Submission Text Full Submission Page
"Unlike most 2D Mario games, Super Mario Bros. Special didn't have any warps, and this was faithfully kept in this romhack. This means that every level has to be completed." A quote from the movie page of the newly published TAS of this hack.
But that's not true. In fact, not every level has to be completed, because you can freely choose a starting world in the title screen.
The goal of my TAS is clear: fastest completion. The real any% run of this hack should start at World 8.
This is not cheating, because it's simply allowed by the hack creator (Frantik). He stated it in "Readme.txt": "There are two special features accessible from the main title screen: Press B to select the starting world..."
After saving the princess, you'll get the very same ending text & credits. I see no reason not to use it in an any% TAS.
Other than that, it's just an ordinary SMB hack TAS.
Frankly, it's not my favourite hack, and far from my favourite TAS. But to me, if this hack is allowed to be published on this site, it deserves a real any% run.

Suggested screenshot (frame #9175)


Samsara: Claiming for judging.
Samsara: Well, this was quite a ride.
HappyLee has been banned from TASVideos for 3 months for repeated disruptive behavior in this submission's thread. Given the author's arguments and accusations, I would like to summarize and explain the situation from a rules and judgement perspective.
First, I must clarify up front that the decision made for this run is mostly independent of HappyLee's temporary ban, in that the ban only affects one possible outcome, and only temporarily. While it is true that the run would have been cancelled or rejected had his ban been indefinite, the defining factor behind this decision is based entirely off of the nature of the TAS itself. On TASVideos, we occasionally receive submissions that require us to re-evaluate our MovieRules. This is in no way a bad thing, this is something that we want as staff. For myself especially as Senior Judge, I want nothing more than to ensure our rules are clear, readable, understandable, and malleable. If the community decides that there needs to be a change, there will be a change. This has been happening quite often lately, and I'm proud of the work we have all done as a community to make things easier and more reasonable, from the TAS authors who make runs that challenge the rules to the community members who discuss them and come to a consensus.
This was, in a way, one of those submissions. It found a weakness in the rules, and that weakness was corrected. However, unlike other submissions that lead to edits of the rules, this one found a weakness of omission and not a weakness of complication. The usage of this form of level selection as a time saving technique has never been allowed on TASVideos, and in my opinion it's unlikely that it ever will be. I don't believe any speedrunning community, RTA included, would ever count skipping 87.5% of a game through a level selection system as a legitimate strategy for an any% speedrun. Keep in mind, however, that this is an opinion and not a firm statement. There is a possibility the overall community's thoughts on this could change in the future, and we will change accordingly to fit the desires of the community.
That being said, there are ways in which this run could have been treated differently, and I'd like to go over three of the more notable ones.
The first is that this could be considered an individual level TAS. These are normally not allowed as they are incomplete runs, but we have accepted them in the past, whether it was because of the site's past focus on pure entertainment showcases, the game presenting itself as disconnected levels or level sets or, um, through a former staff member's flagrant abuse of power. That last one should never have happened and will never happen again, but I feel it should be mentioned for accountability purposes and to illustrate that individual level TASes have been frowned upon since the very beginning of the site.
In cases where we accept individual level TASes, we have a clause in the rules that handles how to treat these runs, namely that they will always be obsoleted by full game runs of their respective games, due to what we call "full content overlap". That is, the entirety of an individual level run will be contained in a full game run, so there is no need to have both published alongside each other. Were someone to create and submit a full run of Biker Mice From Mars, it would obsolete the "final round" TAS linked above. For this run, though, the full game run already exists and has been published. so even if we determined this run to be a valid individual level run, we still cannot accept it. Of course, since this is an SMB1 ROM hack, it is following SMB1's presentation of a long series of connected stages, and as such any usage of the title screen level select is explicitly skipping required content. This is confirmed further by the published run's statement that there are no warp zones, meaning all worlds and levels are normally required to be played. In short, we have to rule out this run being acceptable as an individual level.
Another possibility is that the input itself could be salvageable outside of being published. If this is a strict improvement to the published run's World 8, perhaps the two runs could be spliced together as a compromise solution. This presents a (thankfully) much simpler to describe set of problems, namely that this run and the published run cannot be adequately compared. Any improvement that this run contains would need to be recontextualized in the full game run, as conditions between the two could be completely different due to the level select. Notably, the full game run is fully powered up through World 8 while this run remains small Mario, which leads to this run actually being slower overall as it needs to wait for a piranha plant in 8-4 that the full game run can just kill, so there's no real compromise solution here either.
The final possibility is to accept the run as a new branch altogether, putting it in Alternative or Playground. Alternative is clearly ruled out by the community reaction, with the run receiving a wealth of No votes. PG, on the other hand, was quite literally made to support runs like this. There is a major problem with this option, though: The run was submitted as an any% run of the hack. As such, without any changes, it does not qualify for Playground. Placing it there would require us to change the run and treat it as something else. Not only is this going against HappyLee's original intention for the run, but given his temporary ban, he is unable to make any statements regarding how the run is presented. We should not, under any circumstances, make any changes to an author's work without their explicit consent, so as of right now we will continue to treat this run as HappyLee submitted it, which means it cannot currently be placed in Playground. However, it is still an option for the future, once HappyLee returns and is able to publicly consent to it.
I believe that's everything I would like to address. If anyone has any questions about how this submission was handled from a judgement and rules perspective, feel free to ask me directly. If need be, I will continue to update this judgement with further notes and clarifications to ensure that my thoughts and actions are understood and not misinterpreted.


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EZGames69 wrote:
The submission text says this: “ Like the original, no warps are implemented so all levels must be completed.” They clearly don’t believe the level selection counts as a warp in this case or even something worth doing in a run, so they didn’t utilize it. Whether they knew it existed or not is completely irrelevant since the goal was to play all levels.
I'm not saying that world selection counts as a warp either. But the second half the sentence (all levels must be completed) is incorrect.
EZGames69 wrote:
When you say stuff like these in your submission: “The real any% run of this hack should start at World 8.” “if this hack is allowed to be published on this site, it deserves a real any% run.” Then I find it very hard to believe your intention wasn’t to obsolete the current run.
I don't know how you assume my intention, but all I said was that the current published TAS is not a real any% run (as movie length can tell). How the current publication should be treated is not up to me to decide, it's up to the judges.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
GMP
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HappyLee wrote:
I'm not familiar with other games (most game doesn't allow you to simply select the last level). But I am familiar with the "both quests" RTA category. The second quest is done by selecting World 8 in the title screen, just like in this TAS.
Good example but the difference is that in that run you "earn" the right to select the level within that run.
Spikestuff
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A TAS that suits the Playground or Gruefood since all it accomplishes is jumping to the final world and completing that instead of each level which the current Publication achieves. There are precedents that should already exist in Gruefood from my memory already which is why I wrote that as well, but if modern rules are anything to go by it can land in the Playground.
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It probably won't land in playground either. It doesn't offer anything the currently published run hasn't shown besides the level select.
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Spikestuff wrote:
A TAS that suits the Playground or Gruefood since all it accomplishes is jumping to the final world and completing that instead of each level which the [5058M|current Publication achieves].
It accomplishes beating a game in the fastest time. If that doesn't mean anything to you, then half of the movies on TASVideos can be deleted.
GMP wrote:
HappyLee wrote:
I'm not familiar with other games (most game doesn't allow you to simply select the last level). But I am familiar with the "both quests" RTA category. The second quest is done by selecting World 8 in the title screen, just like in this TAS.
Good example but the difference is that in that run you "earn" the right to select the level within that run.
True, you don't have to earn it in this hack, because it's a free gift from the hack creator. So what's wrong of using it?
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
InputEvelution
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I remembered an example of a TAS getting rejected partially because it started at a later point in the game instead of at the beginning, despite being a built-in feature. So here's some precedent: https://tasvideos.org/1533S
Spikestuff
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HappyLee wrote:
It accomplishes beating a game in the fastest time. If that doesn't mean anything to you, then half of the movies on TASVideos can be deleted.
I accomplished reaching the bad ending four times and they were placed to Playground. I also accomplished on the same game an "all pages" run which on a technicality failed at being "all pages", as it didn't achieve two other endings. I also have three bowling TASes that should be accepted with the new site rulings, but I'm not forcing hands begging, I'm joking and waiting. But also I ask this for you. Since you are stating half the publications should be removed, cause you're acting in a manor right now which is just astoundingly bad. Show your findings on what movies actually used an in-game cheat sequence to jump to the end of the game such as your TAS here then. And if you can't produce exactly half of the 5039 publications then the point you made is completely nonsensical (and yes I'm including obsoleted).
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
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Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account. Something better for yourself and also others.
GMP
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GMP wrote:
True, you don't have to earn it in this hack, because it's a free gift from the hack creator. So what's wrong of using it?
Easy difficulty is a gift from developers in a lot of games but we prefer harder difficulties if it offers interesting challenge. I think the same reasoning applies here.
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InputEvelution wrote:
I remembered an example of a TAS getting rejected partially because it started at a later point in the game instead of at the beginning, despite being a built-in feature. So here's some precedent: https://tasvideos.org/1533S
Quote from the judge of that submission: Firstly, I don't like the idea of running only one cup. That would either mean that we publish every cup as a different movie, or have both a "full run" and an "any % run" which would be identical for the last cup. Neither of these is a good idea. There's no such problem in this hack. Although I've never played Mario Kart 64, "all cups" does seem like a solid goal. The main goal in SMB or most SMB hacks is to save the princess, and this TAS does exactly that.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
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Spikestuff wrote:
I accomplished reaching the bad ending four times and they were placed to Playground. I also accomplished on the same game an "all pages" run which on a technicality failed at being "all pages", as it didn't achieve two other endings.
I don't care about your "bad ending" or failed runs. It's irrelevant here, because as I stated in the submission text: "After saving the princess, you'll get the very same ending text & credits. I see no reason not to use it in an any% TAS."
Spikestuff wrote:
Since you are stating half the publications should be removed, cause you're acting in a manor right now which is just astoundingly bad.
No, that was by your logic. You said my TAS doesn't accomplish anything, yet it's the fastest completion of this hack.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
negative_seven
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HappyLee wrote:
The main goal in SMB or most SMB hacks is to save the princess, and this TAS does exactly that.
In that case, one could abuse uninitialized RAM to start at world 8 in the original game to beat it faster.
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GMP wrote:
Easy difficulty is a gift from developers in a lot of games but we prefer harder difficulties if it offers interesting challenge. I think the same reasoning applies here.
I agree with the rule of TASing games in harder difficulties, because a TAS should have high standards. But we're not talking about easy or hard modes here. We're talking about differences between "any%" and "all levels". You can imagine the world selection as a Warp Zone. Movies with warps that aims to beat the game in the fastest time still have lots of meaning.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
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negative seven wrote:
In that case, one could abuse uninitialized RAM to start at world 8 in the original game to beat it faster.
I don't know if that counts as ACE. But in my opinion, if it really were possible, it would have been a category for SMB a long time ago.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Masterjun
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HappyLee wrote:
Rules are rules. The current Wiki: MovieRules are comprehensive enough. You can't change the rules just because you don't like my movie.
No that's actually exactly what we do here. That's why we have experienced staff dealing with this stuff.
Warning: Might glitch to credits I will finish this ACE soon as possible (or will I?)
Spikestuff
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HappyLee wrote:
Spikestuff wrote:
Since you are stating half the publications should be removed, cause you're acting in a manor right now which is just astoundingly bad.
No, that was by your logic. You said my TAS doesn't accomplish anything, yet it's the fastest completion of this hack.
lol okay, whatever floats your imaginary boat since you're self-inserting things I didn't state in the first place. Are you probably taking what despoa wrote as something I wrote? Actually I don't have any more interest to this topic of misinterpreting rules since all you're doing is point fingers and blame others (especially when you believed I stated something that I didn't).
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I think the problem Spikestuff is pointing out is that your run is effectively duplicate content of the existing run, even if your run does technically complete the game in the fastest possible time.
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And even if you did save frames in those levels compared to the current publication, the fact of the matter here is you're using a level select feature that's available to you at the beginning of the game (i.e. doesn't need to be unlocked) and that breaks a rule that sadly appears haven't been clarified enough.
GMP
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HappyLee wrote:
You can imagine the world selection as a Warp Zone.
I guess that is precisely where we agree to disagree. One is literally just some text that can be clicked on and the other is a nicely incorporated gameplay that requires more gameplay to reach in the first place.
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despoa wrote:
the fact of the matter here is you're using a level select feature that's available to you at the beginning of the game (i.e. doesn't need to be unlocked) and that breaks a rule that sadly appears haven't been clarified enough.
There's no rule in Wiki: MovieRules that says level select features are banned. I can't break a rule that doesn't exist.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
InputEvelution
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HappyLee wrote:
There's no rule in Wiki: MovieRules that says level select features are banned. I can't break a rule that doesn't exist.
Memory wrote:
The rules were shortened in order for the average user to be able to understand them. They are not a comprehensive list of all precedents.
Noxxa
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To add another precedent, [2364] GBC Rockman DX3 by Noxxa in 00:25.40 was obsoleted by [2572] GBC Rockman DX3 by Noxxa in 23:33.92. The difference there was that the short run was caused by a faulty ROM that didn't handle save data correctly, as opposed to an in-game stage select - although that doesn't help the case of this submission. In-game stage selects are for IL runs, and not for any% movies that claim to beat the game. It's the same as skipping to the end of the game with a password - just because you can do it in the game, doesn't mean that it is considered beating the game for leaderboard or publication purposes.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Noxxa wrote:
To add another precedent, [2364] GBC Rockman DX3 by Noxxa in 00:25.40 was obsoleted by [2572] GBC Rockman DX3 by Noxxa in 23:33.92. The difference there was that the short run was caused by a faulty ROM that didn't handle save data correctly, as opposed to an in-game stage select - although that doesn't help the case of this submission.
I didn't use a faulty ROM, so I see no relevance.
Noxxa wrote:
In-game stage selects are for IL runs, and not for any% movies that claim to beat the game.
But the fact is I did beat the game. The ending is exactly the same as the published TAS.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
InputEvelution
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Just to clarify, HappyLee, is your belief that a newgame+ run like this one - [2744] Genesis Sonic 3 & Knuckles "newgame+" by marzojr & Aglar in 27:31.29 - a run that is able to start from whichever zone it likes - should start at the final level instead of the first?
Samsara
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Alright, then.
Wiki: MovieRules#MovieMustBeComplete wrote:
You are not allowed to skip levels with any form of intended level select feature.
This is a rule clarification, not a rule change. The rule has always existed. At no point in the site's history have we ever explicitly allowed users to do this. The few times we have allowed this were special exceptions we made, knowing the runs were breaking our rules. See: [802] SNES Biker Mice from Mars "final round" by Baxter in 05:12.62 That being said:
Wiki: MovieRules#Obsoletion wrote:
A movie with a later endpoint can obsolete a movie with an earlier endpoint if all content overlaps between the two. This includes single levels or difficulties being obsoleted by full game runs.
This has been here since I rewrote the rules over a year ago, and it was an update and clarification from the old rules:
Wiki: MovieRules/Legacy#ObsoletingAPublishedMovie wrote:
Movies for all games or episodes inside a multi-game or multi-episode game can obsolete individual movies that only play a single game or episode within the game.
This is a single world run. Even if we had allowed it in a special circumstance, it would be obsoleted by a run of the full game. Biker Mice from Mars would be obsoleted by a full game run as well. Considering the full run already exists and is currently published, we cannot even make an exception for this run. Here's the given example from the rules: [3740] A2600 Private Eye "Case 5" by ViGadeomes in 14:53.28 [3762] A2600 Private Eye by ViGadeomes in 29:52.99 And here's another fun example: [113] SNES Top Gear "one track" by Phil in 03:51.17 [3876] SNES Top Gear "2 players" by jmosx36 in 1:27:34.66 Phil's movie should have never been published in the first place. The judgement and publication of it was purely an abuse of power on his part:
This is not up for debate. Allowing this movie would be setting an incredibly dangerous precedent. It would mean any game with a level select system, whether it be a password or pressing a button at the title screen, could have its any% run obsoleted through usage of that level select. No speedrunning community, TAS or RTA, should be allowing this universally. We never have, we most likely never will.
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Noxxa
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HappyLee wrote:
I didn't use a faulty ROM, so I see no relevance.
The relevance is that of a movie that only plays the final stage being obsoleted by a movie that plays the full game. Your submission is trying the opposite, hence it is in conflict with precedent.
HappyLee wrote:
But the fact is I did beat the game. The ending is exactly the same as the published TAS.
As I said, it isn't considered beating the game for leaderboard or publication purposes. Many games allow skipping to the end with passwords or whatnot, and some even allow you to see the ending directly. However, the vast majority of people do not consider that to be beating the game. Beating the game means you start from the beginning, and finish at the ending. It doesn't mean you start at the final stage.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.