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HappyLee wrote:
Technically I think if someone improves the code further, it can make Mario move faster and further reduce lags and waiting time. Will that obsolete this run?
Sounds possible, though such a hack would raise the same questions as this one - about accessibility and preservation.
Fortranm wrote:
I wonder how a TAS of that bootleg hack from that multicart whose rom can be relatively easily found that I posted earlier would look like. If the result is somewhat similar [...]
I don't see any similarities.
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I was surprised by how obscure this hack is. Google only finds tasvideos and some video hosting sites, they all link directly to the IPS file, acmlm's site doesn't have an index page since 2009, speedrun.com or any other communities don't know about this hack.
It's probably obvious why nobody is interested in this hack outsite TASing, because it's mostly unplayable in real time, unless you've practiced a lot. But doesn't that make it even more worthy of a TAS? I think this hack is hilarious and it does provide some new challenges in the SMB1 universe.
But we have this rule and I don't know what to do:
ROM hacks must not be overly obscure. If a hack is known to GoodTools, ROMhacking.net, SMW Central, or some other well-known database, that usually means its quality is decent and it won't be completely lost in the future.
There must be a publicly and readily available download link to the hack's patch file on the web. It should be easily found through Google. Having to join an online community (for example on Discord) to get the file is not allowed.
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I beat you by 29 frames in the first level by using a strategyhttps://tasvideos.org/UserFiles/Info/638082759640614536
I clear out the lower ones because they are closer, so I can shoot again sooner, and while I'm doing that, the top ones shift downwards closer to me. Can probably be improved further by also using planning.
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I don't get how to load this game in bsnes. I have it selected in core prefs but reloading the rom makes it stay on gambatte. My rom matches that in the movie header.
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Wouldn't that result in upscaling by the factor of 4, as opposed to adding 0-3 pixels so it becomes the nearest multiple of 4?
Here's how I do it in avisynth:
Language: avs
# rounds an integer up or down to the nearest multiple of mod
function ForceModulo(
\ int number,
\ int mod,
\ bool up
\){
return (up \
? (int(number + mod - 1) / mod) * mod \
: int(number / mod) * mod)
}
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Just remembered another thing: x264 wants dimensions to be multiples of 4.
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Are the level layouts in Novice different from those in Tower? I couldn't find any info about it.
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At the first glance it looks like scaling width to be 4/3 of itself.
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Thanks!
What would be the -filter_complex for cases when you need to upscale 2x with neighbor and then lanczos width to be 4/3 of height?
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Alright here's the edit:
https://tasvideos.org/Wiki/PageHistory?path=MovieRules&fromRevision=40&toRevision=41
I removed the triviality clause, as well as the mentions of Standard ineligible games, because the definition should be enough to resolve their acceptance, and if it's not enough we'll just have a discussion.
Timed games should also be fine I guess, because there's still stuff to optimize, like lag or cutscenes, and possibly movie end point too. Though yeah TASing them for maximum score or something like that makes more sense IMO. Which doesn't mean anything else should be banned.
Free form creativity games that don't have an in-game goal at all, and no way to define completion, can still be accepted to Alternative if the run is entertaining.
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TheAmazingFursona wrote:
Well, i thought modifying game files is forbidden by movie rules, whatever.
It is allowed if it's the only way to make it TASable:
Movie Rules wrote:
Gameplay must be accurate to hardware
Outside modification of a game or a system BIOS is not allowed. If modification is the only way of being able to TAS your game, ask a Judge if it can be allowed. In such cases, a full set of reproduction steps for the modification must be provided with the submission.
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Would it be accurate to say that this run only avoids all enemy collision glitches, and all other glitches are used (like BG collisions)?
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Automanager wrote:
Since pause spamming is pretty much equal to invincibility, it might take off around two minutes from the run. You could ignore time restrictions of cycles or even quickly skip a few levels that have walls made of enemies.
Though, pausing at maximum speed causes the screen to flash rapidly between brighter/darker screens, so I'm not sure if anybody would enjoy watching a run of this which spams pausing whenever useful. The noise made by pause spamming sounds terrible when unmuted.
We use to publish those branches separately, to showcase both pure speed and actual gameplay.
How much time would enemy clipping save?
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Thanks for the details! BTW you can put them into submission description, which is how it's usually done (or we could do it for you if you don't want to bother with wiki syntax).
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ThunderAxe31 wrote:
First of all, this giving a general definition of what's a game, seems unnecessarily complex to me. But more importantly, it broadens the range of accepted games too much.
I'm trying to understand these 2 thoughts and to me it feels like they contradict each other.
If we're allowing more things, then we're loosening the rules. If we're loosening the rules, we're reducing the limitations. And if we're reducing the limitations, we get simpler solutions. But somehow this makes things more complex. I don't get it.
I see this as making things simpler, because we're trying to understand deeper reasons behind our policies, and while still meeting our high level priorities, we're also trying to reduce the tension that comes from being unexplainably strict. If we feel we're being reasonably strict, but our contributors can't explain to themselves how it makes things better for them, our strictness is not all that reasonable in the end.
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Not that I'm personally against it, but I think we should do it gradually, in order to avoid unexpected situations that we may not want to get.
This is how we've been working for all the prior years. If we want to learn new things, we have to expand our comfort zone by stepping out of it. Yes, gradually, but there should be excitement of exploration, and ability to adapt to non-trivial reality on the fly by using our skills. We've spent a lot of years limiting ourselves, fearing to be too quick. But there needs to be balance, and we need to be able to be quick when it can improve things. Only then we'll be able to tell which ratio of methods will be optimal for a given situation. We need to master both extremes to know how to stay in the middle.
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
I think we need to have a clearer vision of what we want to accept and what we don't want to.
Trying to hard to predict the future results in us missing the real point of the current state of things. Past, present, and future, should also be in balance. We can't figure out the future without having exhaustive info about the present, and for that we have to explore the unknown directly, and learn to adopt creatively. I think this is more interesting than the defense mode.
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
For me, the issue is not about what games we want to accept, but about what movies. Because many games may be applicable only for specific goals, like full-completion or maximum score, but not for fastest-completion.
Yes, and the new meta-policy is simply advocating whatever makes sense, in whatever the surrounding circumstances are. We won't be doing things we don't like, automatically. But we need to be open minded to figure out what we like and what our community likes. Speaking of which...
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Also, I think that the community still doesn't want to start accepting completely trivial movies, like Rhythm games, for which there is not even the need for TASing tools in order to produce a perfect movie, and the difference wouldn't be noticeable not only when watching the movie, but not even while making it.
Does the community explain why it's bad to expand the scope of acceptable games? Good games are still not going away.
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
So my conclusion is that a movie should be acceptable if there is a minimum requirement of basic TASing techniques in order to make a movie. This would means that submissions like Duck Hunt and all Bowling games would become acceptable, while a Desert Bus movie would remain unacceptable due to the low effort required for playing it (beside physical stamina, I guess). In any case, I want to make sure that the community is happy with it.
From the previous years, I don't feel this is more simple than what I'm suggesting.
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If it syncs on any build at all (with source code available), and if it's well done, it won't be rejected. A lot has happened recently with our rules:
https://tasvideos.org/MovieRules/History
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The Brookman wrote:
@feos it looked like you your self voted for 'no oob' which was actually shocking but 9 is an awful lot of haters 8)
I haven't voted, I posted both numeric emotes so people have what to click to vote (you can see self indication on both icons).
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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The Brookman wrote:
feos wrote:
Actual reply now. We're not discussing whether we should use an abbreviation or not (guidelines say we shouldn't). We're discussing a less wordy synonym, which "no backwards long jump" doesn't have, but "no out of bounds" does have.
this was already adressed. "in bounds" does not label the absence. regardless of whether it is or is not synonymous.
I spent a lot of words explaining why your argument against it is not applicable. Please quote and disprove it properly.
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So there's a Dolphin build on which that run fully syncs?
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The Brookman wrote:
feos wrote:
see what other people feel about this.
re:
feos wrote:
seems subjective to me
ok, I'm only trolling a little bit and I know what you really mean.
Don't worry I have an actual answer on this one as well. We can rely on statistics regarding objective things, like how many movies feature a given goal, and how many movies avoid it. And we can also rely on statistics regarding subjective things, for example, how many people find a certain label confusing, misleading, annoying, etc, and how many like it. For inherently subjective things we embrace their subjective nature and work with it faithfully. That's how you get a community consensus.
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The Brookman wrote:
and typing out "no backwards long jump" is longer than "no out of bounds" so that argument is dead.
You got me right there. Yet I'd still like to see what other people feel about this.
EDIT:
Actual reply now. We're not discussing whether we should use an abbreviation or not (guidelines say we shouldn't). We're discussing a less wordy synonym, which "no backwards long jump" doesn't have, but "no out of bounds" does have.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Expand acronyms that are not universally recognized. For example, BLJ is not as obvious to our broad audience as HTML and SRAM are.
Unsure.
The Brookman wrote:
this seems needlessly complicated but I've already chosen to die on this hill so I'll proceed as best I can because I fully believe there is a distinction to be made between the terms and if I make the correct points you will change your mind.
I didn't mean this as a confrontation either (see my sig).
The Brookman wrote:
"no out of bounds" is not describing a goal of the movie.
The goal of the movie is 100% completion.
"no out of bounds" is a restriction on the strategies used to reach the goal. This is why it is a relevant disclaimer to the movie while "in bounds" is not.
Full completion is indeed the main goal. But avoiding out-of-bounds movement is also a goal, and it's successfully achieved by carefully avoiding out-of-bounds movement. If there was out-of-bounds movement, this movie would not have been accepted as either "no out of bounds" or "in bounds". Out-of-bounds movement would have disqualified it from both. Do you agree with that?
On the other hand, we will most likely accept a version of full completion that uses out-of-bounds movement to its maximum. And if out-of-bounds movement ends up presented in most branches, then avoiding it will be showcased in the branch label, to feature what is more exclusive. Just like it happens with BLJ in SM64.
The Brookman wrote:
As i said in the previous post, "in bounds" does not at face value preclude the use of out of bounds just as out of bounds does not preclude the use of in bounds.
This may be a highly technical distinction of the language which is being used colloquially but it is true.
Theoretically, if I decided to produce an AC movie that ONLY plays out of bounds, strictly labeling the movie "out of bounds" would not be sufficiently informative.
You would need to label the movie "no in bounds".
That's an interesting perspective. I guess it's the distinction between a technique only featured in just one branch (exceptionally), and a branch where a certain technique is always used (unexceptionally).
But I still don't think what is default and common, and what is an exception, can be switched like this.
We have a certain approach for cases when both options are objectively equal. A great example is choosing between single-player and multi-player mode. Even if the game menu usually puts the cursor on 1P by default, that doesn't mean TASing the 1P mode is so overwhelmingly common that 2P is an exception. Nor does it mean that 1P is clearly implied and can be dropped from the label, while 2P always requires a label.
Same situation is with character choice. There are initially selected characters, but that doesn't automatically mean those characters are optimal, so for maximum clarity we just highlight all the branches that are based on objective in-game options.
When it comes to glitches and self-imposed goals (like pacifist), there's no objective in-game default. So all we have as our reliable statistics is which goal is more popular across other branches of the same game, and which goal is more popular across other games. Pacifist is rare enough that it's worth having an explicit label. Avoiding glitches, in general, is also relatively rare, most of the time people just use them all.
With this statistical notion in mind, let's look at AC. You don't start the game out of bounds, you don't have an explicit in-game option for out of bounds, and IIRC level end triggers are also not out of bounds. You don't even know out of bounds is possible unless you accidentally discover it, or you do intentional research in order to find out. And then after you know about it, you also need to know how to go out of bounds technically (and how to stay there at all times I guess?). So if we take the game in isolation and how gamers usually explore it, out of bounds is an exception, it's rare, and it needs to be intentional to be consistent. This is why people like glitches: it's because they feel unusual and unexpected.
In TASing (and I guess real-time speedrunning), glitches are usual, because otherwise you won't be optimal. But they still don't happen by default automatically. You have to have the skill to pull them off, consistently.
When we talk about a certain technique in speed play, we name it after its presence. Even if that technique is used to fight or disable a certain automatic mechanic (like pausing in Mega Man to make invincibility timers run out while the bullet is still inside the boss).
Similarly, out of bounds is a technique that is sometimes present in a run and sometimes it is absent. And to make it happen you need to put in intention. This is why I believe that your example does not disprove my points.
The Brookman wrote:
In comparison, when Zinfidel submits his TAS there are no addendums to the title.
it is just "armored core in xx:xx".
Why not stipulate "aborts missions, goes out of bounds" in this case?
because those aren't restrictions of the movie, they are features of the fact that there are no restrictions.
We've had a whole site controversy about this subject, and the only sensible way to solve it without telling either side to "just deal with it", was relying on objective data and not on subjective feelings.
So how we label the 2 AC runs is going to depend on which techniques are more common across all AC branches. If OOB is only featured in one branch, and most others avoid it, we'll add "out of bounds" to it. If most branches use OOB, then we handle it like zips in Sonic and BLJ in SM64, meaning we label their absence.
This is explained in Wiki: PublisherGuidelines#BranchName. It's convoluted and can be confusing, but other solutions ended up being much more confusing and convoluted.
The Brookman wrote:
conversely, regarding my submission.
Why not label it "completes missions, in bounds"? Again, because neither term explicitly defines a restriction that precludes it's opposites.
Explicit: adjective: stated clearly and in detail, leaving no room for confusion or doubt.
To fully expand the terms I have applied to my submission would be "Does not abort missions, does not go out of bounds" it does not get more explicit than this.
reduced to "no mission aborts, no out of bounds"
further "no aborts, no oob"
"in bounds" is more characters than "no oob"
case closed.
Your reasoning here still seems subjective to me, because it's based on understanding certain definitions in a certain way. It also kinda depends on the presumption that most people also understand them similarly. Maybe they do, but then we need more of those people in this thread when aiming to reduce people's annoyance the most with our practices, we approach things differently.
We take the most common misconceptions and resolve them by relying on the most objective things. We apply due diligence and try to figure out why there's misunderstanding between our users. We try to hear them out, and we try to invent solutions that weren't obvious before, but may feel obvious after the fact. And we're ready to keep tweaking those solutions until nobody has a good reason to get upset about them. Which is why this post is so long and why I have the highest post count among non-bots.
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Updated:
A video game is audio/visual . It presents its content on some electronic device in audio and/or video form.
A video game is interactive. It requires repeated user input to progress.
A video game poses a virtual task. It requires the player to accomplish some in-game job.
User input is transformative. Which set of suggested in-game choices you make determines optimality level of your play.
A video game is finite. It has an objective end point, or a community vetted one.
jlun2 wrote:
For QTE games where it is mostly cutscenes, would that risk having copyright strikes in some cases if it were to be encoded and uploaded to Youtube?
I would love to see a list of QTE games (actual games that get sold, not something made in an afternoon for a meme), to find out which one stretches the definition of a game the most. Something like if it had 1 single QTE, but hours and hours of cutscene. Does that exist?
I don't think we can reliably predict this situation in advance and properly figure it out before it actually happens. Youtube heavily relies on good faith of those who file those strikes and plays safe to avoid being sued itself.
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Dimon12321 wrote:
And it's gonna be rejected due to being built on an unofficial Dolphin build once again?
When did that happen before?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
