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Right, and at the same time we can define completionist in any way we need in future, which allows for a wide range of obsoletion options.
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I already elaborated why "100%" is absurd here (and why other "%" options don't make sense either).
Mentioning in the label what it gets will be either inaccurate (omitting some of the goals or presenting them in a strange way) or overloaded (simply telling too much, more than the viewer wants to know).
"Completionist" doesn't actually sound as bad. It doesn't define the entire goal, but the goal isn't strictly defined either! And quite a few people liked it.
"Maximum completion" feels the most accurate, because there's no way to define "full completion" objectively, and it's a Moons-only branch, so we expect that it defines it based on entertainment instead.
My 2 favorite ones are "completionist" and "maximum completion".
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So what version of the label do you personally prefer?
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Warp wrote:
What does bother me is that I get the feeling that the list of requirements is not fixed, set in stone, but up to the author. "As long as it's entertaining."
"Up to the author" in this case meaning that if other runners wanted to obsolete this one, they could decide on a different list of requirements, at their own will, and they might actually have a shot at getting their runs accepted, obsoleting the existing one, in the same branch. Because the list of requirement is not agreed and fixed, but can be pretty much freely decided by each individual runner.
It's that kind of arbitrariness that bothers me slightly. It kind of makes the branch a bit meaningless.
(If I'm incorrect that this kind of run, with a slightly modified list of requirements, would be accepted as obsoleting this, please correct me.)
You are correct, the goal is super arbitrary. But it's a Moons era, and Moons were allowed to have esoteric branches from day 1, as long as they are entertaining. Of course some judgment needs to be made on whether the goal is too arbitrary to be accepted. For that run the decision was that it's not arbitrary enough to be rejected.
Warp wrote:
I don't think it's necessary for the game itself to show percentages for a "%" category to be completely logical and legit. As long as we can establish exactly what constitutes 100%, we can calculate the actual completion % ourselves, even if the game itself doesn't. (If an exact 100% definition cannot be made, then you may have a point.)
It's exactly what I mean:
"max%" doesn't work, because there's no percentage in this game in any form
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Nach wrote:
feos wrote:
After reading the submission thread I can say that this is the original goal:
Complete as much as possible, as long as it's entertaining.
I'm not sure that's correct either. Some stuff could have been left out and provided more entertainment. It's really arbitrary.
Well, we know that it was the original goal, and it means it was judged by Saturn whether something he does is going to be entertaining to him or not. It doesn't mean that it was all similarly entertaining to others. People just happened to like a lot of the run's content.
Nach wrote:
Everyone can have their own criteria on what full or high means, but the only things we can say about the current one that is unanimously agreed to is that it got one of every piece of equipment, it learned all techniques, and it did a lot of other stuff, but by no means all. This is why I suggested originally we name it something like "all equipment and techniques" because that's the only things that we can honestly and objectively agree to.
"it did a lot of other stuff, but by no means all" - this part was lacking from the originally accepted label. And I don't see any sensible way to add that: it'd be the 3rd part of the label, and it can't even be accurately formulated as a label.
feos wrote:
"maximum completion" is informative, now we know that the goal is maximizing completion. So we just need to mention in the description that the run only aims to complete things that are entertaining to watch. Clear and accurate.
Well, I would say something along the lines of maximum completion, with some notes describing what it did. I wouldn't necessarily say entertaining to watch is the best criteria either, it's really arbitrary.[/quote]
I didn't mean that we need to write down the goal literally as "Complete as much as possible, as long as it's entertaining" in the movie description. Everything that might be useful to know is already written there, I don't see anything confusing.
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[802] SNES Biker Mice from Mars "final round" by Baxter in 05:12.62
Uses a password to skip to the hardest track in the game with full equipment, only beats one track, looks super entertaining, was accepted as a demonstration, doesn't aim to be a speed record or legit any%.
I really don't know how to call this, unless we start using "demonstration" in the branches.
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After reading the submission thread I can say that this is the original goal:
Complete as much as possible, as long as it's entertaining.
It's clearly not vaultable, hence it's clearly not full completion, nor 100% by any objective definition. I see how misleading the "100%" branch label is now.
So, is it "max%", "high%", "maximum completion", or "high completion"?
"high completion" sounds strange, as it's not used for any branches so far, and I'm not even sure it's real English. But it doesn't really tell anything either.
- High? Okay. How high though?
- Nobody knows. Somewhat high.
- Why is it considered Hight enough then?
- Nobody knows.
"maximum completion" is informative, now we know that the goal is maximizing completion. So we just need to mention in the description that the run only aims to complete things that are entertaining to watch. Clear and accurate.
"max%" doesn't work, because there's no percentage in this game in any form.
"high%" doesn't work for the same reason, and also because it's not descriptive.
Memory wrote:
Nach wrote:
feos wrote:
Technically, the only really sensible branch would be namely "Max completion". Because it is really a run aiming for max completion for teh win.
Something along these lines is probably the least arbitrary we're going to get it.
We add a comment in the movie description that it's not actually maximum possible completion, just maximum currently submitted to TASVideos. We obsolete the moment someone submits a decent run with higher completion.
Would a run with less completion but also less arbitrary (and less boring) also obsolete this TAS?
If we get a run that completes a comparable amount of things while being more entertaining, it can obsolete it. Doesn't have to complete the same amount, nor more, nor less. Just comparable. And it must be more entertaining, since it's our end goal here. See how low the rating of that run is now.
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All walkathons need to mention their warp usage, as per recent guidelines addition. Even though warped walkathon can be considered speed-focused, it has an entertainment-focused counterpart now, warpless walkathon. To prevent confusion we label both by their warp usage.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Does the game even have warps?
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Also, there are many Super Mario World movies, including hacks, that lack an appropriate label, but we also have to decide if going for the "warps"-"warpless" naming or "low exits"-"max exits" naming
When we aim for fastest speed while avoiding major skip glitches, we don't care how many exits we end up using, so exit count is irrelevant here. So "warps" SMW (and hacks) should remain "warps". But when the goal is getting all exits, we should use "all exits". And when all can't be used, yet we want maximum, we should use "maximum exits", like in the fixed "small only" branch.
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LOL
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Ah okay. I'll fix it.
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I mean the same actions that you can do on the SELECT screen you can also do on that easter egg screen, and their result is identical. So it is functionally a SELECT screen with some changed graphics.
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I think we should only use "maximum X" when it's actually as much as you can get given the restrictions imposed externally. I'll need to reread the submission thread.
If it's not a result of restrictions, just an arbitrary pile of things one felt like achieving, and that pile is reasonably huge, I suggest enforcing "high X" for such cases. Or some better wording.
Then a run that obtains more, but is equally entertaining, would obsolete it. As well as a run that gets less, but is more entertaining. Because the current movie has quite bad rating.
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Yeah it can be pretified after you make a pull request.
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When a run uses a combination of internal and external goals, we need to find out which of them it prioritizes, and which of them it only happens to have as a result of the primary goal.
If it explicitly and independently prioritizes more than one, and each of them is chosen for the sake of unique entertaining content, each needs to go into the label.
If it aims for fastest speed for the primary goal, and doesn't particularly care which other goals happen to be encountered, such extra goals don't need to be mentioned in the label.
The primary, external, goal in that run is "no powerups", the secondary, internal, goal is "maximum exits". It could get more exits if it didn't ban all permanent powerups (including "growing up"). This boils us down to:
SNES Super Mario World (USA) "no powerups, maximum exits" in 1:18:23.22 by PangaeaPanga
And saying in the description that the run bans permanent powerups that I listed above.
Opinions? Staff and other members agreed that this label is good (at least as good as "small only", but most of us think that it's better: more accurate and still not overblown).
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I have one last question. Would that run be shorter if it used more exits?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Niamek wrote:
Why no just tkeep small only? Same with all the others movies like walkathon.
The details are already in the movie descriptions. Should be enough.
Why revise? Why fix? Why contribute? Why care? Same with everything one would bother doing. Reality is already better than shit. Should be enough.
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So the extra exits are forbidden because of those 2 forbidden techniques? We don't want to list the rules in the labels, only critical differences and unique goals. If there's a cherry-picked set of tricks that are forbidden to make it more entertaining, we could also list them in the movie description (if we haven't already). I'd need to know if those extra exits are sacrificed for speed or for entertainment.
As for reading the discussion, here's the result everyone seems to agree with:
Post #468111
I think it's important to talk to actual people who run this game before putting labels, so please try to help us keep it accurate and sane while improving the system.
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BrunoVisnadi wrote:
4 more exits are obviously possible (the switch palaces) and they are forbidden in this category.
Why? Can you tell the rules and goals so we understand better what to put in the label?
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I've had a talk with Really_Tall (lasting for 2+ hours) about SM64DS. Turns out, the same main techniques that are used in the current TAS branch to cut down the time by more than 50% are also used in RTA 100% run. They just don't save so much time there, because all stars need to be collected.
https://www.speedrun.com/sm64ds
"Any%" there is what our current TAS aims for.
"8 Star" is what the first TAS did. Obsoleted. by the above
"50 Star" is an arbitrary set of restrictions that only allows some major skip glitches. Probably not even publishable here.
"80 Star" bans all major skip glitches. Also called "intended any%", feels like our trunk/blanck branch on the first glance. Publishable.
"150 Star" allows them again, and also requires all stars. Publishable.
And a few more arbitrary branches.
So if someone makes TASes of other branches, we're only likely to accept 80 stars and 150 stars alongside the current branch.
Overworld/Castle skips are the thing that makes any% so different and short. They are activated by some OoB techniques, which are in turn used in all the less glitched runs as well, just not to that extent. The only branch that completely bans this is 80 stars. Not even 100% run does (I repeat that because it's very notable imo).
What I'm getting at, Castle skips are the same thing as zips in Sonic, BLJ in sm64. Using them is common. Avoiding them is not. So we will label an 80 star run something like "no Castle skips" and remain accurate, as well as correct judging by our system.
Bottomline: The currently published runs of SM64DS are trunk and don't need label.
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Click on frame column while holding Shift to select a range of frames.
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Where can I read which pokemon games are considered the same game by tasvideos standards?
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