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I personally found it super funny. If I happen to be judging this run, I'll ask other staff as well.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Zeupar wrote:
I am willing to do so myself if there are no objections.
I agree, just post here what you've changed so we could discuss when needed.
Zeupar wrote:
I personally like the current approach of listing the individual glitches, since it gives more information.
Would you like listing 4 at once? 5?
My take is that we either haven't fully figured out what such glitches do (which would let us use common labels on them), or we're not ready for potential mess. Or both.
Yesterday I also rewrote the whole Structure chapter of Publisher Guidelines, summarizing what we've discussed here lately:
http://tasvideos.org/PublisherGuidelines.html#Structure
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Thanks for motivating me :D
I made my own video.
You can safely remove yours now.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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That one is too similar to our "already standard" glitch abuse:
http://tasvideos.org/MovieClassGuidelines.html#HeavyGlitchAbuse
Major skip glitch movie class at least tells what's special about it:
http://tasvideos.org/MovieClassGuidelines.html#MajorSkipGlitch
So while the latter is a subset of the former technically, their difference can at least be comprehended from descriptions of those classes. And we use specific labels for the latter too. So they won't be confused for the former. With "glitch abuse" branch they will. It also doesn't tell that several independent glitches are used at once (which is why I have this question).
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Can you post a video so we get at least some feedback? If not, I'll encode it later.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Nach wrote:
I don't have good answers for you at the moment.
We probably won't be accepting every variation. We should work with the experts of the appropriate games to figure out which branches we're likely to accept and boil them down to clear names for the casual players.
I don't mean that they can co-exist, we can only have one major skip branch published. It just can happen to use several glitches that are all major and all save tons of time. But they can all be special and weird, preventing uniting them under one descriptive label. We just can't infinitely stack them in the label. So we need a way to group in one label several independent major skip glitches that we can't otherwise group under existing terms.
If Crash Bandicoot: Warped (JPN) "item glitch, gate clip" is beaten by a run that uses a few more unique major skip glitches, that'd be an example of what I'm talking about. Just remember how "glitched" label was able to unite indefinite amount of major skip glitches in itself. We need a new version of it. Something like "various glitches", except that sounds crappy.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Alright. And what about situations when we have a Major skip glitch run that uses several independent major skip glitch techniques? If we put each, it'd be "information overload", because the goal is already to use major skip glitches, which ones it happens to have used isn't important anymore.
The old "glitched" branch label worked for such cases, but it got retired.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Nach wrote:
Other things like "1p" or "2p" probably is important enough to always mention whenever a game supports that kind of thing, unless an ACE run is submitted which beats the game before player selection even begins.
Amount of players in "game end glitch" is just as moot as warp usage. That's how good my examples are: they address a whole bunch of problems at once.
This is what I observe so far.
When a run aims for showcasing internal goals of the game, it needs a label. Regardless of counterpart runs present or absent. Even if it's a combination of independent internal goals, then we make a compound label.
When a run aims for showcasing external goals, such goals also need to go to the label. But only if they're uncommon. Still, regardless of counterparts. And still allowing compound labels, if each goal has unique nature and is explicitly chosen.
When a run uses a combination of internal and external goals, we need to find out which of them it prioritizes, and which of them it only happens to have as a result of the primary goal.
If it explicitly and independently prioritizes more than one, and each of them is chosen for the sake of unique entertaining content, each needs to go into the label.
If it aims for fastest speed for the primary goal, and doesn't particularly care which other goals happen to be faster, such extra goals don't need to be mentioned in the label.
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Nach wrote:
[1868] SNES Super Mario World "no powerups, maximum exits" by PangaeaPanga in 1:18:23.22
Small only doesn't imply much. Is it showing off the fastest way to beat the game only as small? Or does it describe that as many levels as possible is beaten as small, similar to what you said about Walkathon? What its actual objective is appears to be unclear without additional information.
Using the same logic you mentioned about Walkathon, I think it should probably be "small only, 86 exits". If someone manages to make a small only with more than 86 exits, it will be labeled appropriately and obsolete this one.
Yet I still don't know if "small only" minimizes time or maximizes entertainment with its amount of exits used. Does it sacrifice time and add entertainment by using more exists than needed for fastest completion? I deliberately picked this game, because I don't know it at all, even after having read your rejection of Masterjun's "anti-11-exits". So I think we're not done with this particular run.
Nach wrote:
[3640] NES Super Mario Bros. 2 "warps, princess only" by mtvf1 & chatterbox in 08:20.83
Completing the game using the princess character could be done with either warps or without it. We can publish both. The title alone just saying princess does not tell me what to expect from the run, does it aim for fastest completion with princess or to show off as many levels as possible completed using the princess? Therefore this should mention it uses warps in order to clarify the matter.
I feel like I agree, but I can't formulate why.
Nach wrote:
The layperson/newcomer obviously does not understand the differences between the various points in this fine discussion we're having. However, different descriptions will mean something to him, and we should ensure what we write conveys information which will leave the viewer mostly informed of what a run is about without misconceptions.
As staff, I think we need to put ourselves into these people's shoes. Most cases should be clear. For the trickier cases, we need use logic above like you did above for Walkathon and I did for the other cases you pointed out.
I'm basically asking for a guideline suggestion. This is why I need to have a formula that'd help me figure out whether it's moot or not. Most importantly, if I get hit by a truck, how do new staff members that need to handle this labeling know if it's moot or not? What do I say as I record my valediction to them (before I die on that road), teaching them how to resolve this problem?
Nach wrote:
I don't necessarily know that there is a line. With what we laid out above, I think we demonstrated that "princess only", "walking only", or "small only" lacks information as to whether it's fastest with this criteria or as many levels with this criteria, and requires further clarification. Runs of both kinds are likely to exist on the site (even if some are obsoleted).
On the other hand, something like "No spazer, no wave, no mother-brain constant-kill, yes grapling, no out of bounds, no x-ray, save the animals, no SRAM corruption, pacifist" is complete and utter overkill. We want to avoid these. We also don't want to mention things that should be implied unless explicitly stated otherwise. For this kind of thing, we need to come up with should encompassing names that perhaps don't tell you the full details about the run, but at least point out what the key criteria for the run are.
Same rant about the lack of guideline example. If I can't teach others how to handle something, it means I don't know that myself. Which in turn means I have to run to authorities and ask for their help for each and every case when I don't have exhaustive info about the game.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
2) More clarity is always preferable. (But avoid information overload, because that obfuscates)
I need to understand this borderline as well.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I don't know that that's necessary. Doesn't game end glitch imply warps?
It implies neither warps nor warpless. It just uses the approach to warping that's faster. If some day we discover than you can trigger game end glitch right after the warp point in level 1, "game end glitch" branch will become warpless.
The opposite happened with SMB "walkathon": the longer warpless movie obsoleted the shorter warped run because it was more entertaining. But the "walkathon" branch implies neither.
Nach wrote:
feos wrote:
"game end glitch, warplesss, 2 players"
"game end glitch, warplesss, 1 players"
Are we likely to accept these?
This is an important question. If we stick to the current rules, there's no way such movies would be published alongside each other. Yet there's a chance they obsolete one another in future. So they can co-exist in history, just not among current branches. Should we put 3+ goals into labels?
Nach wrote:
1) I don't believe in polls.
2) If you're going to be making a poll with leading questions and strategic ambiguity in order to highlight your way is best with clever deception, don't expect me to leave you to it.
3) If staff randomly wakes up one day and completely changes their mind on something that was well agreed to, I don't even know what the point is in cleaning this stuff up. That would mean renaming everything every other year.
4) Making more polls when something was already polled and discussed to death and agreed to is basically nullifying what the audience already was polled on. So you get a result with your poll which someone dislikes, hey let's just make another and nullify that new semi-consensus.
Yeah, if people barely care, and if the questions aren't perfect, it won't help us out.
Nach wrote:
However if you do happen to disagree with my criteria, I am calling you out on prioritizing your own opinions, ideals, and fanciful ideas over what is best for our users and staff.
No, my plan here is to perfect the system, and to dig into our problems as deep as needed. I want it to be resolved in a reasonable and elegant way.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Niamek wrote:
Do you really need to know that much info?
I still stand by my opinion that some aren't that needed. The warpless walkathon could be only called walkathon. As a viewer, I wouldn't care if the run is warpless or not. I would care if it's a walkathon.
Same goes with 96 exits. I wouldn't care as a viewer if a movie uses warps. I would care if it does 96 exits.
*If* ther eis 2 movies that does 96 exits, or a walkathon (of the same game) now you're talking. But now there is only one.
Concerning the walkathon: consider this scenario:
Run A does a highscore that was thought to be the best that doesN't use any warps.
Then Run B obsoletes run A by beating the score AND using a warp because of new tricks or something.
Do you need to put "warp" in the run B label or you just keep "High score"? I say no. You only need to lknow that's a high score. Not High score AND warps.
I see something good in this notion as well. I feel like I will need a poll. Nach, please don't debunk it by several anti-polls when I make it. There's no staff agreement anymore, so I want users to say.
"Walkathon" goal doesn't care if it will have to use or skip warps.
"Game end glitch" goal doesn't care about this.
"Max coins" doesn't care.
"All items" doesn't care.
They only care about reaching their main goal ASAP, regardless of using or avoiding warps, or amount of players involved.
I would argue that warps are not even part of the goal for them, just a side effect. In which case, it makes sense to only address warp usage in movie classes.
For Battletoads "1p warps", "1p warpless", "2p warps" and "2p warpless" both conditions are primary and equally important. Both conditions are essential parts of the goal. You can not do a ran that you want to explicitly be "2 players" with just 1 player all along. For a "walkathon" run, you can do either of those and be fine. And only have to put extra labels if both walkathons are currently published. Because then highlighting warp usage or player count is completely unavoidable.
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Alright, then I accidentally discovered a decent dividing factor back then, which is "something the game suggests as an option".
But still, what if more than 2 sub-labels start stacking up? I would hate to see this:
NES Battletoads (USA) "game end glitch, waps, 2 players"
With the current approach, unless we completely change the requirements of accepting new Moons branches, there's no way to have all versions of game end glitch simultaneously published:
"game end glitch, warps, 2 players"
"game end glitch, warplesss, 2 players"
"game end glitch, warps, 1 player"
"game end glitch, warplesss, 1 players"
So in quite a few cases, we won't end up having to rename all the old branches retroactively.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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The rule does imply that warped and warpless are common. But not "so common that the opposite is an exception", not "overwhelmingly common". Just standard, average.
Back in 2014 I had a talk with adelikat, after the new branching rules, where he wanted to prevent labeling nearly all of our existing runs that only have 1 branch (in all cases where a certain in-game option is used)). I came up with a reasonable approach to that. The full text of the rule is quite similar to what we had in judge guidelines initially.
Original suggestion:
Post #373887
Old version everyone liked:
JudgeGuidelines&rev=57 wrote:
When figuring out the needed label, one should assess the statistics and answer the question: "Is the applied approach so common that the opposite is an exception?"
- If it is that common, we don't label runs that do it the common way, and label runs that don't, if there are counterpart runs of the same game.
- If it's not that common, we label each approach, if there are counterpart runs of the same game.
To determine the branch label, we need to answer this question:
Is the condition for this run common enough for this game that the opposite is an exception?
- If the condition is overwhelmingly common, we won't label runs that stick to the common way of play, and instead label runs that are unusual. Most of the time such a condition is external.
- If the condition is not overwhelmingly common, we label each unique approach, if there are counterpart runs of the same game. Most of the time such a condition is internal.
For goals that are generally uncommon and cannot be a trunk (pacifist, playaround, various kinds of major skip glitches, newgame+, etc) it is preferred to put a label even if there are no counterpart runs. This works the same as with branches of a single game, just on a larger scale, and has the same purpose: highlighting unique goal types.
Goals that are common (specific player count, character choice, route through the map) don't have to be labeled if there are no counterpart runs.
Why is it all so? Because if we decide that we need to label "warps", "warpless", "1 player", "2 players", and similar in all cases when they are true, we will quickly drown in trains of labels for each run:
NES Super Mario Bros. 3 (USA PRG1) "arbitrary code execution, warps"
NES Super Mario Bros. 3 (USA PRG0) "warpless"
NES Super Mario Bros. 3 (USA PRG0) "warps"
NES Super Mario Bros. 3 (USA PRG0) "100%, warpless"
NES Super Mario Bros. 3 (USA PRG0) "game end glitch, warps"
SNES Super Mario World (USA) "96 exits, warps" (some are used, AFAIK)
SNES Super Mario World (USA) "game end glitch, warpless" (lol)
SNES Super Mario World (USA) "small only, warps"SNES Super Mario World (USA) "arbitrary code execution, warpless"
SNES Super Mario World (USA) "warps"
I personally don't find this too elegant. Sure, this situation is exceptional, and maybe some people agree that using such labels regardless of how huge they will get is fine, when we only have a few exceptional "trees". But I believe the system should work regardless of our current scale, even in 10 years if we have several times more branches for most games. I think it's imperfect to depend on rarity of bizarre situations: we need to know exactly how to deal with them.
Another problem is that the game might have several factors that are all standard and would need such a label, which results in 3+ entries in labels. Finally, where do we draw the line between "unique" (pacifist) and "just common" (warps)?
However, if it's not what you're suggestion, then we need to clarify what we disagree about here.
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Really_Tall wrote:
Are these all going to be changed then?
Yes.
Really_Tall wrote:
I think trying to label uncommon major skips explicitly rather than using a generic "major skip glitch" label (akin to the current "game end glitch", "warp glitch", etc, labels) is detrimental to the site. When a run uses several different major skips this will get out of hand and lead to a complete lack of clarity. For example, if [3497] PSX Crash Bandicoot: Warped "item glitch, gate clip" by pirohiko in 05:40.77 was obsoleted using a new major glitch, maybe even twice, would it end up with four labels? Even the current name seems almost as bad as the example quoted in the first post.
You are correct, and I always preferred the old way to simply label them "glitched" and be fine. But 40% of the community hated that, saying it's meaningful and non-descriptive. Another 40% liked it that way. So we had to use the approach that pleases both camps and neither at the same time.
Really_Tall wrote:
To summarise, I think this push to improve the branch names will have the opposite effect when applied to uncommon major skip glitches, so I propose a generic "major skip glitch" label to alleviate this issue. I do appreciate the effort to fix branch names, but creating unique names for major skip glitches in hundreds of different games seems like the wrong way to go about it.
P.S. This "major skip glitch" label could be an optional choice depending on author/staff preference, or only used if there would be 2+ or 3+ glitches in the label. It could also replace some of the common major skip labels currently used: the details aren't final. But I think for games where it is difficult and annoying to accurately reflect the contents of a major skip glitch run by putting specific skip names in the label, such as SM64DS, the option of a generic name would be beneficial, so I hope this suggestion is considered.
Ideally, we'd just find what type of major skip glitch is used. For example if something lets you skip 60% of the movie by teleporting to the wrong location, it's clearly a "warp glitch". And we don't care how this teleporting looks, it just has to happen in some way.
It gets complicated if there are several unrelated glitches that only cut down the time so much if used together. I think there's no solution to that ATM, and Crash Warped is an example when we only have 2 such glitches, yet there can be more in future, what do we do then?
Can you tell briefly what each major skip glitch used in those sm64ds runs does gameplay-wise, in an abstract way? For example "glitch X lets you clip into a wall", "glitch Y lets you increase your speed tenfold", etc.
I don't think we can return to "glitched" or "well, just SOME major skip glitches, I dunno". Maybe there's a way. But I'd need some insight on what the existing MSGs do.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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jlun2 wrote:
Sorry, but how do I simply splice AVI files generated by BizHawk together? Movie Maker is gone, and the script in the comments gives the following:
https://i.imgur.com/iNHYSwq.png
Is there any way to simply splice avi files together?
List all the files and their resolutions.
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Major skip glitch is viewed on the scale of entire game base, because it's virtually possible in any game, it's just a matter of time and effort invested. And for now it's a really rare feature: 181 runs against total publication count of 3642.
Something must be considered possible unless we are sure it is not. Statistics can be assessed on two levels (including obsoleted movies):
- Against the range of the runs this particular condition is applicable to (Ultraspindash is only applicable to a few Sonic games)
- Against the range of runs the type of that condition is applicable to (Pacifist completion is possible in a large variety of different games)
So even if all branches for some game use it, it's still considered a rare external condition overall. Hence we label all runs that use it.
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LOL
I don't even mind having both goals combined like that :D
Loved the second part, Yes vote.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Also, there are many Super Mario World movies, including hacks, that lack an appropriate label, but we also have to decide if going for the "warps"-"warpless" naming or "low exits"-"max exits" naming
By our IRC discussion, the goal of SMW "warps" doesn't care how many or few exists are used, it just aims to beat the game ASAP without major skip glitches. And "96 exits" isn't strictly warpless either (hence no Forgoes warps class).
I think it's the best to rely on our reasoning from 2014 that led to marking it "warps" and leaving "96 exits" intact, even though I don't remember the reasons anymore. Not as simple as strict antonyms, but in this case it seems they won't increase sensibility, but will instead reduce it.
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Niamek wrote:
My bad for the 100%. Is "gotcha catch em all" also 100%?
Niamek wrote:
Playaround shouldn't get the demo tag as well.
I agree.
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Updating obsolete movies on TVC
If you're publishing a movie that obsoletes some other, find the obsoleted movie's ID on Wiki: SystemTVCControl and hit Update on it. If you don't have the privs for that, ask a publisher (or someone else who has the tvc_access privilege).
Not needed anymore.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
