Joined: 7/18/2016
Posts: 137
Location: 🇺🇸 United States
Bagel Brothers is done, and another 10 seconds of time save has been found for both TASes! Incredible! Though the video enters the level as Berzerker, you would actually enter as Cyclone in the full-game TAS. Not to worry though as there is a hidden Berzerker helmet near the start.
Favini also describes a time-saving technique I've never thought of nor have I seen anyone else discuss (edit: RandomPieIV has talked about it before). If you align the camera in a certain way when touching the flag (i.e., aligning the screen edges to the block grid), you can reduce the number of blocks on-screen and therefore the total time it takes for the screen to transition to the holodeck style. Even the types of blocks on screen make a difference—blank and background tiles appear to be removed at a rate of 7 per frame, while solid tiles convert to gray at a rate of 3 per frame. Favini saved 6 frames in this video just by taking all this into account. I calculate that at the two extremes (all-blocks misaligned vs no-blocks aligned) the holodeck transition can take anywhere from 40 to 105 frames.
Link to video
Joined: 7/18/2016
Posts: 137
Location: 🇺🇸 United States
I don't think anyone is tackling improving those TASes right now, though there are many known improvements that have been discovered but not yet reported in a centralized manner. Maybe I should do that one day in this thread. Anyway, Favini's main focus seems to be on TASing the ROM hack Kid Chameleon 2: Heady Metal's Revenge, and a TAS of the full game was being worked on for a while, but I believe the project had to be put on hold for a bit due to the immense amount of work involved. I don't blame them, optimizing movement in this game can be a real pain.
Joined: 7/18/2016
Posts: 137
Location: 🇺🇸 United States
Alright everyone, time for another update from Favini01!
A huge time save was found in the Land Below that utilizes the backwards bouncing off enemies trick to full effect. Reworking this into a full-game TAS context, this means we would do the Maximum Levels TAS strat of using Skycutter for the second half of the level instead of Eyeclops, avoid the telepad and collect the 10 diamonds (so that's 10 extra diamonds for the Any% TAS) and then get a hyperspeed bounce off the scorpion in the hallway. This would end the level as Skycutter with 1 HP, so it would also save a full transformation animation in the Final Marathon.
Link to video
A brand-new technique which we have given the rather appropriate nickname of "Edging" is a strat as fascinating as the nickname is sensual, LOL. As Favini describes it:
To sum up, you can fall off a ledge and land on the same ledge. Just make sure to duck before falling; otherwise, you would fall down since you would instantly go 1 pixel lower after falling. This method allows you to inflict damage every 6 frames.
Below is a video where Red Stealth uses Edging to obliterate Shishkaboss. In a full-game context, it looks like this technique may go on to only yield a timesave in Boomerang Bosses (no video of this yet), as the new methods for beating Shishkaboss and Bagel Brothers with Berzerker appear much faster.
Link to video
And yes, the strat also works with Maniaxe!
Link to video
Breaking through the Beneath the Twisted Hills rock block wall as Kid. That's right, you can now break a block even if you are adjacent to it from below. How is this possible? As Favini says:
If the character is near a wall and he turns around right before a bounce, he will break the block of the wall right above him.
The question is, can it be done with Micromax? Not to worry, this trick works with any helmet!! I would guess that Micromax can beat this level even faster than Kid, as no manipulation of the nearby shifting blocks would be required. Thus, this discovery just straight up saves at least 25 seconds over the current Any% TAS. Truly remarkable.
Link to video
Favini has posted a full TAS. 10:29. That is 2 minutes and 18 seconds faster than the currently published one is 12:47 by RandomPie, which was already one and and a half minute faster than one by me.
Link to video
I commented that I hoped that he would submit it. We'll see.
Joined: 7/20/2011
Posts: 359
Location: 🇺🇸 United States
That's pretty insane, I can see a lot of work and research went into that. Can't believe there's over 2 minutes of improvement from an already short TAS. This would probably be my personal Sega TAS of 2025 if it was ever submitted. I would love to see this optimization for the All levels run as well, but that's over twice as long currently so would probably be an undertaking, especially since it seems like he's been working on this one for well over a year now.
Joined: 7/18/2016
Posts: 137
Location: 🇺🇸 United States
Favini01 gave me permission to submit the run on their behalf, so head over there now to vote on it! https://tasvideos.org/10125S
The site wouldn't allow me to submit unless I provided a registered TASVideos username as an author, so I added mine. Since I didn't contribute to this TAS in any way, hopefully a moderator can remove my name without issue.
In addition to what Winslinator said 2 years ago in this thread:
You can see many of the videos Winslinator linked in this thread are now obsoleted by a few frames, but I improved this IL TAS by almost 2 seconds:
Link to video
The current TAS takes the telepad route, but you would take the flag in a High Score TAS, so The Land Below would look like that, at least for the second part.
About the edging trick:
Winslinator wrote:
In a full-game context, it looks like this technique may go on to only yield a timesave in Boomerang Bosses (no video of this yet), as the new methods for beating Shishkaboss and Bagel Brothers with Berzerker appear much faster.
This is the video Winslinator was referring to:
Link to video
In Hills of the Warrior 1, I would use Cyclone instead of Skycutter so I can skip a couple levels with the out of bounds trick later.
Link to video
In this video I get hit by the wall of shooter blocks in the middle of the level, but I also found a way to bypass the bullets: https://tasvideos.org/UserFiles/Info/639092109683463660
I improved the User File above by 29 frames by collecting the diamond at the beginning: https://tasvideos.org/UserFiles/Info/639120523073328488
The diamond cancels the prize bonus and prevents lag during the score tally screen as well. Note that this doesn't save time in the IL TAS itself though, as I already lost the hit bonus. The lag only occurs if there are too many bonuses at the end.
Link to video
For anyone interested, this is the fastest way possible to beat Bloody Swamp, one of the hardest levels in Kid Chameleon, using the best transformation.
From the video description:
I have implemented a few minor optimizations throughout this level over TheRandomPie_IV's Maximum Levels TAS. However, losing Skycutter in Frosty Doom to beat this level as Kid, just like I did in my current TAS, is still faster overall.
Unfortunately, beating Bloody Swamp with Skycutter is about 15 frames slower. The problem is that Skycutter can't perform the out-of-bounds glitch like the other characters, as it can only do so via enemy bounces.
This is how Skycutter would beat Elsewhere 15:
Link to video
Link to video
I just found out that I can trigger the out-of-bounds glitch even in Crab Cove, even though this level has a block in the second column and nothing in the first.
But that's not all. It's even possible to take the unreachable telepad! Why didn't I think of that before?
Here are the user files:
Elsewhere 7 telepad: https://tasvideos.org/UserFiles/Info/639254189048932743
Impossible telepad: https://tasvideos.org/UserFiles/Info/639254190351191161
These are the two possible routes we can take:
Route 1: Devil's Marsh 1 > Elsewhere 6 > Devil's Marsh 2 > Knight's Isle > Whale Grotto > Hoverboard Beach > Pyramids of Peril.
Route 2: Devil's Marsh 1 > The Caged Beasts > Crab Cove > Elsewhere 7 > Hoverboard Beach > Pyramids of Peril.
The first route has always been considered faster than the second route, until now. However, with the out-of-bounds glitch in Crab Cove I just discovered, and the archer midair bounce glitch in Hoverboard Beach I discovered 2 years ago, the second route is now faster.
I estimate this new route could save at least 7 seconds, without taking into account the 3-second extra life animation in the score tally screen. Since the new route awards fewer points than the old one, the time save should be between 7 and 10 seconds.
In Crab Cove, unlike most of the levels in the game, you lose 2 hit points while you are out-of-bounds, just like in Highwater Pass 2. If you lose your transformation while you are out-of-bounds, for some reason the character will be instantly returned within the level boundaries. For this reason, having 3 hit points or being full health is required to beat Crab Cove with the out-of-bounds glitch.
In Hoverboard Beach, if you hit an archer and then lose your transformation or grab another helmet, for some reason the archer acts as if he didn't get hit at all. For this reason, you can't just hit the archer with the sword; you need to lose Red Stealth first and then bounce on the archer.
Here is a showcase of the archer glitch I made 2 years ago with Berzerker:
Link to video
And here is the Eyeclops version Winslinator made a few days later:
Link to video
Here is how the new route plays out:
You should beat Devil's Marsh 1 and the Caged Beasts with Red Stealth damageless to enter Crab Cove at full health. Since The Caged Beasts awards a path bonus, you should grab a prize to avoid a massive amount of lag frames during the score tally screen.
Since we don't have Cyclone anymore, Hoverboard Beach should be done with the archer midair bounce glitch, and Pyramids of Peril with Micromax to enter the 1-block corridor without waiting for the platform to go up.
Here are the exact pixel dimensions of every transformation:
Kid:
Width: 11 pixels
Height: 32 pixels
Skycutter:
Width: 21 pixels
Height: 32 pixels
Cyclone:
Width: 15 pixels
Height: 32 pixels
Red Stealth:
Width: 15 pixels
Height: 32 pixels
Eyeclops:
Width: 15 pixels
Height: 32 pixels
Juggernaut:
Width: 47 pixels
Height: 16 pixels
Iron Knight:
Width: 15 pixels
Height: 32 pixels
Berzerker:
Width: 15 pixels
Height: 32 pixels
Maniaxe:
Width: 15 pixels
Height: 32 pixels
Micromax:
Width: 9 pixels
Height: 16 pixels
As you can see at the start of Diamond Edge in the current TASes, the character runs over 1-block holes without falling. That's because the character is on a block in a frame, and in the next frame he is on the next block.
A block in this game is 16 pixels wide and high. The speed cap in this game is 3:128 on the ground and 2:160 in midair.
Red Stealth is 15 pixels wide, so he has only 2 pixels of space in the hole. So that means a speed of at least 2 pixels per frame is required for him to pass a gap without falling, which is perfectly doable for him.
Kid is only 11 pixels wide, so he has 6 pixels of space in the hole. So that means a speed of at least 6 pixels per frame is required for him to pass a gap without falling, which is way too fast for him.
In addition to Red Stealth, Crab Cove can also be done with Cyclone, Eyeclops, Iron Knight, Berzerker, and Maniaxe. Kid is too small to trigger the out-of-bounds glitch in Crab Cove, plus he has only 2 hit points.
Crab Cove is one of those levels where you can take two different telepads in the same place. Unlike the Elsewhere 7 telepad, the character doesn't take any damage from the impossible telepad. This telepad has always been considered impossible to take in a normal playthrough without using cheats or hacking, until now.
Here is the video where I introduced the out-of-bounds glitch for the first time 2 years ago. For those interested, I recommend reading the video description to see how it works:
Link to video
Here is the video and the user file by Winslinator where he showed the RTA strategy: https://tasvideos.org/UserFiles/Info/638777557531411921Link to video
Let me know your thoughts and feel free to ask any questions.
