Over than 1 second faster before I called the CPU. But cost a long time to do that. And that helps me to skip stage 2 and saves much more time.
stage 3: 3 frames saved.
16 frames lost before boss fight. Due to worse lag avoided.
But saves 19 frames due to better boss fight.
stage 4: 34 frames lost.
Though I saved about 30 frames a the first plane. But lost them later. Maybe, it's hard for me to reduce lag in this type level.
stage 5: 38 frames lost.
More lags. Though I got a faster boss fight.
Notes
I have to admit that Glitchman is good at reducing lags. I have admiration for him. I saved many lags in stage 1. But lost many more them in stage 4 and stage 5...
ThunderAxe31: Due to the existence of a movie that beats level 1 faster, this submission has to be rejected.
ThunderAxe31: Some people brought to my attention the fact that the judgment note I wrote above doesn't explain well the reason of my decision, and I have to admit that it caused some misunderstandings. Mostly was already clarified by Spikestuff and Mothrayas, in the thread for this submission, however I think it should be summarized here.
As HappyLee correctly noted, it's not in the site policy to reject a submission in favor of improvements presented after that the submission has already been made. However, in this case we had an improvement that worked as a proof that pointed out the mistakes made in this submission. Additionally, the author of said improvements, Xipo, also explained some mistakes in a post.
I originally wanted to avoid to directly denote this submission as a faulty improvement attempt, in order avoid being harsh towards the author, as a form of courtesy. But it seems that this only made the situation worse. Now I understand that it was my mistake to purposely write such a short and unclear judgment note, as it was unrespectful towards the hard work of the author. I deeply apologize for the inconvenience.
Joined: 12/26/2006
Posts: 231
Location: Lonely City
Unfortunately,my wip is 6.2 seconds(375 frames) faster than this tas in stage1(includ 265 frames lag saved).
There are three fault.
First,character fault.1P's initial position is 112,and 2P's initial position is 128.It means 2P is 16 pix(13 frames)faster than 2P at the beginning.So,if you planed to replace character before BOSS, why don't select 2P at the beginning?
Second,there is a way to save lag without sacrifice.Look my WIP,then taser can employ BEANS all the stage.We know BEANS's walk speed is 2% faster than BURNS's.
Third,there is still much room for improvement with heavy lag manipulation.
Here is my WIP.An unexpected error occurred in stage3,I can't use Pause.Fortunately,I have solved this problem without loss.I will submit a new tas about this game some weeks later.
I did it in my comparison video list - unused plan.
Xipo wrote:
Here is my WIP.An unexpected error occurred in stage3,I can't use Pause.Fortunately,I have solved this problem without loss.I will submit a new tas about this game some weeks later.
You're smart that tell me your improvement when my run is to be judged... Maybe you want someone to praise you, I guess.
OK, I'll cancel this as soon as you submit yours.
Joined: 12/26/2006
Posts: 231
Location: Lonely City
Soig wrote:
Xipo wrote:
Here is my WIP.An unexpected error occurred in stage3,I can't use Pause.Fortunately,I have solved this problem without loss.I will submit a new tas about this game some weeks later.
You're smart that tell me your improvement when my run is to be judged... Maybe you want someone to praise you, I guess.
OK, I'll cancel this as soon as you submit yours.
You have never said you would tas this game,here or here.I have tas this game since a long time ago,I can't foresee who will submit it.Why do you think I tas it only for praise?My purpose is the same as everyone else's,just make a nice movie.What's the point of getting praise?You commend Glitchman for good reducing lags in this site.But you mocked Glitchman for bad reducing lags,and said people overpraise Glitchman in another site.Nobody knows the truth.So why I care praise?
As for your tas,I vote no.I just ask,why don't the men who vote yes say something?
Here is my WIP.An unexpected error occurred in stage3,I can't use Pause.Fortunately,I have solved this problem without loss.I will submit a new tas about this game some weeks later.
You're smart that tell me your improvement when my run is to be judged... Maybe you want someone to praise you, I guess.
OK, I'll cancel this as soon as you submit yours.
You have never said you would tas this game,here or here.
This is my issue with this as well. Alot of this can be easily avoidable if soig had just posted about his work on the forums. Game threads exist for a reason.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't
12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!"
Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet
MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish
[Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person
MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol
Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
Look, there are two stupid Chinese people abusing each other in English... >.>
I cost over a week to write down my words and read his words because of my poor English. Yes, it's true. You have to believe that. I don't need what you think, I need what I think. I think I need to cost a long time to do those things. Then it's the real. :P
Xipo wrote:
You have never said you would tas this game,here or here.
是啊，我是没在那里和那里说啊。
Xipo wrote:
I have tas this game since a long time ago,I can't foresee who will submit it.
一般都是这样啊。哪个TAS会三两天做出来。
Xipo wrote:
Why do you think I tas it only for praise?My purpose is the same as everyone else's,just make a nice movie.
What's the point of getting praise?You commend Glitchman for good reducing lags in this site.But you mocked Glitchman for bad reducing lags,and said people overpraise Glitchman in another site.Nobody knows the truth.So why I care praise?
I just ask,why don't the men who vote yes say something?
1. 你这样真的好么，一下子把其他几个人也牵扯进来了……我刚才本来也想扯另一个人的，但想想还是算了……
2. 这不很正常么。要非让人家说的话无非就是“Nice improvement, yes vote.”所以说不说又有什么必要呢。TASVideos到现在几千个投稿（这么多年了才几千个/xk/），获得的yes票多了去了，跟回复一比，当然是投票多。而且本身一个录像投上来投票总数和回复总数就已经很少了，如果还要规定人家投了票就要回复的话，就更不会有几个人去投票了。除非必须先回复才能看录像，但如果真这样做了的话估计这网站就更凉了（毕竟上次我投“捉鬼敢死队”，在feos发他的编码之前真的一个反馈一个投票都没有。作为观众，现在连下载模拟器录像，然后准备游戏和模拟器都嫌麻烦，必须有编码他们才会看，你还要他们投完票再回复？！）……/xk/
本来我不想说这些的，结果刚才一去公共账号一看，好家伙，你的视频全给我投诉了。厉害了我的哥，你可能觉得我用那个账号发你视频占你便宜了？（其实就是不想让我碰到你的作品我知道，我就用嘿嘿嘿，气死你）但那个账号我也只能说你不让我传我就不传了，那个账号明面上的目的是“收集所有已知大陆TASer在TASVideos上的作品”，既然你不让我投，那也只能当是西坡已死，有事烧纸。（我都没说你这是想摆脱大陆TASer的身份，看我多仁慈。不要辩解，我不要你觉得，我就要我觉得。）
---------------------------------
For other viewers:
Maybe I won't continue on this game in the future. I made a TAS for it only because I don't know what to do during these days. And I have made TASes for my whole favorite games.
It seems that Xipo's coming one is much better than mine. At least for stage 1.So it's enough. It's not necessary for me to make another one. To be honest, I didn't play this game many times. But Xipo made TASes for this game for several times. So he's better at this game than me.
Joined: 12/26/2006
Posts: 231
Location: Lonely City
@soig
Please speak in English here.There's no point in swearing at me in other language.Let me repeat once more,I tased this game earlier than you.I didn't target you.Why do you become so shame?Just because I voted no?You did the same thing in this topic.It looks that you always complain others since setbacks.There's no need to do that if your tas is good enough.On the other hand,I must point out that one taser should respect previous authors instead of taunt them if he reference their tas.I don't want to argue with you anymore.
Please speak in English here.There's no point in swearing at me in other language.
无所谓啊，反正争吵的这些言论到最后都会被删除，发中文怎么了。
It doesn't matter. Because all of these quarrels would be deleted soon, maybe. The similar things happened earlier. Also, many Japanese users have spoke Japanese in this site. Why can't me? They said they can't say English. So am I.
Xipo wrote:
Let me repeat once more,I tased this game earlier than you.I didn't target you.Why do you become so shame?Just because I voted no?
Then as you said, "Let me repeat once more". Don't post it in other player's submission which is to be judged, please. At least don't post it in my submission.
Xipo wrote:
Why do you become so shame?Just because I voted no?
I'm so shame. Thank you. I'm blushing. ⁄(⁄ ⁄•⁄ω⁄•⁄ ⁄)⁄
This is a reason. But because you made complaints at that day after my reply here. So that 5 videos are withdrawn. I think it's your revenge to me. So I swore to you that"Xipo is dead, burn papers if you want to tell him something." (English is too long...)
Many people on this world have a very high quality, because they say good words in common. Though stab you in the back. However, I'm worse, because I can't even say that good words.Xipo wrote:
You did the same thing in this topic.It looks that you always complain others since setbacks.
Because I've replied him before. But he continued ask that point. Can't he know the reason for that without my answer? If I ask you a question which you don't want to answer twice, don't you feel bad? And another similar thing happened to me here at the same time. 试想，刚才那边来了一个回复告诉你有一个你不知道的提升它已经取消了，但它就是比你快，你回复了一下，避开了那个最不想回答，而且不回答人家还能才出来原因的问题，然后人家又不明人情世故地又问了你一遍，你正犹豫要不要回并且压制自己情绪的时候，然后紧接着另一个地方又来一个，告诉你我这有一个比你快的记录嘿嘿嘿，你不会怀疑人生么？Maybe you can do better than me. But I can't. I don't have very high quality. After all, all people on this world have high quality but me, I know. He brought this on himself.
Xipo wrote:
There's no need to do that if your tas is good enough.
I was speechless.EDIT: If I did these works earlier, it would be good enough as you said. But I don't know that, so same for me.
Xipo wrote:
On the other hand,I must point out that one taser should respect previous authors instead of taunt them if he reference their tas.I don't want to argue with you anymore.
For that taunt you mentioned, you can think it's a joke or not. You care about it only because of our abuse.但如果非要钻牛角尖的话，I can't believe that you respect every previous authors absolutely all the time, anywhere. Including the deep in your heart. As you say, previous author is great to give us his works. We all know that. But when you beat someone, you'll feel fulfillment. But can you still say that the previous author is great at that time? If you say that, then you must say "And I'm greater." to encourage yourself in your heart. So isn't this taunt?
I hope we'll feel interesting to read our reply later. And ridicule ourselves like fools. Though we don't have a good mood now.
Maybe, I should improve these two runs, same as myself in the past. But these 3 runs are different for me. Why did I do 3 works at the same time, and choose two games I don't really like and they are not hot? I have my own real purpose. Though it has no other effect on you. But too many unlucky things happened. So I'm abnormal this time.
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6436
Location: The land down under.
Soig wrote:
It doesn't matter. Because all of these quarrels would be deleted soon, maybe. The similar things happened earlier. Also, many Japanese users have spoke Japanese in this site. Why can't me? They said they can't say English. So am I.
Because the Japanese users were usually instantly translated back to English by someone and didn't contain a rant that is several texts long as well as many other things.
The preferred language on this site is English. You can still use your native language to show what you actually meant if direct translation isn't working but if you know both languages then translate it back even if it's not 100% what you meant.
Otherwise we have to take Xipo's word that you're swearing at him, which fun fact in Google doesn't come up with what's said 100% of the time if you're not a native speaker. However, it was able to figure out your aggressive comments on your last 3 paragraphs.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account.Something better for yourself and also others.
Otherwise we have to take Xipo's word that you're swearing at him, which fun fact in Google doesn't come up with what's said 100% of the time if you're not a native speaker. However, it was able to figure out your aggressive comments on your last 3 paragraphs.
I know that. So it doesn't matter for you. Especially translate Chinese to Japanese. (My posted words is translated by Google, too.)
Yes, I do. But don't you swear when you quarrel? And resume your relations later, feels like nothing happened.
Spikestuff wrote:
Because the Japanese users were usually instantly translated back to English by someone and didn't contain a rant that is several texts long as well as many other things.
Then come that someone to translate mine, too.
They can also use google to translate and post translations. But sometimes they don't. And I don't this time, either.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4089
Location: The Netherlands
@ Soig, per the site rules, please post in English or provide translations in English.
If you have personal comments to make to Xipo in Chinese, then do so in private, not in this forum topic.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Due to the existence of a movie that beats level 1 faster, this submission has to be rejected.
I find it shocking to see this. This is such an absurd reason for rejection!
The movie rules say that the submitted run must "beat all existing records", but it doesn't say that a run must "beat all WIP out there in every stage" to be published.
From what I know, Soig's run is the best movie for now that beats every existing records, since Xipo hasn't completed his movie and his WIP is only 2 minutes long.
Are we seriously changing the movie rules to "must beat all WIP out there in every stage"?
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
The movie rules say that the submitted run must "beat all existing records", but it doesn't say that a run must "beat all WIP out there in every stage" to be published.
Existing records also includes WIPs. While I do think it sucks that Soig wasn’t aware of this wip, and the fact that Xipo never publicly posted this wip (as far as I can tell), that doesn’t discount the fact that they’re still existing records.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't
12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!"
Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet
MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish
[Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person
MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol
Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
Existing records also includes WIPs. While I do think it sucks that Soig wasn’t aware of this wip, and the fact that Xipo never publicly posted this wip (as far as I can tell), that doesn’t discount the fact that they’re still existing records.
If by this standard, a lot of movies could be rejected. For example, someone submits a Super Mario 64 "120 stars" run, and someone else points out that there is a mistake in a stage, and posts his WIP that's maybe 3 frames faster, and so the judge must reject the whole run just by a WIP that shows a possible improvement in a single stage?
When I read "existing records", I'm think of full complete runs, not a segment of a run. Since when a 2-minute WIP can be seen as a "record"?
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
If by this standard, a lot of movies could be rejected. For example, someone submits a Super Mario 64 "120 stars" run, and someone else points out that there is a mistake in a stage, and posts his WIP that's maybe 3 frames faster, and so the judge must reject the whole run just by a WIP that shows a possible improvement in a single stage?
A small improvement like that would not cause a rejection because 1, The movie is long and 2, improvement are only considered if they’re more noteworthy than simply being a few frames faster.
Now if that wip actually completed the game, and was 3 frames faster overall, then the submission would most likely be rejected. However that specific scenario is unlikely to happenz
“HappyLee” wrote:
When I read "existing records", I'm think of full complete runs, not a segment of a run. Since when a 2-minute WIP can be seen as a "record"?
IL wips are just as valid of an existing record as full game wips. What should matter is how significant is the improvement? And if this improvement caused different rng later, then would that improvement be carried over?
In the case here, 6 seconds in the first stage is a very significant improvement, I do not believe that all 6 of those seconds would be erased simply from RNG changes.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't
12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!"
Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet
MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish
[Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person
MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol
Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
If by this standard, a lot of movies could be rejected. For example, someone submits a Super Mario 64 "120 stars" run, and someone else points out that there is a mistake in a stage, and posts his WIP that's maybe 3 frames faster, and so the judge must reject the whole run just by a WIP that shows a possible improvement in a single stage?
For this submission we're not talking about micro optimization that saved single-digit frames, but about strategies and generally better lag management that saved whole seconds. Of course we don't reject a submission just because of minor improvements: see this example I recently made in another thread.
HappyLee wrote:
When I read "existing records", I'm think of full complete runs, not a segment of a run. Since when a 2-minute WIP can be seen as a "record"?
I agree that the text of the rule could be misleading. Yet, we have at least one precedent of a submission being rejected just for being slower than RTA during a single boss fight alone: #5619: Mitjitsu's Saturn Astal in 20:29.92
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4089
Location: The Netherlands
If a movie loses time to a WIP, it does not necessarily mean it loses to existing records. However, it can be an indication that a movie is clearly or provably sub-optimal, so such a movie can be rejected for that reason.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Soig, I google-translated your reply to English and I'm sorry that it happened this way.
Xipo, we always encourage open collaboration or open competition on this site. If you shared that WIP in the Contra Force thread, it would be a known record indeed, and any future TASer could easily incorporate your strategies or even work with you on finishing the run. I should agree that it's not helpful to anyone when an unknown unfinished movie is posted to compete with a complete run. It won't be open and fair competition, because incorporating such improvements may require redoing the whole run, and that can be highly demotivating when a faster WIP is only posted when it's too late. Please consider posting your abandoned projects, because then someone else can make then alive again! But posting them when it's too late, I should admit it's not entirely fair.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 12/26/2006
Posts: 231
Location: Lonely City
I have finished stage3,it's 13 seconds faster than this tas.I promised I would submit my tas soon.So it is reasonable for judge to rejecte this tas.No one target Soig.
Soig，I want to speak to you calmly here.
In the case here, 6 seconds in the first stage is a very significant improvement, I do not believe that all 6 of those seconds would be erased simply from RNG changes.
If 6 seconds are considered to be very significant, this TAS improves GlitchMan's published TAS for 2 minutes, and that should be super duper significant, yet nobody ever talks about that.
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
I agree that the text of the rule could be misleading. Yet, we have at least one precedent of a submission being rejected just for being slower than RTA during a single boss fight alone: #5619: Mitjitsu's Saturn Astal in 20:29.92
The precedent is slower than existing RTA runs during a boss fight. That to me just sounds like a pretty big mistake, because TASers should at least consider and compare RTA strategies when making the TAS. But Soig's TAS is slower than a not-previously-shared WIP, and I don't think the two examples can compare.
Mothrayas wrote:
If a movie loses time to a WIP, it does not necessarily mean it loses to existing records. However, it can be an indication that a movie is clearly or provably sub-optimal, so such a movie can be rejected for that reason.
Virtually every TAS ever created have potential improvements in theory, but that doesn't mean that the TAS is sub-optimal, because it can simply mean the author is missing something. We might all make mistakes.
Although most of us are pursuing perfection, but most of the times we fail, because we are humans after all.
It's important to know that we TASVideos should publish the best or better TASes, not "perfect TASes", because such thing may not exist.
And this TAS, as I see it, is without a doubt, the best Contra Force TAS so far, or at least before Xipo completes his movie.
If it's not a big mistake (like slower than RTA runs in some parts), I think we should try our best to tolerate it, and recognize its good parts (2-minute improvement should mean something, right?), instead of calling it sub-optimal and shutting it out.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6436
Location: The land down under.
It's nice and all that it does improve on GlitchMan's TAS however, courtesy of Movie Rules.Movie Rules wrote:
The movie's technical quality must be acceptable
Don't be lazy. We will try and beat your movie. We should hopefully not succeed. See the Guidelines on how to make a movie that meets the site's standards.
This section right here usually makes or break a TAS.
A recent user example is Mihoru.
Where each of their TASes (except the first one) was looked under a heavy light after it was revealed that they're "lazy" on how they TASed, and movies were made to prove that they weren't optimal, or sections were called out for questioning which later revealed suboptimal input.
This is the same thing here, but I wouldn't call Soig lazy.
I reckon in this case it's just not enough work was placed into TASing... especially with the amount of Contra "pacifist" submissions/movies we received this year (which is 4 for anyone keeping track).
It's unlucky that something he stated by not working this game (allegedly, I don't really keep up with Contra News), which gave someone else the green light to work on it and had to reveal their input on this submission.
---
Edit: If you want another example, you can look at chatterbox's EarthBound TAS, the difference is the author's aware of the WIP existing.
There's also this other one here where improvements were found after the creation of the TAS.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account.Something better for yourself and also others.
Joined: 12/26/2006
Posts: 231
Location: Lonely City
Happylee,I don't agree with you at all.What you said is importunate with no justification.Do you think this tas is 2 minutes faster than Glitchman's tas?Or do you think there is a large improvment in this tas?Frankly,this movie is just 2 minutes shorter than Glitchman's ancient tas with a warp glitch in stage1 which was found in RTA.We don't find anything else in this tas.This tas is even slower than Glitchman's in stage3,4,5.Now my WIP is 6 seconds faster than this,stage2 can be skipped.So where is Soig's element/Part?
