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Crap, the link I needed is dead. I'd have to build mame from source. This won't be soon at all :(
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Impressive job with console verification of the glitch! I'll see what SRAM might mean in this case.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I guess you're using MAME? Its savestates are non-deterministic, they change the amount of cycles left to be executed basically every time you load them. A certain value doesn't get updated. So if there's some randomness to what you grab, it gets messed up on such state reloads. I had a patch that fixed this, and you could probably try a build with it, but getting around to making it is problematic for me atm. There's a place where interim MAME builds are hosted, if you're willing to look for a commit where this patch is present (if got reverted eventually), I'll give you the clues.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I'll just keep bugging Nach until the movie is there. This submission served its goal of defining the policy, so it doesn't really matter what happens to it. It's nicer when the author cancels, that way we don't need to reject it making it look like something bad (to some) :D
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I already explained that plagiarism wouldn't be the reason to reject it.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I'm only aware of such examples when it was more entertaining, and I linked to them. Cases when neither gameplay optimality nor entertainment were improved, I can't recall. I hope at least what the rules say about this is clear now.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Update upon recent IRC talk: Nach's stance is that obsoletions must contain actual gameplay improvements, so resync submissions shouldn't be accepted. But he prefers another way of recognizing efforts like this: adding an updated movie to the publication. That way, the current publication persists as perfectly valid (because not syncing on console doesn't inherently mean the movie is invalid, and console sync has never been a requirement), and the publication also persists with all its content. And at the same time, the resynced movie gets the proper place right in the publication module, duly supported by the site as an update of (still) the same movie. This option doesn't seem to have any downsides, and in future, it wouldn't even need new submissions. But actual regulations will be decided later, when Nach is around next time.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Oh man, they weren't even planning to make things bearable for us :D They endorse this feature on the very damn box cover!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Creative Commons Attribution 2.0 only talks about what you can do with a work published under its terms. Of course you can take someone's submission, tweak it as you like, and even submit here. This is perfectly fine according to the license we use. Accusing the site in not abiding by it, despite of explicitly using it for all our contributions, is a very bold move that has to be backed up, otherwise one is going to lose a bit of respect. So please quote which parts of Creative Commons Attribution 2.0 we violate please. As far as plagiarism goes, it is covered by our existing rules:
MovieRules wrote:
Do not claim authorship for something you haven't made Taking another user's movie and submitting it under your name is strictly forbidden. Such offense is potential grounds for a ban. This doesn't apply to situations where a similar or identical solution is discovered and implemented independently.
This is exactly what Warp quotes as a definition of plagiarism, and it is indeed not allowed. However, I should clarify, that plagiarism wouldn't be a reason to reject his theoretical movie. Once such a submission is made, it's trivial to properly credit the actual author, and I don't have doubts Warp wold do that according to our license. The actual reason to reject such a movie is two-fold. The first part was addressed by Moth. The second part doesn't seem to be covered in the Movie Rules. The thing is, it would have the same gameplay length as the old movie, but even then obsoletions can happen. For Moons, we can accept an improvement that has the same input length as the old movie, or beats the game within the same time, if it's significantly more entertaining. This would have happened to the latest warpless SMB run if it had no time-wise improvements to MrWint's movie. There was also an accepted submission or Magician Lord that had the same gameplay overall and only tweaked the ending a bit. It was accepted because it was significantly more entertaining, despite of having no gameplay improvements. In cases when there's no time-wise improvement, nor entertainment improvements, just cosmetic changes that don't actually make the run more entertaining (the contrary in fact), the movie gets rejected.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Since this is a complicated movie (due to the nature of the game, and its length), could you briefly talk about differences and improvements compared to 567M? If they are already mentioned somewhere, just link or quote. It'd help with the future decision immensely, whoever will be making it.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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The author's insight is always appreciated! It looks like your branch is the same is that of [567] SNES EarthBound "in bounds" by Halamantariel & Nitrodon in 3:26:09.18, is that correct? Here's what adelikat said when he decided that movie should be obsoleted:
#2200: pirohiko's SNES EarthBound in 1:10:00.95 wrote:
Changing the verdict to having it obsolete the published movie. This was brought on by discussion in the forum topic as well the discussion regarding Chrono Trigger. Obsoleting the published movie keeps are options open for a future movie. We have the option of deciding to have a no glitch any%, 100%, an "all aspects" type category, or none at all.
The obsoleted movie had quite decent rating, so maybe it should have been unobsoleted years ago when we were doing unobsoletions, especially given that pirohiko's movie uses a major skip glitch not used (nor known?) in 567M. If this run is accepted, and follows the same rules as the latter, the obsoletion chain will be changed. But I have no idea about what this game is, so it won't be my decision :D
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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"Glitchless" can be called a moot definition at TASVideos. There was a similar submission using the same branch recently, and here's why its branch was changed: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=467080#467080
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Warp wrote:
Memory wrote:
That would be plagiarism so yes it would.
Creative Commons Attribution 2.0 wrote:
You are free to: Adapt — remix, transform, and build upon the material for any purpose, even commercially. Under the following terms: Attribution — You must give appropriate credit, provide a link to the license, and indicate if changes were made. The licensor cannot revoke these freedoms as long as you follow the license terms.
Which part of Creative Commons Attribution 2.0 is talking about plagiarism and rejections? Because I can't find how it regulates any of that, nor can I see the relevance.
Warp wrote:
Is it too much to ask to abide by your own rules and licenses? You cannot publish something under a certain usage license and then arbitrarily revoke people's rights provided by that license. (Well, I suppose technically speaking you can. Nobody is stopping you. But for consistency and fairness you shouldn't. If you promise something, and use a legal license to give people some rights, you should stand behind your words. If different rules are being imposed than granted by that license, use a different license. (And I'm using the plural "you" here, for the record.))
Which part of whose actions appears as not abiding by our own rules and licenses to you?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Double-click with left mouse button. Or right-click and pick Show Menu, where you pick View - Switch to fullscreen.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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23:30 <ThunderAxe31> I guess Monster Rencher looks at some random data in order to determine the monster to get from the CDs 23:30 <Mothrayas> anyway yeah, game complexity wise speccy definitely is a few steps above a2600 23:31 <Mothrayas> would say it's pretty comparable to c64 23:31 <feos> Moth: that's because it is a computer! A PROOF THAT CONSOLES SUCK 23:31 <Mothrayas> computars da bezz 23:32 <feos> консолебляди соснули 23:32 <ThunderAxe31> feos: I agree 23:32 <Mothrayas> I said computarz, not communism /s 23:33 <TASVideoAgent> New reply by DrD2k9 (SNES: Wing Commander): http://tasvideos.org/forum/p/472826#472826 [a:1] 23:34 <EZGames69> Communism master race 23:36 <EZGames69> Please don’t take that out of context 23:36 <ThunderAxe31> memorable irc quotes in 3... 2... 1... 23:38 <TASVideoAgent> New reply by feos (OT: Memorable IRC Quotes.): http://tasvideos.org/forum/p/472827#472827 [a:1] 23:38 <FireFly> haha 23:39 <EZGames69> At least you didn’t take it out of context 23:39 <feos> I did! 23:39 <TASVideoAgent> Post edited by feos (OT: Memorable IRC Quotes.): http://tasvideos.org/forum/p/472827#472827 [a:1] 23:39 <EZGames69> This is getting to meta 23:39 <feos> ye 23:40 <EZGames69> So you took out the context of why I said not to take out the context of me saying communism is the master race instead of taking that comment out of context
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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This game series are silly. Here's what it allows, among all else:
Wikia wrote:
To obtain a Daina in Monster Rancher 2, use either the CD Jumpstart Preschool (PC) or Metallica - S&M (Disc 1). To obtain a Daina in Monster Rancher 4, use the DVDs The Godfather DVD Collection: The Godfather Pt. 1, Saber Marionette J to X Program 6, or Teen Titans: The Complete First Season (Disc 1). To obtain a Daina in Monster Rancher EVO, use the DVD Please Don't Eat My Mother.
We obviously can't accept any movie that uses a disk the author just recorded in the kitchen, or an album of a music artist, or a bad dump of PSX GTA2. If the game explicitly asks to use a specific disk that is relevant, it may be considered. We'll see.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I liked it. Was a bit boring in the middle where you just basically go back and forth, but all the rest was really cool. Voted Yes.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I was also waiting for this ever since I had to reject Dimon12321's submission. Will watch/vote/post later.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Memory wrote:
Bizhawk has a built in avi dumping function, you don't need to use an external recording program like OBS unless you really want the frame count and inputs in the encode.
Not even then is OBS needed. Bizhawk has a function to capture on-screen-display (OSD) into AVI.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Works for me. Try bizhawk 1.13.1 or earlier.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Ух какой список! В этом разделе ответить могу только я, но мне крайне некогда пока что. Лучше спрашивай по одному вопросу за раз здесь: irc://irc.freenode.net/bizhawk Разраб ядра спектрума - Asnivor, он поможет по части вопросов.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Oh btw, I tried to watch it. The game's mood is so depressive that the movie is very hard to watch without fast-forwarding. And every time you skip ahead, you see and hear the same everything, with just a bit different level layout. Voting No.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Just to note, Moth has an important say here as the original judge in the similar case (and from the perspective of a former Senior Judge): http://tasvideos.org/3989S.html adelikat also pointed out on IRC that in fact, if a TAS has been successfully replayed on console, it fulfills one of the fundamental goals of tasvideos!
WelcomeToTASVideos wrote:
Using these tools, we overcome human limitations to complete games with extremely high precision, entertaining our viewers as our players tear through games at seemingly impossible speeds. The end result of this process is simply a series of key-presses which may be performed on the original hardware.
Wiki: ConsoleVerifiedMovies wrote:
Since they started, tool assisted speedruns were designed to make it theoretically possible, given super-human abilities, to recreate them on an actual console. Using special hardware, several movies have been shown with video evidence to play correctly on the console, and are below. Getting these videos to play on the console is a testament to how accurate the emulators used on this site are and that all tricks and glitches depicted are really possible in the actual games.
This is what has improved about this movie, and the author is the same, and it still syncs on a more accurate emulator too. Since my previous post consists of just cons, all we see after it may be just pros. If we allow resyncs in such scenarios, even if no console verification was done, then making sure the emu is indeed more accurate now is the only thing we'd ask from judges. Of course not always directly! But in any case, we'll have to define on what basis it should be done.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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So apparently there's not much discussion going on surrounding this movie and the policy it might affect. So I'll just summarize my thoughts and see if there is disagreement. I'll also use this post to gather opinions of people I'll be asking. Two fundamental entities tasvideos has always cared about the most are optimality and entertainment Each of them can be measured and compared. We host TAS movies, and these two entities are qualities of a TAS, so by measuring and comparing them, we compare TAS movies, that's how we decide on obsoletion. Obsoletion is an important part of hosting TAS movies All the time optimality and entertainment get improved, and we only want to primarily showcase the most optimal and the most entertaining movies. Because this is where we set the quality bar, the level of TAS craft. By keeping it high enough, we encourage people to strive for it and improve the overall quality of our content, as well as their skills. Emulator accuracy is not a quality of a movie You can't TAS emulation accuracy, you can't make it more entertaining, more optimal. You can't objectively measure it either! Because what appears as emulation accuracy might in fact be a coincidence. One could argue that test ROMs are our way to assess accuracy, and we can measure how many tests an emulator passes. While this is true, and eventually the emulator core gets closer to the real CPU in logical behavior, there are a few problems.
    Consoles may be different in hardware behavior Talk about known knowns, known unknowns, and unknown unknowns. Test ROMs that evaluate an aspect of some set of machines, might completely miss this same aspect of another set of machines, for whom it works differently. And there can be infinite amount of such different aspects we don't know about. So it might look as being accurately emulated in general, but it only considers a fraction of all the real machines. There's always human factor to test ROMs They can simply miss an aspect a real machine has, resulting in all sorts of behavior mismatch, discovered or undiscovered. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heisenbug#Related_terms Testing emulation accuracy is actually very hard It takes a person with a real machine, a person writing a test ROM, a person developing and setting up a replay device if we're talking about verifications. It's also barely possible to verify, because all those factors use to only work together for volunteers, and we can't guarantee that some of them isn't lying or mistaken.
Setting up an emulator and running a movie is trivial and reliable Sometimes emulators aren't deterministic enough to work the same for everyone, and some emulators are just hard to set up. But effectively almost anyone can replay a movie without fiddling with any hardware at all, by simply following known software steps. And most importantly, we don't need too much coverage here, unlike with testing emulator accuracy: we only need to confirm sync a few times, and we approve. Accuracy is still an important factor for movies There are cases when a trick used is outright impossible on the real hardware. This matter is a bit of gray area, because there's no strict borderline to what measure of inaccuracy we allow. In general we just require that a bug works on console in principle, instead of completely relying on emulation bugs, being impossible on console in principle. In such cases, it indeed makes perfect sense to obsolete an old movie: if the trick used was found to be impossible without emulation bugs. But if all we're talking about is just a bit more accurate general event, there's no certainty. Imagine there's a list of 10 possible drops from a certain enemy type. The old movie gets drop #1 just because randomness aligned that way. Such a drop is legit and possible. A new movie, done on a more accurate emulator, gets drop #6 there. Also legit and possible. If optimization and entertainment are the same, we wouldn't consider this an improvement But what if it also syncs on console? See above about how coincidental console sync can be. This is an achievement, and it's directly related to TASing. But it's not a TASing achievement per se. Strictly speaking, one can theoretically just resync an old movie without improving anything at all. It'd be more accurate to the console. But it's not a TAS improvement. Considering the above, my opinion is that treating non-TAS improvements as TAS improvements in terms of Movie Rules and judgment is moot. It relies on unreliable things and opens up a can of exception worms, where exceptions are allowed despite of unreliability, while in other unreliable areas they aren't allowed. Solution: we can use Wiki in all sorts of ways to document emulator accuracy and how relevant movies are. Thoughts?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Post subject: Re: Dealing with invalid publications
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SmashManiac wrote:
I might be missing something, but I believe the claimant should always be able to provide all the necessary research in advance so judges don't have to waste the time to do the same except validate it. It would be an immediate rejection otherwise.
Research presented might contain mistakes, missing aspects, or even deliberate lies. But in general, it's more common that not-a-judge makes a mistake a judge won't do. It helps if some info is already provided, but it does nothing critical that'd remove the need to do independent research in order to confirm (or expand, or deny).
SmashManiac wrote:
The latter would only take the same time if all aspects of a TAS would eventually be claimed, which I believe is extremely unlikely.
Say there's an SMB3 run that uses a game end glitch of some very complicated nature, and on top of that, a few other features. There's limited amount of aspects to that run, but there's no limit to which of them one can miss or ignore. If you miss/ignore 1/2 of them, and then notice 1/4 more, there's still 1/4 unnoticed. You can notice it later, never, or right away, depending on how thorough your research is. There's literally no way to reduce the amount of aspects a given run has. So you either uncover and handle them all at once, or one by one, or only a few at first, and others - later, or never. The overall time it takes to examine them is the same, it's just either concatenated or broken down. I'd argue that doing all at once takes a bit less time because you don't have to recall all the info that's known from the past each time you return to some old case.
SmashManiac wrote:
Also, I should note that there's something similar already happening during the obsoletion process where the previous movies have to be re-evaluated when a new TAS is being considered to obsolete another TAS through non-conventional arguments. Obviously the scope is much more limited than my suggestion, but all I'm saying is that's already happening up to some extent.
It's not about scope, it's about actual new submissions at hand. We examine the ones those are trying to obsolete to determine how valid this obsoletion is. If the previous movie was mistakenly accepted, and the new one tries to use this mistake as a precedent, it will be found out (hopefully).
SmashManiac wrote:
All that said, I see your point about rejudging multiple aspects of the same movie through multiple claims being tedious. A possible solution might be that once a warning has been published to ignore other claims for the same movie as they're unnecessary for the sake of integrity. That would limit the scope of the problem further. As for the rest, I think it's an acceptable risk, but that's solely based on my experience so I can't prove it.
The only way it can work without unnecessarily increasing the workload for the judges is consulting about examples in the Ask a judge thread: "If it is true that there are later loops in Joust that have increased difficulty and unique content, then the current movie was mistakenly accepted, is that correct? Because I just found out there are such loops after the movie ends." So the judge would only need to confirm whether the take itself is correct or not, which means, if one has enough evidence, then this can be posted in the recently created thread dedicated to listing such mistaken judgments. This does help with attempting to obsolete such movies. So it's a positive scenario that is also easy to accomplish. Flagging the movies that have been judged wrong, on the other hand, is just not going to work.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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