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Alyosha wrote:
Let's take an even simpler example. Why is [2891] DS You Have to Burn the Rope DS by NitroGenesis in 00:25.87 a serious game (where incidently you cannot fail) and not a cleverly disguised reading comprhension test?
The answer now would seem to be 'because it's not designed like one,' but maybe it's just a really clever disguise? :O
You can argue in favor of anything if you make your arguments nonsensical enough and assume anything is not what it is and is actually a clever disguise of anything else. That does not move any real point forward though.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Warp wrote:
If this game used some kind of simple puzzles instead of math problems, would it be eligible for Vault?
If the answer is yes, then what exactly is it about math problems that makes it non-eligible? I think the principle of "no educational games" is being enforced too strictly here.
Please stop repeating questions while ignoring my answers.
Mothrayas wrote:
Warp wrote:
It really is looking to me that if this game was otherwise identical, but had some puzzles instead of math problems, there would be no discussion and it would be accepted, but just because it has math instead of puzzles, it's somehow being rejected based solely on that, as if math in video games was banned from the site. This feels extremely strange to me, and makes no sense.
Please read my last post before this one. A game's design as an educational title is not an accident, and if this game were non-educational it would be radically different. What-ifs about hypothetical identical games that just happen to miss their most central design piece make no sense.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Warp wrote:
Mothrayas wrote:
Do you consider a virtual equivalent of peg-in-hole a challenge?
So now it's up to how much challenge there is in the game? Where's that rule?
We are discussing definitions of educational/non-serious games, and the rule against non-serious games is in the Vault rules. Please keep up.
Since we already have a topic discussing the same issue, I'm not going to repeat everything about that here.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Radiant wrote:
Mothrayas wrote:
The rule is written and enforced exactly as intended, you don't need to put all the emphasis on "interpretation".
That's not a surprise: the rule was written by you and is being enforced by you. So clearly it is doing what you intended.
I wrote the rule specifically mentioning educational games, but it was defined and recently updated by another person, and enforced by yet another person. Hint, they both made multiple posts in this topic. Don't pretend I am the only person involved here.
Radiant wrote:
The question is how many people actually agree with this rule. I have so far been unable to find any discussion on this rule from before it was added (then again, such discussion may have been on IRC instead of in the forum). I don't see any problem with getting some more input on this.
I don't recall the exact circumstances of writing the rule or who was involved in it besides me, but I do know it came from this submission, which in its topic was nearly universally derided and the concept that it had to be published to the Vault was considered a joke by many in the thread.
That said, I don't think it was a new rule even then anyway - the Vault blanket-bans games that aren't considered serious games, and educational games are rarely considered serious games to begin with. The explicit mention of educational games would have been more of a clarification.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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The rule is written and enforced exactly as intended, you don't need to put all the emphasis on "interpretation".
And once again, the ban is not strict, it only applies to the Vault. If an educational game has interesting game mechanics, level progression, or interesting goals, it can be published to higher tiers.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Warp wrote:
Mothrayas wrote:
What sorts of Tetris or sports games do you play that have eliminated all challenge in gameplay?
You consider solving math problems, or putting objects in their proper slots, not challenging in the least?
Do you consider a virtual equivalent of peg-in-hole a challenge?
Warp wrote:
In terms of speedrunning, reaching the end as fast as possible is in itself a challenge.
This has nothing to do with anything in this discussion.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Warp wrote:
DrD2k9 wrote:
TASVideoAgent wrote:
<a>Mothrayas</a>: .... The player cannot take damage or die whatsoever, eliminating all challenge...
This is perhaps the best argument I've read against TASes of most educational games and likely the most valid way to help in determining when one is not worthy of consideration for vault.
That would eliminate all puzzle games as well. How much damage can you take eg. in Tetris? In the same vein it eliminates all sports games as well, for the same reason (even though sports games were just recently added to the acceptable categories).
What sorts of Tetris or sports games do you play that have eliminated all challenge in gameplay?
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Warp wrote:
I honestly can't understand why you are approaching this from the perspective of "does it have educational elements?", as if containing educational elements as a major mechanic automatically makes the game unpublishable, and thus it purely becomes a question of whether it has them or not (no matter how much of a "regular game" it is otherwise in terms of game mechanics, playing, level progression, and reaching an unambiguous ending).
No game is rendered strictly unpublishable due to this rule - it is a Vault-only rule.
Warp wrote:
I doubt that whoever wrote that rule had that in mind. Instead, I'm certain that he was thinking of educational games as an example of a typical "non-game". I doubt the intent was to disqualify all games that may have educational elements in them, regardless of what type of games they otherwise are. I don't think the spirit of the rule is being followed here, and instead its letter is, to an unhealthy degree.
No game is rejected for just having educational elements in them - but having educational elements as a primary mechanic and goal is what makes one an educational game, and fall under the rule of educational games.
Warp wrote:
It really is looking to me that if this game was otherwise identical, but had some puzzles instead of math problems, there would be no discussion and it would be accepted, but just because it has math instead of puzzles, it's somehow being rejected based solely on that, as if math in video games was banned from the site. This feels extremely strange to me, and makes no sense.
Please read my last post before this one. A game's design as an educational title is not an accident, and if this game were non-educational it would be radically different. What-ifs about hypothetical identical games that just happen to miss their most central design piece make no sense.
Warp wrote:
I would suggest that the Vault rules could benefit from an update in this regard. A clarification could be made what exactly is meant by "educational games", and in a manner that does not ban games like this one. The intent shouldn't be to ban games just because they contain educational elements to them.
How can any sort of clarification on the definition of educational games exclude this game? This is clearly an educational game and I don't see how you can call this not an educational game.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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That is one of the most amazing things I've ever seen. I'm amazed by how good the result looks and how immersive it appears.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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MESHUGGAH wrote:
Mothrayas wrote:
1. If the developer affirmed it's cancelled but does still provide an open release for it, then it can effectively be considered a finished game.
- Affirmation of the developer: I think it's a bit hard (finding the developer, contacting him, getting an answer). Of course it's a really good idea to add as many informations as possible about the homebrew game (you TASed) to "judge" it's development status.
- Cancelled: you rarely see this when we are talking about a really good quality game. I believe there should be some "aging" rule or something more clear. You know, projects sometimes disbanded, other thing happened, etc.
edit: in this specific case, I think you have great chances at contacting the developer: Official account https://twitter.com/morphcat
Personal, active in last few days account https://twitter.com/miau6502
The developer was already contacted, see scrimpeh's post. And I'm not sure what you're thinking of with an "aging" rule, but it sounds a lot less clear than the direct developer's statement that a homebrew game is no longer being developed.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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scrimpeh wrote:
Brilliant thread.
I'm TASing NES Super Bat Puncher at the moment (in as much spare time as I get for TASing currently, anyhow), and am unsure about how to go about a few things. I've asked some questions in this post and would like a judge's opinion on it.
1.Is this game publishable?
Super Bat Puncher is a homebrew game on the NES. A demo containing two levels has been released all the way back in 2011, but since then, very little has been heard from the game. The developers have since moved to other projects, which leads me to believe that the game is cancelled. As of now, the Demo is all that exists of Super Bat Puncher, and I do not want to wait any longer. The game definitely is TAS-worthy material, and I think it'd be a big shame if it couldn't be on the site because of the promise of a full version that may never happen.
EDIT: I've recieved word from the game's dev, who has confirmed the game is pretty much dead at this point.
2.When should I end the game?
After you defeat the second boss, the credits trigger. After the end, gameplay resumes and you can go to an area in the game to compelete a difficult bonus stage to get an extra item (see RaijinXBlade's old TAS). Most speedrunners I've seen (all three of them) exclude the bonus stage. Including the extra stage might add extra entertainment to the run, at the cost of having to sit through an unskippable credits sequence for a minute.
Yeah.
1. If the developer affirmed it's cancelled but does still provide an open release for it, then it can effectively be considered a finished game. So, as long as it follows homebrew requirements for the Vault (some degree of notability, which at a cursory glance it looks like it has) or for Moons, it can be published.
2. It sounds like the bonus stage is not needed for an any% movie, but would be required for a 100% completion movie. This is again at a cursory glance, I haven't looked into what would be required for a 100% sort of run (I think this answer should be sufficient for the questions asked anyhow).
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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The IsGGMode flag in the header should be recognized by the site parser to denote a GG movie, it just didn't apply it for some reason. Looks like that specific fix wasn't deployed on the live site somehow.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Alyosha wrote:
Carmen Sandiego is basically an aggrevated multiple choice test about reading comprehension, hard to get more school house education then that. Education isn't just math.
Actually, many games require you to be able to read in order to understand and play. Reading and reading skills are certainly school subjects. As a current example, take [3590] SMS King's Quest: Quest for the Crown by BZero & Challenger in 03:07.46 . Played casually, this is basically little more then a big reading comprehension test. The only reason it's not classified as an educational game is because nobody called it that. If an edutainment company had published the exact same game and called it educational, would it suddenly become unpublishable?
Reading comprehension, mathematical calculation, historical knowledge, linguistic ability, problem-solving skills and so on are all various tests of the user's intelligence or knowledge. That of course does not mean that any use or test of them means it is designed or intended for education. You can design game mechanics surrounding any of these tests but do so for challenge purposes rather than education purposes. It's just how you design the game, how you present these tests to the user, what sorts of puzzles you make out of them.
But the choice as to whether a game is educational or not is more than just a label on the box. It's a key facet behind game design decisions, behind visual appearance and prominence decisions, behind what the game designer wants to show to the user in order to make them absorb their educational contents as best as possible to the best of the designer's ability. There's a whole science behind this sort of design. And yes, if a game does exhibit that type of game design foremost, that makes it an educational game not fit for the Vault.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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lapogne36 wrote:
Question mainly about PSX and N64 emulation. Let's suppose that there is a game which has serious emulation issues with the currently accepted emulator, but is emulated well on a previously accepted emulator (PSXjin or Mupen64-rr for example). Does it mean that :
1) the game is currently unTASable
or
2) a derogation can be made by a judge to allow a TAS of this game on the previously accepted emulator
For very specific circumstances, an exception can be made. For example, I've given an exception to Hyperresonance to submit Banjo-Kazooie done in Mupen64-rr, because BizHawk's Mupen64plus core actually misses out on a physics trick available on N64. However, before such an exception case can be submitted, it's also required to get a publisher willing to publish the movie if it gets accepted.
These sorts of exceptions will be very rare, though.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Can you explain how either game features education as a primary game element and purpose? Especially in Bible Buffet I'm not seeing anything remotely like that, it's a virtual board game with some puzzle game segments. Any educational element, if even present, appears to be secondary in that game.
Either way, movies from late 2012 when the Vault was literally just introduced make poor precedents, and many runs were accepted that with later Vault rule clarifications would have been rejected. That's not to say anything about the legitimacy of the movie in question, just that it cannot really be used as a precedent.
DrD2k9 wrote:
Mothrayas wrote:
The problem isn't so much with the amount of concentration or effort required, but that you work directly on a school subject, and it's designed to have you learn said school subject. At that point, you're not doing a recreational activity (as puzzle solving, and games in general are), but you're doing effectively dressed up homework. It's not really a game at that point, it's a tool.
Via analogy, lets use this logic for a different recreational activity: Watching a TV show like "Star Trek" would be considered a recreational activity as it's not intended to teach anything. But watching a TV show like "NOVA" would NOT be a recreational activity because the primary purpose of the documentary was to teach you about scientific aspects of the world in which we live (school subject). Therefore using the above logic "Star Trek" is an entertainment medium, but "NOVA" is just a dressed up education tool and should not be considered a real show.
Sounds absurd that way doesn't it?
The definition of game includes an activity that one engages in for recreation or amusement - the definition of show does not require such a meaning. Your analogy holds no grounds in reason and is a textbook example of false equivalence.
DrD2k9 wrote:
The only thing about this particular submission that fails to differentiate it as a game instead of a tool then, is the extra step of solving a math problem before you can shoot a particular piece of trash off the screen or enter a given hole in the enemy ship.
Here are two examples of similar goals from games that are already accepted on the site with a key difference being the added step of math is missing.
1) Shoot stuff on screen from a cockpit - Top Gun
2) Hit a particular hole while dodging enemies, then do it again multiple times - The key level of Donkey Kong Jr.
Indeed, these games would be different if their focal game mechanic was different and if the game was designed to have education at the forefront of gameplay. This is a key difference that not only changes how the game is played, but also changes the overall design goal of the game and how it is intended to be used.
DrD2k9 wrote:
I recognize that the site primarily wants entertaining videos and educational titles aren't usually very entertaining. But the whole point of the Vault being created to begin with was as a repository of well-made but poorly-entertaining speed-based TAS runs. So, where's the harm in hosting/publishing well-made but poorly-entertaining speed-based TAS runs of educational titles?
The Vault is for tool-assisted speedrun records of video games - there is no sense in holding records of dressed-up calculators, math books, or other things we can't qualify as video game records.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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MESHUGGAH wrote:
Didn't read the posts.
<snip>
edit: forgot to write it, I'm against this rejection because it makes no sense.
Of course it makes no sense if you decide to ignore the reasoning and ask questions that already are answered many times within said posts.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Warp wrote:
In many games you need to solve puzzles (such as rearranging pieces to fulfill certain rules) in order to advance. This is allowed. Why is having to do some arithmetic to advance the game an exception to this? It makes no sense to me.
There is a huge difference between solving a puzzle and being required to do math calculations. The latter requires much more concentration and much more learning.
The problem isn't so much with the amount of concentration or effort required, but that you work directly on a school subject, and it's designed to have you learn said school subject. At that point, you're not doing a recreational activity (as puzzle solving, and games in general are), but you're doing effectively dressed up homework. It's not really a game at that point, it's a tool.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Bobo the King wrote:
I anticipate what the answer will be, but what about RNG differences? Timer-based RNGs can and will be different across the three (or four?) platforms and there may be states that are only accessible on certain platforms.
I see no sufficient reason to deviate from the rules I outlined in this case.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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The problem isn't that it's extra thinking, the problem is that it requires you to exercise in school subjects (arithmetics in this case) as a primary gameplay element, and the game is clearly and explicitly designed for that purpose. That is what defines an educational game.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Fortranm wrote:
Mothrayas wrote:
• If the game has full-color graphics for Game Boy Color, Game Boy Color mode should be used. If the Super Game Boy mode also unlocks notable exclusive gameplay features, then SGB mode may also be accepted for a movie that makes use of said exclusive features.
Does it mean using SGB mode for a GBC game is not allowed/recommended when the SGB mode does not provide extra features?
Yes. If there is no reason to use SGB for a GBC game, don't use SGB.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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I am minimally convinced by any argument that supports publishing this because it is not the actual worst game that could ever be published. That's damning with the faintest of praise, and only reaffirms to me why we need rules against publishing movies of that sort.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Warp wrote:
Mothrayas wrote:
Any submission that aims to improve upon and obsolete an existing publication record must come with an actual improvement of the run. It makes no sense to obsolete a movie when its time record is not beaten, only tied.
That seems contradictory to the Vault rules, which state:
Vault Rules wrote:
Opportunities to entertain the audience where it does not affect time is not a requirement. However, it is encouraged and can be used as a tie-breaker for two equally fast movies.
That rule states it is a tie-breaker, i.e. it can be a deciding factor given two equal options, such as having two submissions and having to choose which one to publish. But for a new submission to obsolete a published movie, it has to be a straight up improvement, per the movie rules on obsoleting a published movie.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Game Boy series: Use the best mode
Some Game Boy games work in multiple modes:
GB ― monochrome (the original Game Boy type);
SGB ― Super Game Boy (the GB game plugged into SNES, has a graphical border and some colours);
GBC ― Game Boy Color.
Because the game can emulate differently depending on the mode, the one you choose is saved in the movie file. This can be difficult to change later, so you should always start recording in the best mode supported by the game.
If the game supports GBC capabilities, play it in GBC mode.
If the game does not support GBC, but does support SGB and is enhanced by it (with sound enhancements, screen palettes, or similar), play it in SGB mode.
Only play the game in monochrome GB mode if the game does not support GBC, and does not support SGB or is not notably enhanced by it.
It is worth mentioning that there is at least one GBC game, Shantae, that recognizes whether it is running on a GBA, and utilizes GBA's hardware features if available. Utilizing this feature is currently only available with recent revisions of lsnes and Bizhawk, and thus does not work at all with VBA-RR.
The default options that appear when starting a recording should reflect the best choices for the currently running game, so think twice before changing them.
Should be noted that these rules are pretty outdated, and only consider VBA-rr - I've started drafting replacement rules for this to account for the newer situation in emulator choice and emulation state of the systems in question. See here: Thread #19752: Rule update proposals for Game Boy modes
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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EZGames69 wrote:
I'm guessing sound difference isnt considered either. some GB games have the ability to use the SNES soundchip.
This is covered with the mentions of SGB enhancements/exclusive features. SNES sound chip use is considered an SGB enhancement like borders, palettes, etc.
Nach wrote:
Also some CGB games have extra features in AGB mode. IIRC, the later CGB Zelda games have extra stuff too.
Good point, I'll add a bullet point for that too. (Shantae is the only other example I can think of offhand, but it's notable nonetheless).
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Nach wrote:
I dislike how the end is phrased. Actual game play time needs to be shorter to obsolete, not just total run time which discards timing differences.
Fair point, I'll update the wording accordingly.
Nach wrote:
Also uniqueness is each can turn what was thought of as the same category into two categories.
This is covered with the statement that only the same categories of a game/run can compare in regards to obsoletion. If SGB enables different objectives or goals, that makes going for those a new category.
Nach wrote:
Almost agree.
Some SGB+CGB games can have unique features in one that are missing in the other. Both should be acceptable.
Fair. Can you give any instances of this scenario in particular?
Nach wrote:
If we have alternatives that are deemed viable enough for regular users to get SGB mode with the borders, colors, sounds, SNES add-ons, multitap, and the other SGB extras, I'm fine with this.
Newer versions of lsnes and BizHawk feature SGB emulation with at least the most common features emulated to my knowledge. I don't know about their status on all the side features, though. But at least, it actually emulates the SGB BIOS and hardware - a vast improvement over VBA-rr's SGB mode, which is purely an emulation hack and nothing at all like how actual SGB hardware behaves.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
