack). ICBs and CBs both overwrite scripted momentum on things like trampolines.

Displacement Bubble Bowl:

Bubble Bowl speed is determined by the distance covered on the initiating frame of the animation. Walking on flat ground, Bubble Bowls are 5 speed. On descending ground, they may sometimes reach 8-10. The biggest displacement in this run, using Spongeball Displacement, results in 146 speed. Generally when a displacement is this big, we add "Boost" to the end of the title of this trick.

L Clip:

Using Cruise Missile (pressing L) can allow SpongeBob to clip thin walls and tight spaces if he has enough speed. It can be used in combination with Displacement Bubble Bowl, sometimes called an "L bowl", to clip much thicker walls.

Spongeball Displacement:

When using the Spongeball power up which is laying around some areas of the game, your last interaction with collision, if there was one, is stored as you finish the transformation animation. This often doesn't amount to anything, unless the collision was moving, then when you release the Spongeball, you will be displaced with the direction and momentum of the collision stored.

NNJ:

This trick does not have an official name, but is jokingly referred to as NNJ in the small BfBB TAS community. It's the trick used during the "Kah - Rah - Tae!" Robo SpongeBob battle, to jump into an invisible trigger which ends the fight instantly. By balancing on top of a Bubble Ball, and throwing another one, it's possible to be pushed up onto and follow the second ball, then use it's rational momentum to jump extremely high. This is by far the worst trick to TAS, as you have no influence over SpongeBob once the second Bubble Bowl animation is initiated. You must be precisely positioned, with the perfect amount of momentum, such that you do not fall off the rolling ball before throwing the second ball, and even then, you need the proper facing angle to be pushed onto that ball.

Ledge Grab Clip:

This is exactly what it sounds like. When grabbing a ledge in BfBB, other collision is ignored. Due to misalignments, some floors and ceilings can be clipped through from below by jumping at them and ledge grabbing specific areas.

Bubble Ball Clip:

Used in the "The Small Shall Rule... Or Not" brain interior, the Bubble Ball can be clipped through collision, as long as SpongeBob's right hand (where the ball appears when thrown) is pushed up against a wall in a very specific way.

Stage by stage comments

SpongeBob's Pineapple

This TAS starts by cheating in Bubble Bowl, Cruise Bubble, and Cruise Control, along with 50 Spatulas (in sets of 10). As mentioned, it's faster to enter all 11 codes used in this run in two separate bursts. Once the first set of codes are entered, an ICB is used to reach the door to leave.

Bikini Bottom HUB

A well placed Bubble Bowl is thrown such that it bounces off collision enough to end up by the Poseidome gate, and be moving slow enough to catch up to, after preforming an ICB on Plankton. A Displacement Bubble Bowl Boost (DBBB) and L Clip are performed to bypass the gate. The Bubble Bowl, again, is aimed to bounce off objects such that it slows down and can be caught up to. An ICB is performed on the Jellyfish manipulated into position through prior movement. Now using Sponge Ball, the rational momentum of the Bubble Ball is stored, as well as it's position relative to SpongeBob, which together cause a massive displacement when Spongeball is deactivated, used to DBBB and L clip all the way to the Chum Bucket entrance. The remaining Cheats are entered before opening the door.

Chum Bucket

Nothing particularly interesting or complicated happens here. An ICB is performed and the cutscenes are overlapped by activating one and sliding into the next.

Kah - Rah - Tae!

As explained earlier, an NNJ is used to reach the trigger (likely accidentally left in by developers) which instantly ends the fight.

The Small Shall Rule... Or Not

Stacking two ICBs, SpongeBob has more than enough momentum to exploit the height of the first trampoline —which normally bounces you to the right— and land on unintended collision above the starting platform. From there, an L clip is used to get inside Robo SpongeBob's brain. The stage, and speedrun, are completed when all 3 fuses in the brain are destroyed and the final cutscene initiated. Using a serious of Ledge Grab Clips and a well placed Bubble Ball Clip, all fuses are destroyed from within.

Memory: Claiming for judging
Memory: The TAS looks fairly optimized.
The main controversy surrounding this submission was the usage of cheat codes. Multiple codes were used here, some unlocking abilities from later in the game, and others giving high quantities of the main collectible which allows for going to the final boss of the game immediately. A lot of people felt that the usage of the latter cheat code greatly cheapened the TAS. The votes reflected this with 21 No votes and only 6 Yes votes and 1 Meh vote. This means that without a doubt, this TAS cannot be accepted into Moons.
Our rules state that cheat codes are not allowed. This is not a strict rule, some codes may be acceptable under certain circumstances but otherwise we want to avoid it. With Vault, we are much stricter and code usage is limited to unlocking hard modes or additional level sets.
Some people may wonder why we have such rules. Why can't we be like speedrun.com and let game communities decide for themselves? The difference between speedrun.com and TASVideos is that speedrun.com is a platform on which communities can share content, and host their leaderboards, whereas TASVideos is a publisher of TASes.
What being a publisher means is that we offer different services from something like speedrun.com. The submissions we accept have been vetted by the judges and the community to ensure that the movie is of the utmost quality. Sometimes during the submission process, we manage to improve upon the original submission and will update it so that the movie is still able to go through acceptance. We then host the input files for these accepted TASes on our site and they become accessible for all time. We host videos of these TASes that our encoders try to ensure is of the highest quality and may correct graphical glitches caused by bad emulation or otherwise make things more appealing to the viewer.
Due to these services we offer, we restrict what we accept to that which is considered entertaining (Moons and Stars) and that which beats traditional records (Vault). Both types of movies need to follow our rules as well. Accepting codes to allow for faster completion in Vault would have a dramatic effect on the whole site. For games with level select codes you may simply choose to play the final level. For games with invincibility codes, enemies and obstacles would become less important to dodge. It would drastically lower the technical standards for entry onto our site. This is similar to our stance on easy modes. Adittionally, the Battle for Bikini leaderboard caters towards those interested in Battle for Bikini Bottom specifically. Our website caters to people interested in a much wider variety of TAS content. Allowing this run as a fastest completion of sorts would be incredibly strange since clear legitimacy is one of our defining features.
In conclusion this run is not Vaultable, and since the audience feedback was quite poor, cannot go to Moons either. There is very likely a place for this run, but TASVideos is not that place.
It has been stated that there has been a high amount of discoveries as of late, making it difficult to do a proper full game TAS. This is not a reason for us to accept a shortened TAS that breaks the rules instead. If a new discovery happens during the creation of a TAS and is not able to be implemented without great effort, we allow such movies to be accepted regardless.
Additionally the author stated that the game tends to have sync issues with movies longer than 15 minutes. I would like to direct to the Dolphin Issue tracker where one may report this issue to the Dolphin developers.
Some people have asked whether or not this run would be acceptable without the code that specifically increases the amount of spatulas you have. The point of the rule is to reduce that which simplifies gameplay. While the codes would provide more options earlier in the game, it would potentially reduce the complexity of routing around not having these sorts of abilities. Creativity is often the result of trying to overcome obstacles. One could arguably compare it to a New Game+ mode of sorts, but it's a tad more arbitrary than such since it uses cheat codes instead. Such a run might also cause some people to ask why allow these codes but not the one that results in receiving the collectibles. Since this would not be a built in game mode, it would be much more arbitrarily defined.
In any case, rejecting.

TASVideoAgent
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Memory
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[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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What ever happened to entertainment value? Lmao. This is a well respected category in the community with unique and interesting tech/route. What a silly blanket rule.
Completed: 2010-Current | Sonic Adventure 2: Battle - Individual Level TASes 2014 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Any% in 1:05:03.23 2014 | Sonic Adventure 2: Battle - Hero Story (w/ THC98) in 25:11.87 2016 | Metroid Prime - Any% in 00:37 (In-Game Time) 2018 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Cheat% in 1:42.350 2020 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Any% in 0:39:20.10 2022 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Cheat% in 1:25.567 Currently working on: METROID PRIME ANY%
EZGames69
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itsPersonnal wrote:
What ever happened to entertainment value? Lmao. This is a well respected category in the community with unique and interesting tech/route. What a silly blanket rule.
well using cheat codes like this isnt very respected in this community.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't 12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!" Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish [Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
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EZGames69 wrote:
itsPersonnal wrote:
What ever happened to entertainment value? Lmao. This is a well respected category in the community with unique and interesting tech/route. What a silly blanket rule.
well using cheat codes like this isnt very respected in this community.
The cheat codes allow for more interesting tricks right off the bat, showing what is possible to do with the game's mechanics. Not allowing cheat codes in this manner does not make any sense and is extremely close-minded.
EZGames69
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Zuzur wrote:
EZGames69 wrote:
itsPersonnal wrote:
What ever happened to entertainment value? Lmao. This is a well respected category in the community with unique and interesting tech/route. What a silly blanket rule.
well using cheat codes like this isnt very respected in this community.
The cheat codes allow for more interesting tricks right off the bat, showing what is possible to do with the game's mechanics. Not allowing cheat codes in this manner does not make any sense and is extremely close-minded.
can these tricks not be done in normal any% runs?
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't 12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!" Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish [Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
Joined: 10/17/2018
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EZGames69 wrote:
Zuzur wrote:
EZGames69 wrote:
itsPersonnal wrote:
What ever happened to entertainment value? Lmao. This is a well respected category in the community with unique and interesting tech/route. What a silly blanket rule.
well using cheat codes like this isnt very respected in this community.
The cheat codes allow for more interesting tricks right off the bat, showing what is possible to do with the game's mechanics. Not allowing cheat codes in this manner does not make any sense and is extremely close-minded.
can these tricks not be done in normal any% runs?
Tricks like cruise boosting and such can only be done in the late game, where 2/3 of the game has already been completed. By unlocking them early, we can do sections of the game that would be otherwise be slow and boring fast and entertaining.
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Is it April Fools 2019? Oh wait no, we're in October 2018.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
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EZGames69
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Zuzur wrote:
EZGames69 wrote:
Zuzur wrote:
EZGames69 wrote:
itsPersonnal wrote:
What ever happened to entertainment value? Lmao. This is a well respected category in the community with unique and interesting tech/route. What a silly blanket rule.
well using cheat codes like this isnt very respected in this community.
The cheat codes allow for more interesting tricks right off the bat, showing what is possible to do with the game's mechanics. Not allowing cheat codes in this manner does not make any sense and is extremely close-minded.
can these tricks not be done in normal any% runs?
Tricks like cruise boosting and such can only be done in the late game, where 2/3 of the game has already been completed. By unlocking them early, we can do sections of the game that would be otherwise be slow and boring fast and entertaining.
It would be more entertaining to see a full run of this game without using cheat codes not told to you by the game itself.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't 12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!" Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish [Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
Xindictive
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You can still have an interesting and entertaining TAS without the need of cheats. It is very possible to make such a TAS with this game. The cheats you used ultimately make this look extremely weak and boring, no matter what tricks you used here. It's also, as Memory stated, against Movie Rules to use cheats in the way you did. Just because your community accepts it, doesn't mean the whole TAS community is going to give you a passing mark and a pat on the back. Give us a normal any% tas with some of what you showed and maybe that'll be accepted and good, but otherwise, this TAS is doneso.
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The ruling for this TAS will probably be similar to that of #3831: SwordlessLink's N64 Diddy Kong Racing "Glitched NewGame+" in 04:09.25. (There's probably an even closer analogy but I can't think of one immediately.)
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TASVideoAgent wrote:
he single requirement to complete Battle for Bikini Bottom —to unlock the final bosses— is having 75 Golden Spatulas, or more, to open the door inside the Chum Bucket. One of the in-game codes used, to receive 10 spatulas —entered as "X,Y,Y,X,X,Y,Y,X" in the menu while holding R and L— is activated 8 times throughout the run.
I mean, I'd rather see more of the game, not less of it. Even if you want to show off all the movement tech early, what's the point if you're just gonna go straight to the end anyway? My personal opinion is that not every TAS movie on this planet needs to be on the site, and that's not a bad thing. Sure, there is some value in knowing what the fastest possible TAS could be permitting the use of in-game cheat codes, especially if it's a category there is a lot of RTA competition in. It's also a great demonstration of the game's movement tech. However, in the framework of the site's movie rules, cheat codes are simply not acceptable. Not knowing the game, this short movie does well as a demonstration of what the movement can be like in a TAS setting. I really want to see a full any% TAS now, going through the entire thing normally. But for this one, it's a No vote I'm afraid.
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So I'm voting yes for five reasons. The first is this is a very competitive category in the community, with 87 people having done runs of it. (RTA WR right here https://www.speedrun.com/bfbb/run/m3orlwgm). Thus, it's recognized as legitimate in the RTA community. The second is there are no warp codes in the game, thus this is genuinely the fastest way to beat the game without any external hacks, which means the run is not arbitrarily restricting itself further and this would be the fastest way to beat the game from power on unless you were to specifically ban in-game codes, which would just be Any%. The third is that other well-respected categories use in-game codes in order to simulate different contexts to run, for example NG+ and 100% w/In-game cheats, which are also high tech categories that use the exact same codes as this run, so banning this under this blanket rule would also ban these categories from submission. (Seriously, watch some NG+ runs and contrast them with Any% if you don't believe me. https://www.speedrun.com/bfbb/full_game#NG%2B) The fourth is we have runs on the site ALREADY that use in-game codes to simulate certain situations, for example the currently starred Biker Mice From Mars run ( http://tasvideos.org/802M.html ), or how about skipping half the game with a level password? ( http://tasvideos.org/1296M.html ). Oh but wait, I thought in-game codes were forbidden? I mean, that's what the rule says:
Movie Rules wrote:
"Cheats, debugging codes, and arcade continues are not allowed This includes any in-game codes[1], input sequences such as the Konami Code, as well as immediately accessible hidden menus."
With the addendum:
Movie Rules wrote:
" When we speak about codes that are part of a game that we allow for use in certain scenarios, we are talking about passwords that can be entered in a menu, pressing some buttons on the title screen, passing execution parameters or setting environment variables for DOS games, or anything of a similar nature. This excludes things like Game Genie codes or emulator cheating tools. Codes are considered secret if the game never tells them to the player, neither through official instructions nor during gameplay."
Which would actually mean movies, that, for example, use a level password ( http://tasvideos.org/Movies-C4020Y.html ) would be banned under this rule if it were strict, which it specifies it isn't:
Movie Rules wrote:
'These rules are not strict, but are motivated by the same concept as the guideline that says you should play on the hardest difficulty. As such, you can use a code to unlock the hardest difficulty, although it's better to first ask on the forums if this is a good idea. Indeed, sometimes it may make the movie worse!'
Which would kind of indicate that there needs to be more discussion about this then, like, linking to the rules and voting No, don't you think? Thus the fifth reason is, well, I like the movie and would like to see it published. A lot of really cool tricks were used to beat the game extremely quickly, including TAS-only instant cruise boosts, and it really demonstrates how broken the game can be. Final note:
New999 wrote:
You can still have an interesting and entertaining TAS without the need of cheats. It is very possible to make such a TAS with this game. The cheats you used ultimately make this look extremely weak and boring, no matter what tricks you used here. It's also, as Memory stated, against Movie Rules to use cheats in the way you did. Just because your community accepts it, doesn't mean the whole TAS community is going to give you a passing mark and a pat on the back. Give us a normal any% tas with some of what you showed and maybe that'll be accepted and good, but otherwise, this TAS is doneso.
Go away with this extreme condescension that implies she DIDN'T work hard on this TAS and she wants this accepted for 'a pat on the back'. That's extremely elitist to assume. Let's actually discuss the merits of this movie instead.
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Are you just playing dumb deliberately? 1. Just stated, just because it's acceptable with them, doesn't mean it's acceptable with the main community. When it comes to this, just because they can use an invincibility code or an all abilities code for a category they made up, doesn't mean it's THAT legitimate. 2. That's basically what people are saying and agreeing with, banning specific in-game codes. But there's a funny thing you mention here and i'll bring it up with your Point 4, because it's quite honestly your biggest contradiction here. 3. You can still use alot of this tech without the need of cheating. The logic those runners use with the category is not universally accepted. They can use cheats for their runs if they want, but it doesn't mean the runs are valid just because it's accepted in their circle. 4. Every example you brought up are using LEVEL CODES. WARP CODES. Looking through all of them, i didn't see ANYTHING that screams "All Abilities Cheat Used" or "Used a cheat to gain this many key items so i can skip 90% of the game by going through all the locks". If this were allowed, then you might aswell allow Mega Man TASers and runners to go buck wild on using a code to unlock all abilities you have to unlock before fighting the first boss and act like THAT is a legit run. Level codes are allowed, for the most part. Cheats that unlock or give you items in a non-legit way aren't allowed. This run isn't valid and those RTA runs aren't legit. 5. Good for you. I also like some of the tech used. However, it can be used in a much better way instead of the way it was done here and the way it WAS done here hurts this TAS greatly, so ultimately it's a no for me. Lastly, whatever merits this TAS has became null and void once the rules were broken. Call me an "elitist" all you want, but she's in the wrong and you're really only weakening this TAS further with this pathetic evidence.
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New999 wrote:
1. Just stated, just because it's acceptable with them, doesn't mean it's acceptable with the main community. When it comes to this, just because they can use an invincibility code or an all abilities code for a category they made up, doesn't mean it's THAT legitimate. 2. That's basically what people are saying and agreeing with, banning specific in-game codes. But there's a funny thing you mention here and i'll bring it up with your Point 4, because it's quite honestly your biggest contradiction here. 3. You can still use alot of this tech without the need of cheating. The logic those runners use with the category is not universally accepted. They can use cheats for their runs if they want, but it doesn't mean the runs are valid just because it's accepted in their circle.
If we're going to get into semantics, every speedrun is just agreed upon rules for competition. 100% and low% for example are only considered more valid generally speaking due to in-game percentages, and many games don't even have those, yet they are accepted on the site regardless. There's plenty of TAS movies that can be considered just as arbitrary due to exactly what you just said, 'The logic those runners use with the category is not universally accepted. ' Because we've never accepted TASes that are for specific routes in order to demonstrate unique ways to play the games before, I suppose? Universal standards can't realistically apply to every category in existence. For example, http://tasvideos.org/2661M.html this Symphony of the Night run obsoletes a run that would more rigorously defined by the actual game to be 'true' 100%. Does this make Forgone's run more arbitrary as a result? I wouldn't say so.
New999 wrote:
4. Every example you brought up are using LEVEL CODES. WARP CODES. Looking through all of them, i didn't see ANYTHING that screams "All Abilities Cheat Used" or "Used a cheat to gain this many key items so i can skip 90% of the game by going through all the locks". If this were allowed, then you might aswell allow Mega Man TASers and runners to go buck wild on using a code to unlock all abilities you have to unlock before fighting the first boss and act like THAT is a legit run. Level codes are allowed, for the most part. Cheats that unlock or give you items in a non-legit way aren't allowed. This run isn't valid and those RTA runs aren't legit.
It's funny you mention that, because there ARE runs on the site that do this. http://tasvideos.org/802M.html The Biker Mice From Mars TAS, as I've already stated, uses an in-game code that 'allows me to start at the last (sixth) round of at the Championship mode with Vinnie, at difficulty level 'Super Hard'. It also gives me fully upgraded 'Engine'-parts and 'Shot'-parts.' http://tasvideos.org/2059M.html This currently published Mega Man X TAS uses a failed code to get all the weapons and skip half the game without the dash boots. So using your own definition, that is 'Cheats that unlock or give you items in a non-legit way aren't allowed. ', this means these runs are illegitimate then. If you agree they are legitimate, how is doing the same thing here not acceptable but these runs doing it is? You also didn't read the specification of the rule regarding codes, that is:
Movie Rules wrote:
" When we speak about codes that are part of a game that we allow for use in certain scenarios, we are talking about passwords that can be entered in a menu, pressing some buttons on the title screen, passing execution parameters or setting environment variables for DOS games, or anything of a similar nature. This excludes things like Game Genie codes or emulator cheating tools. Codes are considered secret if the game never tells them to the player, neither through official instructions nor during gameplay."
I specified BfBB doesn't have warp codes to demonstrate this is the fastest way to beat the game without, like, making the category 'All Cheats Except That One', or something. If the game had a warp code then it'd be a more complicated issue, but it doesn't. Regardless, level codes would fall under the exact same blanket definition you're saying should cause this run to not be accepted. That's why it's not very useful for discussing this run's merits, there's already been precedent for this exact same thing.
New999 wrote:
5. Good for you. I also like some of the tech used. However, it can be used in a much better way instead of the way it was done here and the way it WAS done here hurts this TAS greatly, so ultimately it's a no for me. Lastly, whatever merits this TAS has became null and void once the rules were broken. Call me an "elitist" all you want, but she's in the wrong and you're really only weakening this TAS further with this pathetic evidence.
I don't think evidence can get much stronger the directly quoting the rules and how the rules are being implemented on the site. I guess we should remove all those other TASes then since they also 'break' the same rule you're trying to defend, which is of course an absurd thing to do for a hobby geared towards entertainment and optimization of specific rule sets.
effort on the first draft means less effort on any draft thereafter - some loser
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Stop arguing about the letter of the law and start considering the spirit of it. The way I see it, cheat codes that only make the game faster are banned, because that's not entertaining. While we love seeing games done fast, we also want to be entertained with the run and its complexity and routing. In-game codes that make the run more entertaining (whether it be from making it harder or skipping the boring stuff) are the kind that are more acceptable. In this run, the cheats only make the run faster. It skips right to the final boss. That's not an interesting run. Voting "No" because this category isn't entertaining. This is a game that can do much better. I also feel like I'm perfectly in the audience of whom exactly this movie is for. I'm a speedrunner kinda who really enjoyed this game as a kid, but I've only invested into this game casually. I think I hit both main audiences for this run, even though I'm also sort of familiar with the RTA runs and their tech. I'd much rather see 100% or 200%. 200% is a run that uses cheat codes to obtain every spatula and move from the start, but then goes and collects everything normally. I think it's a great example of a run where cheat codes improve the entertainment value of the run.
EZGames69
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arandomgameTASer wrote:
The fourth is we have runs on the site ALREADY that use in-game codes to simulate certain situations, for example the currently starred Biker Mice From Mars run ( http://tasvideos.org/802M.html ), or how about skipping half the game with a level password? ( http://tasvideos.org/1296M.html ).
Would you care to compare the context of why those movies use codes with the context of this movie? Just because a code is used in other movies doesn’t mean it’s used to the same exact effect as this one.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't 12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!" Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish [Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
Memory
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arandomgameTASer wrote:
http://tasvideos.org/802M.html The Biker Mice From Mars TAS, as I've already stated, uses an in-game code that 'allows me to start at the last (sixth) round of at the Championship mode with Vinnie, at difficulty level 'Super Hard'. It also gives me fully upgraded 'Engine'-parts and 'Shot'-parts.'
That TAS should have never been accepted imo. We may make some mistakes in the past that lead to movies being published that shouldn't have. These movies do not qualify as precedents.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Spikestuff
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Memory wrote:
arandomgameTASer wrote:
http://tasvideos.org/802M.html The Biker Mice From Mars TAS, as I've already stated, uses an in-game code that 'allows me to start at the last (sixth) round of at the Championship mode with Vinnie, at difficulty level 'Super Hard'. It also gives me fully upgraded 'Engine'-parts and 'Shot'-parts.'
That TAS should have never been accepted imo. We may make some mistakes in the past that lead to movies being published that shouldn't have. These movies do not qualify as precedents.
I'm pretty sure the last time Bike Mice from Mars was used as a point of argument it was used cause it was against the ideas that it skipped a large portion of the game, and upgraded the bike to max stats and a more vanilla approach would be much needed. If that Biker TAS was submitted under today's standards it would be rejected even though it is entertaining. You can use this Top Gear as a point of reference on that one (Besides the fact it was subopitmal at points).
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account. Something better for yourself and also others.
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Why use cheat codes at all anyway? This game seems smooth enough that it would make an entertaining run without them. As it stands, I second what most people say about cheat codes. Voting no.
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Joined: 1/20/2012
Posts: 534
scrimpeh wrote:
My personal opinion is that not every TAS movie on this planet needs to be on the site, and that's not a bad thing. Sure, there is some value in knowing what the fastest possible TAS could be permitting the use of in-game cheat codes, especially if it's a category there is a lot of RTA competition in. It's also a great demonstration of the game's movement tech. However, in the framework of the site's movie rules, cheat codes are simply not acceptable.
Can't argue with that I suppose. I do think you guys are a little behind the times, having blanket rules like this. Most all other TAS and non-TAS communities I'm aware of tend to have more nuanced game-specific rulings. Oh well, not my place to complain. I don't really use this website anyway, I won't tell you how to handle things. And to clarify how I feel about this thread: Even if cheat codes were hypothetically acceptable in some situations, and you still think this is pushing it too far, I can respect that. To give some context, this category used to be several minutes longer. It wasn't until recently that the majority of those exploits I mentioned in the write-up became well understood, and broke open the route. Back when you actually had to enter some stages and do a lot of out of bounds movement to get to the final boss, this category, to someone unfamiliar with the game, would have seemed a lot more whole than it does now. I'm not going to argue this isn't short and a little underwhelming, specifically to someone outside the BfBB community. The "oh my god, this route is crazy, and I've never seen tricks used like this before!" aspect is lost in such case. Most of you just see SpongeBob moving fast for about a minute and a half with some load screens. All this said, my notion of "true any%" in this game is this run. It seems to me the most axiomatic starting point to build the other category definitions off of, and simply the exceptionless "beat the game as fast as possible, period" any%. I hope that even if you don't agree, you can at least see my point. Please don't devolve into more arguing now.
Completed: 2010-Current | Sonic Adventure 2: Battle - Individual Level TASes 2014 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Any% in 1:05:03.23 2014 | Sonic Adventure 2: Battle - Hero Story (w/ THC98) in 25:11.87 2016 | Metroid Prime - Any% in 00:37 (In-Game Time) 2018 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Cheat% in 1:42.350 2020 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Any% in 0:39:20.10 2022 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Cheat% in 1:25.567 Currently working on: METROID PRIME ANY%
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itsPersonnal wrote:
What ever happened to entertainment value? Lmao. This is a well respected category in the community with unique and interesting tech/route. What a silly blanket rule.
I agree with this. If it's entertaining. Then it should be published. No matter what. I also agree with arandomgametaser's point of view that cheats shouldn't be seen as an absolute no to publication. If the cheats made the movie very entertaining, it should be published. However, in this case, I felt it skipped too much of the game for it to be published. It's a too short movie. I'd be more inclined to like the movie with cheats if it featured more of the game (like 100%) and that it was longer. An example of movie that I would support could be a movie of the GC game The Simpsons hit and run with both speedy cheats being active and probably the jump car cheat active (and more?) while doing a lot of the game (perhaps all missions? or even 100%). In this specific case, I felt it was way too short. :(
Memory
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Niamek wrote:
I agree with this. If it's entertaining. Then it should be published. No matter what. I also agree with arandomgametaser's point of view that cheats shouldn't be seen as an absolute no to publication. If the cheats made the movie very entertaining, it should be published. However, in this case, I felt it skipped too much of the game for it to be published. It's a too short movie. I'd be more inclined to like the movie with cheats if it featured more of the game (like 100%) and that it was longer.
If you properly read the section in the rules, it states that the rules on codes are not strict and exceptions may be granted. I will go into more detail into the nature of the rule and why it exists, but I can summarize the point of the rule for now. The point of the rule is to discourage things that may trivialize the amount of work that needs to be put into a TAS. This is also why we discourage easy modes except when they are more entertaining.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Doomsday31415
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Let me preface this by saying I have no personal attachment to this game nor to the rules governing this site. This site has two main categories: Vault and Moon/Star. Moon is for runs that are sufficiently entertaining, and Vault is for runs that complete a significant category as quickly as possible. So how does this run do on these fronts? As far as entertainment goes, I can't give it anything but No. Half the time it's a load screen and the other half is zipping through terrain to complete whatever the objective happens to be. Most of the game is completely skipped here, leaving only a final boss that goes down in a matter of seconds. That means Vault is the only possibility. Based on the RTA community, I would say this qualifies as a "significant category". It's also (obviously) as fast as is known to be possible. The only sticking point is the rule against cheats that everyone's bringing up, but exceptions have been made in the past. Personally, I do not care for a rule that forbids using tools that the game itself gives you (cheat or otherwise). Obviously there would be a separate category for using cheats vs not, but you will not beat the game faster than this without literally hacking the game. I understand the intent of discouraging easy modes to make a TAS more entertaining, but again, the Vault is about the fastest possible time, not entertainment. This is a legitimate category speedrun by dozens of people, so I don't see a good reason to keep it from Vault. In accordance with the above, voting No for entertainment but Yes for Vault.
Memory
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For Vault we expressly want to not include things that are borderline like cheat codes. It cannot be accepted to Vault as a result.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero