Post subject: Contra + SuperC DualTAS
AnS
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When I first realised how innovative the idea of running several games simultaneously is, I began to recommend first dualtas (MMX1+2) everyone I know. But after first excitement (by the fact itself) most of people said it's not that cool as it sounds. Yeah, the execution is great and technically perfect, but it's difficult to catch the feeling of synchronism between right and left part. In MMX1+2 there are too many cases of playing one game while another shows something unimportant and doesn't react any input - of course it's fair trick (and unavoidable in MM games), but it somehow ruines the concept of controlling two characters by one joystick. In ideal there should be perfect synchronization between every significant action (actually - between actions that only LOOK significant). E.g. when in first game character jumps, another characters should jump as high and land at the same time. I decided to make something that would aim on the art of synchro-actions. I hope, this Contra pack shows whole essence of dualTASing, giving people feeling that one gamepad is physically connected to two consoles. That's definitely not a speedrun. Main goal is to show awesome synchronization of two characters, so that it becomes obvious they both are controlled by one input, even if viewer doesn't know about it from description (concept? hmm..) You may notice cases of exchanging time for 'entertainment' or better to say for actions that visually coincide. Like in SynchronizedSwimming - it's not the time that matters. These two games suit dualtasing very well, although SuperC levels are bigger and more intense. It appears not to be that "impossible" to perform, it only takes impressive amount of time and patience. The hardest part is to sync boss battles so that both levels end almost simultaneously. Following differences between Contra and SuperC make me think the run can be completed within 13 minutes (comparable to SuperC speedrun). Or within 14, if I'm gonna trade more time for art. * Shooting direction. In SuperC the direction of shooting is defined by previous frame input, and in Contra it's defined by current input. This feature allows to release bullet in different directions by pressing B only once. But I try not to use it everywhere because of aiming on synchronization. Those wasted shots underline the link between two games, and I don't see a reason not to waste them for good. * jumping frame. In Contra the frame when you start jumping (from the ground) will not count directional input (you should press directional button next frame after pressing A). But in SuperC it counts, so you can jump directly up in Contra and right/left in SuperC. * Contra's jump is little higher. In SuperC character lands 2 frames earlier, so I can abuse this to make another jump. Meanwhile, these 2 frames don't make any visual difference for viewer, which is good for synchronization. * L+R jump difference. When you press Left and Right simultaneously while jumping, you'll receive useable desync. In Contra the left direction has highest priority, while in SuperC the right direction has. I'm not going to use it frequently, you understand why. Current result To achieve the effect, FCEU windows should be placed side-by-side like in MMX1+2 run. More I watch current result more I see it could be performed better, but right now I don't feel like starting all over. First I planned to make the whole run (or at least post WIP with 4-5 levels completed), but today I found this L+R glitch and now I'm here to ask everyone - should I continue current recording (sounds like quick&dirty solution, but it's not-so-dirty in terms of entertainment), or it should be made from the beginning with more careful planning? (but this may postpone final release up to next year, cause I have other projects and stuff. And I'm even not sure I'd have so much motivation.) Too bad, hexeditor won't help here - movies desync after FCM-FMV-FCM conversion (flaw of Nesmock?). So, I want to have clear reason - if there's strong need to polish this to perfectness. Actually, my dream is to make 2-players DualTAS, but seems I'd gonna hate Contra series after losing all nerves into this 1-player DualTAS. :) I'm open to any suggestions, and I'd especially appreciate ideas of synchronized actions to perform it later levels (yeah, I already know where I'll use synchro-death!) Also I'd be glad if someone makes AVI for this WIP, because I'm not familiar with any video soft to merge 2 AVIs.
nesrocks
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Wow!! Contra + SuperC for massive damage! go for it! Genji2 reproduces battles that actually happened in ancient SuperC. for instance, flip over this giant enemy robot crab and attack it's weak point for massive damage after doing your real time weapon change!? edit: yea, of course, what adelikat said! isn't it obvious? 4 player action for massive explosion damage!
adelikat
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both game should be run as 2-player ;)
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
AnS
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FODA wrote:
Genji2 reproduces battles that actually happened in ancient SuperC. for instance, flip over this giant enemy robot crab and attack it's weak point for massive damage after doing your real time weapon change!?
If you mean 3rd level miniboss, I'll come to him with Laser, so there's no need to jump over - it'll be finished in few seconds. And still I don't rush for fastest time that much.
adelikat wrote:
both game should be run as 2-player ;)
You want me to die, eh? :)
nesrocks
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Offtopic: AnS you might want to watch the innovations sony presented at the E3 conference.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IH2w2l1JTs4&search=sony%20e3%20conference
AnS
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FODA wrote:
Offtopic: AnS you might want to watch the innovations sony presented at the E3 conference.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IH2w2l1JTs4&search=sony%20e3%20conference
Hope that's not a screamer :))) Edit: Okay, now I understand everything. But won't you comment current WIP?
nesrocks
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I'm not confortable with ending and starting all levels at the same time... maybe it's just me but it felt something forced. For example, you don't need to wait for the intro title to press start. press it much earlier. also i sure do prefer it to be 2p on both games
Post subject: Contra + Super C
Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
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I don't have the roms, so I can't watch the WIP, but I love the idea. As awesome as the X1+X2 movie was, a new movie that focuses on the syncronization rather than working around it would be even more entertaining! But make it single player in each game. Runs where both players are controlled by a single person are cool. Synchronized runs are cool. But your brain will explode if you work too hard on two controllers, two games, and four players. I guess you already have two syncronized players, right?
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BOOOOOOO! I HATE HOW THAT DAMN THING SAYS "DONT WASTE YOUR MONEY" for the PS3. The PS3 is going to blow every damn system that exists out of the water!! 500$ is expensive but just wait some years and let tons of games come out then buy the system used or refurbished, simple as that.
Change my sig. again, and I will murder your pet fish.
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GuanoBowl wrote:
BOOOOOOO! I HATE HOW THAT DAMN THING SAYS "DONT WASTE YOUR MONEY" for the PS3. The PS3 is going to blow every damn system that exists out of the water!! 500$ is expensive but just wait some years and let tons of games come out then buy the system used or refurbished, simple as that.
It's actually 599 US. dollars! And no one will buy that when we have WII!! (Any off-topic points Bisqwit?)
JXQ
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GuanoBowl wrote:
500$ is expensive but just wait some years and let tons of games come out then buy the system used or refurbished, simple as that.
1) If everyone does this, these good games will not have a chance to come out. 2) Sony's systems habitually need to be refurbished anyway, with their outstanding quality control. I agree with the video, don't waste your money. Also that video is hilarious!!11!
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
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Sony is a better product than Microsoft in my opinion :P Just look at the games Sony offers for the PSX and PS2 compared to those of XboX and Nintendo. That excerpts games that are playable on all system. With the success of Halo, you would think that Halo 2 would have been a hell of a lot better but they just kept every single stage with the same weapons (oh I know about the 3 new weapons, very L33T! pffff)with $10 modifications. The bluetooth technology that Sony is putting into their system will be my buy over the lame 360 (which did what? oh yeah scratched your $60 games because they sent bad systems out). Also I heard that the games can be controlled by your movement of your controller(tilt the controller left and the guy moves left). How amazing can that be? XboX needs to redesign their controllers as well as their system. As you can all tell, I hate the XboX. EXCEPT NINJA GAIDEN BLACK, which is by far the sweetest game on the system. Just my opinion :) Back to the topic, the run looks funny just playing 1 video at a time. Keep up the good work!
Change my sig. again, and I will murder your pet fish.
Post subject: Sorry, I had to.
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Don't forget the PS3's games! I mean, who could turn down Genji 2? In case you don't know, it's an action game based on real Japanese history and features historical battles with giant crabs. You can flip the crab over and attack its weak point for massive damage. Oh, I almost forgot about the innovative features such as real time weapon change!
JXQ
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That sounds very innovative and completely worth 599 US Dollars!
Guanobowl wrote:
Sony is a better product than Microsoft in my opinion :P
I never disagreed with this :) Although it's kind of like watching Frasier and Niles get into a fight.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
AnS
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Remember guys, God won't listen to your opinions on console wars until your post contains at least few words abour my DualTAS. ;)
FODA wrote:
I'm not confortable with ending and starting all levels at the same time... maybe it's just me but it felt something forced. For example, you don't need to wait for the intro title to press start. press it much earlier.
Well, I can do nothing to things that look intentional because they actually are intentional. :) The thruth is, SuperC is longer than Contra in many ways, so I always need to slow down Contra progress or it'll end several minuter earlier than SuperC. Also, isn't that fact of fighting two bosses simultaneously sound interesting? i think, I should continue to start/end levels at the same time.
FODA wrote:
also i sure do prefer it to be 2p on both games
Ok, if nothing will change, first I'll finish this 1p run and then (maybe after some other projects completed) try to make flawless-2p-destroy-everything TAS.
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When talking with AngerFist about what project we should do together, this idea also crossed our minds. I think the most interesting dual tas of contra and super contra is a 2 player run. You will have far more options this way. The wip you posted at your first post was only a test, showing the concept, right? If not, I think you should redo, since it can be improved by a lot. I also think you shouldn't try to syncronize the levels. Just aim for the fastest time, so sure you can lose some time at contra if it profits the super contra movie, but waiting at the boss like at the wip will only make the movie slower.
AnS
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Baxter wrote:
I also think you shouldn't try to syncronize the levels. Just aim for the fastest time.
Speed vs. Entertainment again........... This way I'll have much less options of synchro-action. And anyway, at the end of Contra I'm gonna have 1-2 minutes to spend for nothing (waiting fo SuperC).
Baxter wrote:
The wip you posted at your first post was only a test, showing the concept, right? If not, I think you should redo, since it can be improved by a lot..
Well, there are things to improve, but also there are debatable moments I'd like to preserve. Like this one at the beginning: when I shoot first soldier (to let them both explode at the same time) I jump back - this action makes sense only when watching two movies. Sure I lose some time for this, but I don't know if this should be removed from final version?.. And some other "wasted' movements... Just IS there real reason to make yet another speedrun? That's what I created the topic for (mostly).
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Since the movie will only end as quickly as Super C is done, I think sacrificing time in Contra just to progress better in Super C makes sense. But after Contra finishes, you can start again. Would it be worth the trouble to focus on Contra, and run it twice, while still passing Super C once, and try to finish at the same time? :O
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GuanoBowl wrote:
Just look at the games Sony offers for the PSX and PS2 compared to those of XboX and Nintendo.
PSX and PS2 sold better than Xbox and Nintendo, which is why companies were more willing to develop PSX and PS2 games than for the other systems. As far as I can tell, that's the one major reason PS2 has so many good games. If PS3 sells badly, the big game developers will go after Wii and Xbox 360 instead. Anyway, to get back on topic: How do you plan to record both at the same time? I tried something like this as well, but since you can't control two FCEU windows at the same time (only the one that's active) the only way I could think to make it work would be to record two simultaneous movies, constantly switch windows, and advance one frame at a time for each, making sure each frame has the exact same input. Not only was it a pain in the ass, but I found out soon after I did one or two frames incorrectly and they went completely out of sync with each other (this was only after maybe a minute of in-game time, so over a period of however long the whole game takes, it's ridiculously inefficient). What's the easiest/best way to do this?
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Hyena wrote:
GuanoBowl wrote:
Just look at the games Sony offers for the PSX and PS2 compared to those of XboX and Nintendo.
PSX and PS2 sold better than Xbox and Nintendo, which is why companies were more willing to develop PSX and PS2 games than for the other systems. As far as I can tell, that's the one major reason PS2 has so many good games. If PS3 sells badly, the big game developers will go after Wii and Xbox 360 instead.
Off the topic again: Game developers are starting to get away from PS3 because they fear it won't sell so well due the high price, and because games are so freaking expensive and pretty hard to develop. Wii and DS are the cheapeast and easiest consoles from game developers view.
AnS
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Baxter wrote:
When talking with AngerFist about what project we should do together, this idea also crossed our minds.
Oh, so why did you refuse this idea? Also, Do you know some useful Contra/SuperC tricks to exploit (that I haven't mentioned above)?
Inzult wrote:
But after Contra finishes, you can start again. Would it be worth the trouble to focus on Contra, and run it twice, while still passing Super C once, and try to finish at the same time? :O
I don't think so. Are there some advantages of running Contra twice??
Hyena wrote:
How do you plan to record both at the same time?
I use Luke's fceu 0.98.16 (compiled into Windows executable).
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AnS wrote:
Hyena wrote:
How do you plan to record both at the same time?
I use Luke's fceu 0.98.16 (compiled into Windows executable).
I see. Where can I find more details about this? I have a wacky two-games-at-a-time speedrun idea, but I really need to test it out before I can decide it would be worth making (and that it would make for an entertaining run) Edit: Nevermind. A 20-page thread wasn't hard to find. I guess I'll post my questions there.
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AnS wrote:
Inzult wrote:
But after Contra finishes, you can start again. Would it be worth the trouble to focus on Contra, and run it twice, while still passing Super C once, and try to finish at the same time? :O
I don't think so. Are there some advantages of running Contra twice??
Not beyond filling time.
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In my opinion speed should be a goal (even if not the *main* goal, but at least *a* goal) even in a dual TAS. Not aiming for speed *at all* makes, IMO, the dual video boring pretty soon. Yes, there may be cool and funny synchronization, but if it doesn't have any set goal (eg. complete the games reasonably fast) then it's just a show-off which gets old in a minute or two. There was one excellent thing about the Megaman X1+X2 video: Both games were ended in the exact same frame, and it tried to complete the games reasonably fast, without unneeded delays in both games at the same time (IOW the shorter game may have to "wait" for the longer game in order to get a perfect ending synchronization, but the longer one was nevertheless done reasonably fast and there were basically no needless delays). Another approach would be, of course, trying to end each game as fast as is possible (in such a dual run) even if it means that one game ends much sooner than the other. However, there's a virtue in trying to make both games end at the same time. So, once again, IMO speed should be a goal. Needless delays (except for one game waiting for the other to "catch up") should be avoided and the games should be completed as fast as is reasonably possible. If speed is not a goal at all, the videos become boring quite fast.
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Warp wrote:
IMO
Warp wrote:
So, once again, IMO
Feel free to type in my opinion or if you ask me.
Warp wrote:
IOW
Another great short word for? *sighs*
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P