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Introduction

Another pokesub from me, this time on the Coin Case TAS. This run is ~40 seconds faster than the previous TAS (accounting for the lack of a BIOS on the previous TAS).

Emulator used: Bizhawk 2.4.2

  • CGB in GBA is enabled for console verification.

Categories

  • Forgoes save data corruption
  • Executes arbitrary code
  • Heavy luck manipulation

About the run

Version Choice

Gold and Silver are mostly the same, the only relevant difference being that Silver’s title screen loads 2 frames slower. Silver was used in the previous TAS since the TID used was faster to manip on that version, however, this run manips a different TID, and Gold happens to be able to manipulate it faster.

Route

Most of the route pre-Coin Case is identical to my glitchless submission, with some differences:
  • TID is manipulated to be F8F7; D8F7 also works, but F8F7 was much faster to manipulate.
  • Time is set to the default time, we don’t have to catch a Wooper here, so no need to set it to morning.
  • The player is named “J”. Purely an artistic choice, there is no extra cost to naming the character J.
  • Cyndaquil’s DVs are manipulated to be F8AF, nothing too different really, still does the job.
  • Cyndaquil is named “B”. Again, another artistic choice, with no extra cost.
  • Bellsprout is caught on Route 31. We need a filler Pokemon for the Coin Case and Bellsprout is the best since we have to encounter it anyways. It is not nicknamed, as its name will only appear 2 times in the run.
  • The Egg’s DVs are manipulated to be 3887. This is important later on for the ACE bootstrap.
  • Burn strats are completely avoided. Turns out it was actually a bit slower to use burns to save turns (loses ~3 seconds overall).
    • Russel’s level 6 Geodude is now taken out with two 1/39 non-crit Embers.
    • The Koffing from the last Rocket grunt is now taken out with a 1/39 non-crit and a high roll non-crit Ember.
    • Rival 2’s Croconaw is now taken out by three 1/39 Tackle crits and one 1/39 Tackle non-crit.
  • Apparently, Amy & May's Ledyba can be KO'd by a Tackle crit, which saves a bit of time over Ember.
  • Tackle is swapped to the third slot on Rival 2. Tackle needs to be in the third slot for the ACE bootstrap to work, and switching moves in battle is a lot faster than out of battle.
  • Cut is taught to Bellsprout. Bellsprout has empty move slots, so it is fastest if we teach Cut to it.
  • Of course, since we’re just going to be glitching with the Coin Case, no need to catch Abra or get the bike, just go underground, defeat the 1 trainer in the way, then Coin Case away.

Coin Case Glitch Improvements

The Coin Case glitch setup is pretty much the same until we reach party data. The previous TAS used a ld hl,D900 and jp hl to jump to box names. This TAS instead uses a ld hl,F86C and rst 30 to jump to box names. rst 30 is really just a 1 byte call to 0030, which corresponds to:
ld l,a
pop de
jp hl
The egg’s DVs are manipulated to correspond to jr c,87 instruction, which will make a relative jump backwards to right before Quilava’s data (there are some other DVs that work too for this). Quilava’s species ID, which corresponds to a sbc h opcode, will be executed, and this will make a = B9. This will make the rst 30 jump to F8B9, which is a little before box names.
Since we jump to the beginning of box names, we don’t have to scroll downwards to boxes 7-8 like the previous TAS. This, however, raises an issue, as we cannot plant our joypad input in the box 1 terminator, due to character restrictions. We can however plant our input in box 2’s terminator, so we can simply split the program into 3 box names. This is still much faster than scrolling down to boxes 7-8, so it’s an improvement nonetheless. The program is written like this:
BytesInstructionComment
Box 1
fa a6 ffld a,(ffa6)Reads current joypad inputs into a
fe 50cp $50We don’t want the terminator executed, so we eat it with a cp
00 x4nop x4Slide down to box 2
Box 2
aaxor dd stores last joypad input: find out differences to current input
ea d0 f8ld (f8d0),aWrite difference; will be executed as opcode later in the next cycle
aaxor dRestore current joypad input value
f5push afCopy current joypad input from a...
d1pop de... to d (store it as last joypad input)
f1pop afRestore a and f from the previous cycle
(f8d0)(any)Execute opcode written earlier this cycle
Box 3
f5push afSave a and f for next cycle
b6or (hl)Clears carry flag, needed for the jump
d2 b9 f8jp nc, f8b9Loop back to right before Box 1; carry will never be set
The input payload can be found here. It’s fairly similar to MrWint’s payload, with a few improvements, namely putting our warp data next to the player’s coordinates, and using the game’s auto-input system to talk to Red, so we can simply let the game beat itself.

Nerd Stuff

I used the same lua in my Pokemon Silver TAS to make this TAS, it can be found here.
Also, for nerds, here is an encode using the lua:
I also used a bot to find the needed trainer ID, my bot (which is heavily based on the RTA TID bot) can be found here.

Console Verification

Tikevin was able to console verify this TAS, the stream for it can be found here.
As a note, since the run is just ~30 minutes, RTC almost never becomes an issue for console sync.
Also, for publication, please use the Libretro GBC palette, that palette is the best.

Memory: Judging
Memory: The execution in this run seems to be very good but there’s major problems with the goal.
The run mimics the glitchless run with some minor route deviations until it gets the coin case to end the game. You look at bellsprout, then at the coin case, and then you’re at red and the game is over. It’s not a visually exciting glitch by game end glitch standards, nor are there any sort of lesser glitches leading up to that one. When discussing the submission with others, I realized the glitch had left such little of an impression on me that I forgot what it looked like and had to rewatch it to remind myself. You might as well just watch like 30 minutes of the glitchless run go “ok I’m done” and then skip to the end of the video. This is the kind of glitch that would make better for a neat youtube video solely dedicated to it than part of a dedicated TAS. The audience reaction wasn’t really great either and the ratings on the published run are less than stellar.
Additionally it is conceptually similar to the save glitch branch. Ultimately both runs aim to use a glitch to directly trigger game end as quickly as possible. The difference between them is that the save glitch branch abuses a mid-save reset to beat the game much faster, whereas this one avoids mid-save resets and performs the coin case glitch (which is a form of Arbitrary Code Execution) a bit later into the game. While Coin Case Glitch is about 26 minutes longer, this is similar to Super Mario Bros. 3 where a much longer run was obsoleted by a much shorter one. The difference in runs here ultimately comes down to the precise “attack vector” to perform the game end glitch, which imo is not an especially compelling difference for a casual audience. One could argue about the legitimacy of mid-save resets, but TASVideos has allowed them for a long time. While the specific method of save glitch used in TASes is hard to verify as being possible, it is known that one can reach game end through save glitch even in real time play. Additionally, save glitches are possible on all versions of Gen 2, meaning that the faster strategy is not locked out of versions.
In my eyes this goal definition is quite flimsy. If the goal is no mid-save reset, what happens if a run that doesn’t use save glitches is faster than the save glitch branch? Would it obsolete both this run and the other? We also have never really made any distinction between mid-save reset and not before, especially when Arbitrary Code Execution enters the picture. If that’s not the goal, is the goal of this run to use specifically the coin case glitch? In that case, wouldn’t runs that use a similar game end glitch setup that isn’t the coin case be unable to obsolete this one?
It seems the Pokemon RTA community has actually came to a similar conclusion, only listing any% and any% glitchless as major categories, whereas no save corruption is only listed under category extensions.
For these reasons, I think allowing the previous Coin Case run to remain unobsoleted was a mistake, and we should correctly have it obsoleted by the save glitch branch. We may revisit this in the future if rules changes occur but for now...


TiKevin83
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Replying to Samsara - This is a good critique of accepting different vectors for memory corruption on the same game. Though I may disagree with the assumption that the TASVideos audience broadly is not entertained by different memory corruption attack vectors on the same game, it's certainly an open question. There's a balance between how the branches have been treated historically, how voting is going (which appears universally positive anyway in this case), and how best to handle the TASes against current publication rules. I remain unconvinced that this even applies in this situation though because we're also talking about different games. The hypothetical laypeople in your audience not only are seeing the different branches as one simply a slower version of the other, but also entirely different games as simply slower versions of each other. I would suggest that entertainment is not an issue generally, a layperson would be entertained simply by the varied game choice for the exploit, and the more niche TASer/infosec audience would be entertained by what I laid out about the various attack vectors.
Memory
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To be fair, the save glitch is just as possible in Gold as it is in Crystal. I explicitly asked on the previous page back. And as someone who doesn't care a ton about pokemon, I don't feel that there's that much of a difference between versions for gen 2. I feel it's enough to warrant separate branches when glitches are avoided sure. But here I dunno. Is coin case exclusive to G/S? Or does it work in Crystal as well? EDIT: It was pointed out to me that CCG is in fact G/S exclusive.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Samsara
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TiKevin83 wrote:
There's a balance between how the branches have been treated historically...
Which, reminder, is that save glitch and CCG have been treated the same as the site.
...how voting is going (which appears universally positive anyway in this case)...
What also needs to be considered is how many votes there are. 8 total votes after a month on the workbench doesn't exactly imply that people are interested in the run. The Crystal submission has 20 total votes, and the glitchless Silver submission has 10 despite being six times longer than this run. It really feels like interest in CCG as a whole is waning, at least in terms of people on the site.
...and how best to handle the TASes against current publication rules.
Going back to the first quote and the previous standards I brought up (SMB3 and Chrono Trigger), "game end glitch" is generally treated as a universal category despite what methods are used. Save corruption or no save corruption, both runs get to a point where they manipulate memory to reach the credits instantly. My arguments are upholding how the site has historically handled (coin) cases like these.
I remain unconvinced that this even applies in this situation though because we're also talking about different games.
The "different games" counterpoint completely falls apart considering the circumstances. This is a Gold run meant to obsolete a Silver run that originally obsoleted a Gold run, which is now obsoleted by a Crystal run. CCG is unique to Gold/Silver, yes, but there's still questions that arise from it still having a published branch. If someone submits a save glitch run for Gold/Silver, what happens? Does CCG get obsoleted by the faster ACE run, or does Gold/Silver save glitch get rejected because it isn't the fastest Gen2 save glitch run? Both of these options counteract each other, but they're both the correct choice as far as judging is concerned. That's the problem with continuing to have this branch published. It isn't consistent with how we've done things in the past (obsoleting slower GEGs with faster methods), it raises more questions than it answers, and it makes no sense to arbitrarily change how obsoletions work within the Pokemon franchise (i.e, any game within a generation can obsolete any other game within a generation) just for this one specific branch, even if CCG is version-exclusive.
I would suggest that entertainment is not an issue generally, a layperson would be entertained simply by the varied game choice for the exploit, and the more niche TASer/infosec audience would be entertained by what I laid out about the various attack vectors.
Entertainment is quite literally the focus of the site, though. This run has to be entertaining to be published, as it isn't the fastest completion in its category (which is, again, Crystal save glitch). That's why I brought up the (seemingly) lack of interest in this run (most of this submission thread has been tech questions/this ongoing debate about the branch) and the relatively low-ish entertainment score on the published run (6.6 is what I'd consider just north of the Vault/Moon cutoff). It's still a valid point when considering what to do with this run, even if my main issue is still that it's a slower GEG run when we not only have a faster one published, but an improvement to that published run also sitting on the workbench. If the audience's interest/entertainment has dropped off to this point, it might not even qualify for the site at all anymore regardless of the branching.
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Memory wrote:
EDIT: It was pointed out to me that CCG is in fact G/S exclusive.
Not only G/S exclusive, but also English G/S exclusive. So bonus points for forced entertainment. Also, for Crystal NSC glitches... there really aren't any. The current RTA route for NSC is potentially also under the "save glitch" branch. While it doesn't corrupt the save per se, it still abuses a glitch within the saving system (tl;dr Battle Tower has a quicksave, the game uses the Trainer ID to identify if the save is the correct save, manipulate the same Trainer ID for a new game, and go back to the battle tower, and yes that means do the first 3 gyms a second time, and battle tower ends up loading data from the quicksave, which goes horribly wrong). For something that wouldn't be save glitch at all... the only thing I can think of is *maybe* the Sandstorm/Spikes glitch... which as the name implies, requires both of those moves. Which the fastest way to obtain them would be... a level 36 Onix, and for Spikes, a Qwilfish fish up with an Old Rod on Route 32 during a Swarm... right. Which then once you set it up, you would barely save any time over glitchless. Oh, also any autoheals would mean you'd have to redo the glitch, so haha lol. tl;dr Crystal doesn't get squat without save corruption.
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Samsara wrote:
It really feels like interest in CCG as a whole is waning, at least in terms of people on the site.
This has been my impression as well, since it was novel at the time, and I think it was also the fastest way to beat the game back then.
Samsara wrote:
Going back to the first quote and the previous standards I brought up (SMB3 and Chrono Trigger), "game end glitch" is generally treated as a universal category despite what methods are used. Save corruption or no save corruption, both runs get to a point where they manipulate memory to reach the credits instantly. My arguments are upholding how the site has historically handled (coin) cases like these.
We have this movie class that covers different glitch types: http://tasvideos.org/MovieClassGuidelines.html#MajorSkipGlitch And this term that talks about the same thing: http://tasvideos.org/Glossary.html#GameBreakingGlitch There is fundamental similarity in all such glitches, even if visually they may differ a lot. Someone probably needs to do a search through all movie branches on the site to tell if any other game has had "save glitch" alongside some other major skip glitch like "game end glitch". [1978] SNES Super Metroid "X-Ray glitch" by Cpadolf in 21:25.12 and [2558] SNES Super Metroid "GT code, game end glitch" by amaurea, Cpadolf & total in 14:52.88 co-existed for a short while, then [2600] SNES Super Metroid "game end glitch" by Cpadolf in 12:54.71 obsoleted both, and the GEG branch has since been reduced to [3768] SNES Super Metroid "game end glitch" by Sniq in 06:42.54 Comparable in its iconic status to this franchise, but it didn't have an exception for too long. And I must note that "GT code, game end glitch" was tremendously different from anything we've seen by then, so yes it was an exception.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Samsara
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feos wrote:
There is fundamental similarity in all such glitches, even if visually they may differ a lot. Someone probably needs to do a search through all movie branches on the site to tell if any other game has had "save glitch" alongside some other major skip glitch like "game end glitch".
I went through every currently published run categorized with Major Skip Glitch, and out of all of them, only Gen1 Pokemon (Yellow "game end" and Red "save") and Gen2 Pokemon (Crystal "save" and Silver "coin case") fit this criteria. I can check obsoleted movies and obsoletion chains as well, though I imagine that'd take a lot more time.
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feos wrote:
Someone probably needs to do a search through all movie branches on the site to tell if any other game has had "save glitch" alongside some other major skip glitch like "game end glitch".
http://tasvideos.org/MovieClassGuidelines.html#ForgoesSaveDataCorruption What's exactly the point of this category if we are just going to say "save corruption obsoletes no save corruption."
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So we could have major-glitch-skip and no-major-glitch-skip branches and categorize them accordingly. [3863] Genesis Phantasy Star IV "macro glitch" by Jiseed in 20:33.04 [4184] Genesis Phantasy Star IV by janus in 1:25:29.44 That other one doesn't seem to have the tag, but it's needed for all movies where such a glitch is (now known to be) possible but hasn't been used. Better examples: [2047] SNES Chrono Trigger "save glitch" by turska & inichi in 03:28.06 [2592] SNES Chrono Trigger by keylie in 2:17:08.86
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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feos wrote:
So we could have major-glitch-skip and no-major-glitch-skip branches and categorize them accordingly. [3863] Genesis Phantasy Star IV "macro glitch" by Jiseed in 20:33.04 [4184] Genesis Phantasy Star IV by janus in 1:25:29.44 That other one doesn't seem to have the tag, but it's needed for all movies where such a glitch is (now known to be) possible but hasn't been used.
Looking at one of the examples in the movie rules, it seems these movies don't follow that? Both have Major Skip Glitch in their labels. [4186] SNES EarthBound by sharpRui36 in 58:37.14 [2466] SNES EarthBound "save glitch" by pirohiko in 04:04.35
Samsara
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"Major skip glitch" includes game end glitch, but it is not exclusively game end glitch. The Earthbound example in particular, the major skip in the 1 hour run is an OOB glitch, as far as I know there's no memory or save corruption of any kind. "Foregoes save corruption" is there because most of those runs also forego memory corruption, save for... Whattaya know, Pokemon! ACE in general makes a lot of categories completely worthless, since you could just glitch in whatever you wanted from the exact same GEG/save glitch setups, but also if we didn't have categories for foregoing GEGs then we wouldn't have "normal" runs of any game that had a GEG. Imagine if the only SMB3 TAS we had published was the sub-1 second one. Whoof! TASvideos is complicated, it has always been complicated, and it will always be complicated. I appreciate all this discourse, hopefully things will get cleared up one way or another.
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Just a reminder. The currently published CCG did obsolete the 1-hour save glitch movie originally, because it was a faster way to corrupt memory (strictly speaking, save data is also a part of accessible memory) and pull off the major skip glitch. The previous "save glitch" run didn't execute arbitrary code, but the current one does, the current CCG does, and this movie does too, and the new "save glitch" submission does too! Attack vectors are different, but the primary techniques showcased that make these runs this short are now basically the same.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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feos wrote:
the primary techniques showcased that make these runs this short are now basically the same.
Just want to note something about save corruption. If a TAS decides to use save corruption, but also forgo ACE (and ARE/AMC), then you would actually still end up getting a run faster than Coin Case. Hell, ban checksum collision and save corruption is still faster by a land slide. Save corruption is that powerful. (this is mostly based off the fact the current RTA WR for Gold No ACE is 32:45. A TAS would easily cut that down below 30 minutes. And of course that's without checksum collision. Slap in checksum collision and it would probably be under 15 minutes, probably around 12 minutes)
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I'd argue that that isn't so much an example of being powerful as being able to be performed early. ACE is arguably as powerful as a TAS can get. Yes other techniques might be faster by sheer coincidence, but no other technique is able to actually let you control the game the way you can with ACE. Could you get into a total control setup from this glitch?
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
TiKevin83
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oh yeah the coin case glitch can give you total control of the console
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Personally, I just see save corruption as dull. It absolutely has technical merit, but since it showcases so little gameplay, I think there should always be space for a NSC run to stand out, even from an entertainment perspective: most viewers may not be sated after a 3 minute run and want to see more. I also don't think it's difficult for people to see the technical difference. Forget infosec, everybody knows you shouldn't turn off the power while saving! It's far more straightforward to explain than ACE, that's for sure.
ovo
Memory
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Like I'm not deadset on obsoleting this branch but it doesn't match up with the precedents we set for other games and I'd feel we'd need to consider revisiting them.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Sanqui wrote:
Personally, I just see save corruption as dull. It absolutely has technical merit, but since it showcases so little gameplay, I think there should always be space for a NSC run to stand out, even from an entertainment perspective: most viewers may not be sated after a 3 minute run and want to see more. I also don't think it's difficult for people to see the technical difference. Forget infosec, everybody knows you shouldn't turn off the power while saving! It's far more straightforward to explain than ACE, that's for sure.
I can rephrase this as "save glitch is too short, and full run is too long, so neither is really entertaining". Does CCG feel like enjoyable gameplay then? Having at least one Moons level branch for gen2 sounds like a pro.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Memory
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feos wrote:
I can rephrase this as "save glitch is too short, and full run is too long, so neither is really entertaining". Does CCG feel like enjoyable gameplay then? Having at least one Moons level branch for gen2 sounds like a pro.
1. I don't think CCG is even that well received. 2. Thing is I'm personally not a fan of having a branch with a weak definition as "Avoids one setup in particular for game end glitch". Technically both this and save glitch could be obsoleted by an even faster GEG that doesn't involve save glitch.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Personally, I would say "no," at least not in a way that feels different from a full run.
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Memory wrote:
1. I don't think CCG is even that well received.
Currently published run has a 6.6 entertainment rating from 14 votes, this submission has only received 8 total votes (with one meh), and as far as I've seen, the only people who are defending the branch's existence are people already in the community, and I don't think an individual game's community should determine whether or not it gets to defy a general site's rules. As for the thing about gameplay differences, I'm going to watch glitchless and this submission at the same time and see if there's really any reason to show(coin)case this run in terms of different content. Will post notes/findings in some amount of time.
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warmCabin wrote:
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Sanqui
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feos wrote:
Sanqui wrote:
Personally, I just see save corruption as dull. It absolutely has technical merit, but since it showcases so little gameplay, I think there should always be space for a NSC run to stand out, even from an entertainment perspective: most viewers may not be sated after a 3 minute run and want to see more. I also don't think it's difficult for people to see the technical difference. Forget infosec, everybody knows you shouldn't turn off the power while saving! It's far more straightforward to explain than ACE, that's for sure.
I can rephrase this as "save glitch is too short, and full run is too long, so neither is really entertaining". Does CCG feel like enjoyable gameplay then? Having at least one Moons level branch for gen2 sounds like a pro.
I like to think of it as a nice middle ground, yes, showcasing both superhuman gameplay and breaking the game with a cool glitch. And somebody who finds the gameplay in this run boring would surely find the full game even more boring. Full disclosure though that I was the one to invent the Coin Case ACE exploit and make the first RTA run, so I'm very much biased towards this category. Just putting forth my view though! :)
ovo
Samsara
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Sanqui wrote:
Full disclosure though that I was the one to invent the Coin Case ACE exploit and make the first RTA run, so I'm very much biased towards this category. Just putting forth my view though! :)
With all due respect, that should disqualify your opinion due to potential bias. I just finished watching CCG and glitchless Silver side-by-side up to where CCG ends, and here's a brief comparison: 0. Basically, the comparison in the submission text for this run is 100% accurate, but I'll go into more detail. 1. The runs are almost completely identical for the first 10 minutes, until CCG catches that Bellsprout. About 6 minutes later, glitchless catches a Wooper. In essence, both runs catch a Pokemon along the path, which evens out in time. 2. CCG messes around on the PC to manipulate EGG. Glitchless gets EGG first, then puts EGG in PC. In essence, both runs do things re: EGG on the PC, which evens out in time. 3. CCG does have faster battle strats, but that's all explained in the sub text, and they don't amount to much difference at all. 4. The times between the two runs end up nearly completely even since the runs are basically doing the same things, just slightly differently. The paths diverge for good at about 28 minutes (glitchless catches an Abra just before Goldenrod, CCG goes straight to Game Corner). 5. CCG setup is literally "get to the Coin Case, look at Bellsprout, open Coin Case". And then, just like save glitch, appear in front of Red, Red disappears, credits roll. There's nothing interesting about it. Like, sure, it's cool that something so innocuous instantly leads to the end, but it's not really interesting to watch, and hardly anything is different when it comes to a direct comparison to glitchless. You could pretty much just watch glitchless until Goldenrod and then watch the end credits and you'd get the same effect as watching CCG. I don't really know what's left to say at this point. I'm now 100% convinced save glitch should obsolete CCG. Save glitch has the more interesting setup, it's 26 minutes shorter, and it isn't 95% identical to another published run. And that's not counting the fact that both runs are ACE so save glitch should obsolete CCG anyway, regardless of any other argument. EDIT: I'm refraining from voting since I don't feel comfortable doing so after talking about how the entertainment value might factor into a decision on whether or not to keep the branch. I guess that in and of itself implies my opinion isn't all that high, but I still won't poison the well. It feels like manipulating the submission votes just to further prove my point, and that ain't good.
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warmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
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Just want to correct a few things.
Samsara wrote:
2. CCG messes around on the PC to manipulate EGG. Glitchless gets EGG first, then puts EGG in PC. In essence, both runs do things re: EGG on the PC, which evens out in time.
The reason CCG uses the PC before getting the egg has nothing to do with manipulating its DVs. It's actually just simply because of movement. For glitchless, the scientist is talked to on the left, with a turnframe. This saves a net 8 frames overall, since talking to the scientist on the bottom will cause him to take an extra step (16 frames), which is more than the 8 frame timeloss from the player doing a turnframe to talk to the scientist. Glitchless has to talk to the scientist before going to the PC, since glitchless wants to deposit the egg. CCG just doesn't need to do so immediately, since it's just using the PC to write a payload in, and doesn't want to deposit the egg. As such, it can talk to the scientist on the right after using the PC, which saves a net 16 frames over talking to the scientist on the left before using the PC, since it saves 2 turnframes (the turnframes saved are the 1 turnframe from talking to the scientist on the left and 1 turnframe to go to the PC after talking to the scientist, talking to the right doesn't need a turnframe, and since we're leaving after talking to a scientist, we don't need to use a turnframe to go in the right direction, since the cutscene faces us towards the door in the end).
Samsara wrote:
CCG goes straight to Game Corner).
CCG goes to Goldenrod Underground, not the Game Corner :P
Invariel
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[stuff about PC manipulation and usage] That's a very detailed and appreciated assessment of a tiny portion of the CCG run, but it doesn't address the roughly 29 minutes of comparable and practically identical content between it and the glitchless run.
I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
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Invariel wrote:
[stuff about PC manipulation and usage] That's a very detailed and appreciated assessment of a tiny portion of the CCG run, but it doesn't address the roughly 29 minutes of comparable and practically identical content between it and the glitchless run.
That wasn't the point of that post. The point was to address a few minor inaccuracies. It was not to address the rest of the post, nor does it discredit the rest of the post.