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Personman wrote:
It seems obvious to me that there's a real market for all three solo-character runs, and they each deserve an any% branch.
Beyond that I don't personally care what further branches are allowed, but it seems really silly to me to reject this run based on a hypothetical about a game with 100 characters. That's not what we have, we have an actual real game with 3 characters, a lively community, and a history of producing extremely high-quality & popular TASes.
I was not arguing specifically in favor of rejection of this run, just explaining why the rule exists the way it does.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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EZGames69 wrote:
Memory wrote:
the content isn't THAT different between characters. Ultimately each character has about 1-3 actually unique abilities to each other.
Small things like that can lead to significant changes in both routing and execution. The lack of tails in Solo Sonic means that Level wraps cant be done in zones like hydro city for example. This gives Solo Sonic a chance to show what the fastest movement in that stage can look like. I dont think the focus should be on what changes were made to the Character, but how those affect the run overall.
Memory wrote:
There's also the issue that there's actually only 3 characters, but two of them can be used together in a single playthrough (Sonic+Tails).
I don't see what the issue is here. Both Sonic Solo and Tails Solo go though each stage differently. Sonic of course used alot of spin dashing, Tails uses a combination of both spin dashing AND flying. Tails is also able to perform level wraps on his own, and doesn't need Sonic to do them. With Sonic + Tails, it's the best of both worlds, while it also introduces very interesting glitches such as the Knuckles intro at the beginning. It's not like Sonic+Tales features all the content you can get from Sonic Solo for example, so I dont think it's that big of an issue here.
You're looking at this purely from a TAS aspect. As a casual player, I definitely would not feel the need to play all 4 character combinations. Sonic & Tails is not different enough to me from solo sonic or solo tails to warrant a separate playthrough. Or perhaps vice versa. Maybe I wouldn't feel the need to do solo sonic if I did Sonic & Tails. In that sense the character differences are minor. They matter in a more esoteric sense, which is noted in the rules to be acceptable, but that makes it identical to these so called "community defined" branches that you claim are so different.
EZGames69 wrote:
Memory wrote:
I am not strictly opposed to another branch being added but the idea that we should accept every option that a game provides is ridiculous.
Then it would be best to look at movies of each branch that the game provides under different rules. The current rules regarding branch limiting should focus on limiting community created branches, while a different set of rules should be made that focus on game provided ones.
Why? I have not once seen a good reason to do so.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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EZGames69 wrote:
I’ll just give some of my thoughts here.
It’s a bit of a strange and unfortunate situation for a game like this. One where there’s unique content that can be showcased for each character. Due to this, It makes sense why there would be multiple categories made for this game. But I believe the rule for limiting branches of games unfairly targets games like this.
I fully expect some comparisons to be made between this and Super Metroid, where there was an over-saturation of branches for that game. I have to disagree with that comparison because that’s not a game that offers different play styles in the same was as SK3. For one, you only play as one character throughout the game, and branches for that game would be completely community created (besides any% and 100% obviously). Speedrunners can come up with many different branches for games like that to spice things up if any% or 100% becomes stale. Where as for Sonic 3, the branches for speedruns are not community created, with the exception being Ring Attack and NewGame+. The other branches are game modes that each have unique things to each one. They have always been there even before speedrunning became a thing. To me, the limitation of branches makes more sense for Super Metroid than Sonic 3 because Sonic 3 gives you more content to increase replay-ability, where as SM doesn’t exactly do that.
I think the rule should really apply to limit the amount of community created branches for each game, not for branches offered by the game. If there’s worry about a game’s number of branches flooding the movie page, then maybe we should be changing the way movies are displayed on that page instead. But that’s a different discussion for another time.
I don't agree with this assessment. The characters are ultimately going through the same levels as each other with the same objectives (aside from the optional 100% or ring attack goals). If a game had 100 different characters with minor differences, we're not accepting 100 different branches. This is NOT a game with separate level sets like doom etc, the content isn't THAT different between characters. Ultimately each character has about 1-3 actually unique abilities to each other. There's also the issue that there's actually only 3 characters, but two of them can be used together in a single playthrough (Sonic+Tails).
You can argue that the game presents them as separate options but you could make the same arguments for difficulty and even things like numbers of continues or lives in some games.
I am not strictly opposed to another branch being added but the idea that we should accept every option that a game provides is ridiculous.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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If there are a large number of games that are broken without bios as infamousknight and real96 are suggesting, we might want to make bios a prerequisite to use dshawk at all.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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I do think there needs to be a cap on these branches soon, big genesis game or otherwise it is a lot of branches for one game.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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0% doesn't seem like it fits our current branch labeling formula. Could "Replay Glitch" work or is there anything else that could be described by that?
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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which of you were the primary TASer?
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Dimon12321 wrote:
Wow! I thought N+ was a flash game for PC only. I'll wait for Bizhawk release and than try this game.
Original N was flash for PC, N+ was released for other platforms.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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This TAS is excellent. To me it achieves something that is very difficult to achieve in TASing, personality and style. To me this movie feels like a cartoon character bending the laws of reality to mess with their opponent, which in this case is the game itself. Think this classic Looney Tunes scene. It's ironic or perhaps fitting considering the source material of the game here. The TAS messes around with the world, defying gravity, making sounds in tune to the music, even breaking the background in the train level. I definitely laughed in response to the start of the balloon level where he flew up past the top of the screen to reach the end early. Flying can sometimes feel cheap with TASes but here it feels satisfying. It is used to great effect in the playarounds during autoscrollers, which leads me to my one singular disappointment with the TAS. I feel the playaround on the train level loses a bit of... Well... Steam, and slows down towards the end.
The TAS also has some good variety to it, with a number of methods of movement on display. The more gimmicky stages didn't distract from the core gameplay, but actually added to the experience. Sure the gameplay in the American football section was fairly simplistic, but it felt superhuman jumping over all the opposing players regardless. The one potentially negative segment of the game was the roulette and the minigame chosen by the roulette after each level, but honestly, I found it kinda comical how Hamton was abused and they're honestly rather short.
I would demand this movie for stars if not for the playaround slowing down, but I still feel it's strong regardless.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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I disagree with Starring something just because the (potentially better) alternative branch is not done yet. I have no real opinions otherwise as I haven't watched the movie yet.
On Genpei, while the movie has quite a few good things, I didn't feel the movie blew me away. There was a little bit of grinding as well.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Nice improvement! Glad to see you back on this.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Bloopiero wrote:
Does [2966] GB Trip World by MUGG in 05:10.91 really deserve a place in Stars? It does have one cool glitch and a good rating, but in the end, it's a pretty unremarkable run, and it's not a very popular movie in general. And it's not like it balances that out with a ton of content or anything, seeing as it's the 3rd shortest movie in the tier and a GB game. Seems like a regular Moon to me, but that might just be my subjectivity at play, although Arc also suggested bumping it down in 2018.
I disagree with it being pretty unremarkable, there's a lot of variety and techniques beyond what you mentioned. The main unfortunate thing to me about the movie is the amount of pause spam causing a ringing sound.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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honestly the whole process of research is what makes TASing difficult to begin with. If you already know the inputs then obviously TASing this outcome would be easy
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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EZGames69 wrote:
I dont want hamton to go through what he did.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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EZGames69 wrote:
Bloopiero wrote:
If we're talking purely about gameplay speed, surely the famous [3662] A2600 Dragster by MrWint, Omnigamer in 00:08.39 submission would also fall under the triviality umbrella? RTA runners had achieved the time in this movie long before it was ever made, and there were no questions about it back then.
This is a different case since that movie is faster in frame count than RTA.
tbf the primary metric used for the run was IGT and it does match in that regard
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Aladdin is trivial on a conceptual level. You perform 0 gameplay and 0 difficult inputs. There is no optimization to be had.
Pinocchio was never actually rejected, it was cancelled, so no comment on that one.
#6345: MarbleousDave's NES Duck Hunt "All levels" in 1:15:12.15 in fact is noted as being obviously superhuman in terms of whether or not RTA could match, but it was still rejected for triviality due to it being trivial in a tool assisted setting.
The last one is especially key because to me it indicates that triviality is more than the ability of RTA players to match a time.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Memory wrote:
It sounds like the game is non-trivial to optimize, it's just short enough to be able to match.
Elaborate this, because it seems a contradicting statement to me.
I disagree that it's the game itself to be short, it's more like that the glitch discovered opened a loophole that allows to skip any TASing challenge.
The vast majority of games that I am aware of that have been rejected for triviality in the past have been rejected for being trivial on a conceptual level. For example, #5799: Flip & ajfirecracker's Genesis Aladdin, Disney's "game end glitch" in 00:02.64 is literally just setting a menu option. Here, the concept potentially allows for further optimization (movement is important), it's just not known to be possible.
EDIT: Something I saw somebody else bring up is that this could potentially encourage hiding work to prevent it from being replicated prior to a submission. I don't think this should be the be all end all deciding factor, but I don't like the idea of encouraging this.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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I'm not sure how I feel about this. This could be used as a precedent to reject any run where TAS happens to match RTA, and I'm not entirely sure that's what we want to do. What about cases where there are frame perfect ILs for a game performed by humans, but no RTA has strung them all together? Would we reject such a submission as well? What is triviality? Does the fact that RTA runners have performed it truly make it trivial? It sounds like the game is non-trivial to optimize, it's just short enough to be able to match.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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For clarification's sake, do you obtain magnet beam by spawning a physical magnet beam pickup and have Mega Man touch it or do you more or less have it written into your inventory?
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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ThunderAxe31 wrote:
I just want to say that I find it weird that NFL Street 1 and NFL Street 2 could be considered as similar games while on the other hand we accepted games that have been released on different platforms.
I didn't watch the movie, so take this just as a thought about this rule in general.
This is a fairly interesting point. I do feel either this rule or the rule about how we handle games across multiple platforms might need some adjustment. I doubt this game could be less different from NFL Street 1 than [3739] Arcade Samurai Shodown II by NhatNM in 11:36.43 is from [2709] PSX Samurai Shodown II by NhatNM in 17:10.02. The latter being a port of the first and seemingly intended to be identical!
I'm not sure this rule is really a good thing.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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A 10 minute bk2 is only about 50KB, which is fairly small.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Keep in mind that people frequently just do cutsceneless encodes anyways.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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It has been a long time coming, hasn't it?
Link to video
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Seconding Samsara
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
