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Radiant wrote:
What I think Adelikat means is that "any%" has a specific definition (i.e. "the fastest run") and we should not use that term if we mean something else (e.g. "an entertaining run that shows off a lot of the game but isn't the fastest"). There's nothing wrong with entertaining runs that show off a lot of the game, but just don't call them "any%". Use a different term.
I don't remember where I suggest using any% name at all. I suggested dropping the label for games that don't allow variety (NES: Batman, Darkwing Duck, Donkey Kong, stuff like that). Just because there's nothing you can put in that label for them, no matter how hard you try. Only self-imposed conditions for such games would need labels, like "pacifist" or "no jumps", but that wouldn't mean we need to put "no pacifist" or "jumps" to the other branch.
That especially makes since when we have 4 branches that avoid 1 thing and 1 branch that uses it. If we put "avoids the thing" to all 4, we're being silly, if we put it to some, we're inconsistent. And not basing the label on the in-built options we are also unclear to the viewer and not future-proof.
As for, where we use the label any% then, I have no idea. Just because it doesn't tell anyone anything other than "it's the fastest branch". Man, it doesn't fulfill its own purpose as a branch name: it neither tells by what conditions the goal was achieved, nor does it show how does that branch differ from others. If so, it shouldn't exist in that form at all! Use things for what they suit for... I can draw a movie flag for "fastest branch" in a few minutes, and all will be happy: all who want to know the fastest one would instantly know it, all who want to know the conditions would see it in the labels.
EDIT:
Radiant wrote:
Some people (e.g. Warp, if I understand him correctly) think End Game Glitches are like warps, i.e. TASes are expected to use them where they exist. A TAS that uses an End Game Glitch is the default branch and go in the vault. A TAS that foregoes an End Game Glitch is a special case that has to be labeled, and has to prove that it's unique enough for a separate branch, and entertaining enough for moon tier.
Other people (e.g. Feos, if I understand him correctly) think End Game Glitches are like cheat codes, i.e. TASes are expected to avoid them. A TAS that foregoes an End Game Glitch is the default branch and can go in the vault. A TAS that does use an End Game Glitch is a special case that has to be labeled, and has to prove that it's unique enough for a separate branch, and entertaining enough for moon tier.
Here you again re trying to solve the issue picking only 2 possibilities. If we only had 2 branches maximum, it would work, and worked. With Moons it's no longer which option one likes the most, it's about statistics and taxonomy. I'll quote the above:
If we put "avoids the thing" to all 4, we're being silly, if we put it to some, we're inconsistent. And not basing the label on the in-built options we are also unclear to the viewer and not future-proof.
EDIT:
Also, you keep referring the the priority system where world records are main and default goals and all other are side goals and must justify their existence by being entertaining. It's correct, but right up to the moment when the run DOES get published. After it's published, it no longer has any relation or dependence on the fastest, vaultable branch, it lives it own life. Which is, to fulfill the Superplay goal.
It means, we will have way more superplays than speedruns here for games that allow it. Superplays from the very past were actually our main site goals, since speedruns that were boring weren't accepted at all. But even superplays were limited in their amounts. Now, with Vault that allows boring speedruns, we also give freedom to superplays.
We would apply your priority system while judging them, but then we would get into an endless trouble of how to categorize those superplays better. You should understand, that once they are published, they can not be ruled by the Vault system. They need their own. They deserve it after all :)
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I was thinking of that game a bit lately, since now I have the skill to figure its stuff out, but I realized that it's so obvious other people could do it. If you know which bytes represent the triggers, you would need breakpoints to all of them, and then, navigating through all the rooms, watch, which room reads which bit. Then, use hex editor to change the value and see what changes in the as you re-enter the room. And what actions SET those bits can be found out later by namely disasming the code.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Scepheo wrote:
feos wrote:
Warp wrote:
Since the "official WR" is kind of the "main" run of the game, all the others being runs with alternative goals (which essentially trade speed for entertainment), it makes sense to leave the branch of this "default main" completion unnamed. It's the "default" branch, and thus doesn't need a name.
Yes, and what's the benefit of using exactly unnamed branch for that purpose?
There isn't necessarily any. But this branch is 'any%', and some time during the site's history people decided we didn't label runs 'any%' anymore. It is, however, still the "anything goes" as-fast-as-you-can category, so even the glitched jump-to-the-credits movies are simply 'any%'. I'm okay with bringing back that label, but labeling some of the anything-goes-fastest movie 'any%' and others 'glitched' is just inconsistent and unclear.
I see, you're exactly saying "it used to work" and I already answered that elaborately in the previous post.
Scepheo wrote:
feos wrote:
Yes, and what's the benefit of using exactly unnamed branch for that purpose?
There isn't necessarily any.
OK, why solve the problems this thread was spawned by, let's just ignore them. We don't need benefits to know what's better, what brings more good and what is future-proof. We can just apply stuff and be happy.
Spikestuff wrote:
Pointing something out in terms of Votes.
We have 3 votes to "Something else (post in thread)".
But we have only one person who "(post in thread)"
Unless I'm poorly misreading then we have 0 people who have infact posted their thoughts when selecting that one.
Also to the one who voted "You suck" smart way to waste a vote.
Edit: Got told that that Scepheo is one of the others.
Sorry Scepheo for not acknowledging your point or missing it completely.
I told you guys the thread is cursed. I spam on each page that I suggest the system that's better than the first 2 options in the poll and no one sees it.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Warp wrote:
Since the "official WR" is kind of the "main" run of the game, all the others being runs with alternative goals (which essentially trade speed for entertainment), it makes sense to leave the branch of this "default main" completion unnamed. It's the "default" branch, and thus doesn't need a name.
Yes, and what's the benefit of using exactly unnamed branch for that purpose? What if someone isn't looking for "fastest ever", but needs to know the gameplay conditions? For most unnamed branches gameplay conditions would differ, just as do most of our branches differ. Which means the goal set fails to be represented by that unnamed branch name. It's also inconsistent: all games have branches that show what game features they use to complete the game, and bam! suddenly some refuse to tell the viewer that information. As Demon Lord stated, highlighting the fastest branch can be done the soft way, and he suggested 2: adding an icon or sorting game groups by length by default.
Then, where, except for the Judge Guidelines do we tell the viewer that the unnamed branch is "fastest possible"? Then, why people keep thinking that only "fastest possible" needs that kind of highlight? Why not 100%? Why not a starred branch?
One may answer: "Well, it was traditionally there and all was ok". There are counter-arguments to that.
Glitched branch was also traditionally there, but people think it's not ok (and I proved it's not ok anymore as it was, so it needs some tweak, but not removal).
It was ok when the problem didn't exist, and the branch amount was limited. Now it's not limited, we will get a huge load of new categories on our site, and the viewer would need telling labels.
And what label is more telling than which is based on the in-built gameplay options? Such label would give at least 2 benefits:
Clarity (finally), since we would no longer serve up the single "anything goes" category by building all the other category names around it not caring how little sense they make. The viewer that doesn't have any knowledge of the game now would see that it has some options ("Richter", "hard mode", whatever) that are labeled consistently for all games. And those who know the game would see which gameplay options were used, rather than "whatever arbitrary goal set was spare from the any%".
Future-proof, since we won't be handling mostly 1-2 branches, but 3-5 (in a few years), and "blank" vs "some other" won't work anymore. The system is no longer WR-based, it's diversity-based and joy-based. Which means, our actual main and default goals are to entertain the audience, not to put records of various boringness.
If I'm wrong in my conclusions, quote and disprove. If my benefits are false, quote and disprove. If there are bigger benefits in the opposite side, please list them.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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This thread is cursed. Questions get asked several times and no one sees them. Answers are given several times and no one discusses them... I'll try once again.
Warp wrote:
The solution is easy, relatively speaking: Which one of them should be considered the "official world record" completion of the game? The other one gets a branch name.
feos wrote:
"None of the first 2 options in the poll is perfect. Each leaves a huge room for contradictions and arguments. So here's something different from both."
feos wrote:
So I'm asking, why invent ways to highlight the fastest branch by not having a label at all? Why serve up that holy cow? It worked when branches were limited, with Moons it just doesn't. If fastest is the default goal, all the rest break, since people seem to be unable to come up with terms that both camps would consider clear. Each camp believes their option is clear as day, and they disagree, so then both options aren't objectively clear.
I can understand when World Record gets hyped about in the real-time community, where it is constantly drifting from one guy to another. But WR exists for all categories they speedrun, not only for fastest. But why showcase the shortest possible WR by dropping the label? Can anyone please list the benefits that aren't contradictory to something other we need to handle here?
Also, I loved this:
adelikat wrote:
So I hear you answering the question as "We know it is a contradiction and dont' care, it is the lesser of two evils".
feos wrote:
"None of the first 2 options in the poll is perfect. Each leaves a huge room for contradictions and arguments. So here's something different from both."
adelikat wrote:
So you don't agree that it is a contradiction?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Oh, I forgot!
MESHUGGAH: use Marx's last WIP for level 3.
Marx: you may redo the later levels while we are shaving the earlier ones.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Hi Demon Lord, thanks for your thoughts. Please look at my previous post above and tell how well does that system match your expectations as a viewer. If you want the full picture, go here, thanks.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Radiant wrote:
I think this discussion would benefit from some concrete examples.
Looking at Super Mario World, the question is how we distinguish Masterjun's 1:39 run from Bahamete et al's 9:57 run. If we can't make this distinction, then they would be the same branch, and one should obsolete the other. However, making the distinction is straightforward: the former run uses what's know as the "credits glitch", and the latter does not. Of course, both runs also use a number of other glitches, but this is the main difference from a technical perspective.
So the debate is really whether
(a) Masterjun's run should be unlabeled and Bahamete's run should note that it avoids the credits glitch, or
(b) Bahemete's run should be unlabeled and Masterun's run should note that it uses the credits glitch, or
(c) both should be called something else.
How exactly we note that (and where, in the title or the description) is up for debate. By the way, the recently rejected submission also uses the credits glitch, but it is slower than the 1:39 run mentioned above.
The exact same thing applies to VVVVVV, with the recently discovered "text storage glitch". Either the 0:47 run should be unlabeled and the 13:30 run should note that it avoids the text storage glitch, or the 13:30 run should be unlabeled and the 0:47 run should note that it uses the text storage glitch. Or, of course, both should be called something else.
Funally!
(b) Bahemete's run should be unlabeled and Masterun's run should note that it uses the credits glitch "game end glitch".
The 13:30 VVVVVV run should be unlabeled and the 0:47 run should note that it uses the text storage glitch "game end glitch".
Battletoads now:
[2403] NES Battletoads "game end glitch" by MESHUGGAH, feos in 00:56.76 -> "game end glitch"
[1920] NES Battletoads "warps, 2 players" by feos & MESHUGGAH in 11:04.72 -> "2 player, warps"
[355] NES Battletoads "warpless, 2 players" by nesrocks in 24:57.47 -> "2 player, warpless"
[320] NES Battletoads "warpless, 1 player" by Phil, Genisto in 24:20.12 > "1 player, warpless"
You see what we do there? We don't rely on the rule set that we use for particular branches. We rely on the features the games allow. And if they allow gameplay corruption, it's also a feature! Not all games allow that, and for those that do, we would have a label that unites them ("corrupts memory" wouldn't).
And if the game allows some "simple" completion, like [1049] NES Batman by Aglar in 09:21.93, it doesn't need to label the gameplay features that were used, just because they aren't optional!
PS: bahamete's run may need some label still, showing what in-game features were used, to make the label tell us more than no label.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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What is a contradiction?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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adelikat wrote:
So I hear you answering the question as "We know it is a contradiction and dont' care, it is the lesser of two evils".
If this is correct, please confirm. And thanks for the answer.
I fail to see where you get the "dont' care" part from, but overall it's this:
"None of the first 2 options in the poll is perfect. Each leaves a huge room for contradictions and arguments. So here's something different from both."
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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jlun2 wrote:
feos wrote:
Heavy glitch abuse is when one does sequence breaking by some in-game means (game engine faults). Soft sequence breaking. Glitched is when one corrupts the gameplay and breaks the logical conditions for common soft sequence breaking, overcoming the gameplay limitations. Hard sequence breaking. What do you think?
I disagree with this, since it still wouldn't really work for movies that don't have memory corruption glitches but are heavily messed up like Link to the Past (It's a simple clip glitch, which means the movie that doesn't use it would still have "no clipping/mirror-jumping/mid air-saving/variant of exploration glitch").
You disagree with what? With Link TAS being named glitched? Well, if it doesn't corrupt the gameplay maybe it shouldn't be. It would depend on the way it skips to the end. I have no idea what it does, can anyone tell briefly?
adelikat wrote:
andypanther wrote:
Therefore, if the fastest way to beat the game is not called any%, this contradicts the meaning of the term.
To people voting for glitch/any, do you simply not agree with this? Or do you not care about the obvious contradiction?
I addressed that already. If we remove this contradiction, we get into many other troubles. If we force clarity in one place, it breaks in others.
So I'm asking, why invent ways to highlight the fastest branch by not having a label at all? Why serve up that holy cow? It worked when branches were limited, with Moons it just doesn't. If fastest is the default goal, all the rest break, since people seem to be unable to come up with terms that both camps would consider clear. Each camp believes their option is clear as day, and they disagree, so then both options aren't objectively clear.
I can understand when World Record gets hyped about in the real-time community, where it is constantly drifting from one guy to another. But WR exists for all categories they speedrun, not only for fastest. But why showcase the shortest possible WR by dropping the label? Can anyone please list the benefits that aren't contradictory to something other we need to handle here?
My proposal tries to consider both camps' points and reconcile them, but it also introduces something new, as that Moons system is new and there's no good way to handle it. And the situation will only get worse as new branches arrive.
If the game's engine stays intact, only some bugs in it are used to do sequence breaks, it's normal run. Not glitchless, since it would still have heavy glitch abuse. Normal runs should have labels telling the type of game completion (amount of players, if there's such an option, used character, whatever the game allows).
If the game engine gets damaged and completely ignored at some level, game execution gets broken and manipulated, sequence breaks concern corrupting and overcoming the gameplay logics, it must be labeled as "foo glitch". Not "glitched", because there may be dozens of ways to do that, and they can co-exist. Just some common ways to break stuff. "Game end glitch" works for quite a few games, "SRAM glitch" may work for some others, and if the glitch can't be abstracted, like "X-Ray glitch" is a thing-in-itself, then just put it exclusively.
This way we would be able to label "hard sequence break" runs as "foo glitch" and prove something that was mislabeled shouldn't have such label. It would divide all true game-breaking runs from normal ones ("soft sequence breaks"), and also keep their names unambiguous, yet common.
On the other hand, some normal runs would still need to have no label, if they don't do anything particularly exclusive conceptually. We just need to define the level of conceptuality. As I said, gameplay options provided by games must become such concepts.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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jlun2 wrote:
Currently, ""glitched" & any%" seems to be winning, so I'm wondering does that mean it'll be brought back even though noone has been able to define "game-breaking glitch"? :o
Edit:
scrimpeh wrote:
There is a bit of wiggle room regarding its exact definition, sure, but the meaning I always assigned to it was for a movie which would use one big glitch or combination of glitches to bypass a large chunk of the game's sequence in one fell swoop.
Explain why Super Mario 64 "0 stars" was never considered to be "glitched" please yet Link to the Past runs are. Are you saying skipping the 70 star requirement isn't a "large chunck" of the game?
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Sometimes it will kill some improvements. For example the thing where it all started: I'm 1 pixel ahead of you after the first bat in 2-2, but I get worse spawn of the warrior. I delay myself by half-pixel - no luck. I delay half-pixel more - and my time matches yours. Half-pixel more - and I'm behind again. You got very lucky with not perfecting the bat damage boost, and that all got discovered. But now we'll need to check several half-pixel delays each time something similar happens...
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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$B5 is an iterator. It rolls through all units that are available for the given room, and compares their spawn blocks with the current block. This way, the order in configs doesn't matter, it may load unit 15, then unit 5, then unit 80, if that's how many units are available for that room, and the current block picks them up in that order.
But what's interesting, it increments only by 8 each frame. Which means, you can delay object spawns by a frame or more, depending on how the total amount of room spawns divides by 8. Throughout the game, it's never more than 30, and varies all the way. Most importantly - this may need manipulation only with enemies that force you to lose frames, otherwise not, since all manipulation is done by delaying your progression. So each enemy that delays you, must be checked on whether it would save time to delay its spawn (which is possible to do by 0-3 frames, depending on the room).
Updated the function. The spawn will occur when the current block matches the unit block from config AND iterator rolls though those 8 units.
Language: lua
function Spawns()
-- feos, 2014
-- uncovers which spawns will occur per frame
local SubCur= memory.readbyte(0x50)/25.6
local PosCur= AND(memory.readbyte(0x51),0xF)
local BlCur = memory.readbyte(0x4E)
local Blptr = memory.readword(0x96)
local Yptr = memory.readword(0x98)
local IDptr = memory.readword(0x9A)
local Count = memory.readbyte(0xB4)
local Iterator = memory.readbyte(0xB5)-8
local IteratorLast = memory.readbyte(0xB5)-1
while (Iterator < 0) do Iterator = Count+Iterator end
if (IteratorLast < 0) then IteratorLast = Count+IteratorLast end
local Interrupt = AND(memory.readbyte(0x4C),0x40)
if (memory.readbyte(0x1FC) == 0x87)
or (memory.readbyte(0x1F3) == 0xD8) then
for i = 0,Count-1 do
local color1 = "white"
local block = memory.readbyte(Blptr+i)
local ypos = memory.readbyte(Yptr +i)
local id = memory.readbyte(IDptr+i)
local x = i*16%256+1
local y = 57+math.floor(i/16)*30
if (block == BlCur) then gui.box(x-1,y-1,x+12,y+23,"#00ff0088") end
if (i+1 >= Iterator) and (i+1 < Iterator+8)
or (i+1 < Iterator+8-Count) then color1 = "#ffccaaff" end
if (Interrupt > 0) then color2 = "red" else color2 = "#44ffffff" end
gui.text(x,y,string.format("%X\n%X\n%X",block,ypos,id),color1)
gui.text(108,41,string.format("Block: %X.%02d.%d\nIterator: %02d-%02d/%d",
BlCur,PosCur,SubCur,Iterator,IteratorLast,Count),color2,"#000000ff")
end
end
end
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Scepheo wrote:
feos wrote:
Radiant wrote:
It's worth noting that VVVVVV's so-called "glitched" rundoesn't use memory corruption, arbitrary code execution, or anything of the sort; it instead exploits a straightforward bug in the code.
It still uses some glitch, and does a sequence break straight to ending. Right? I'd call it "game end glitch". And the one that doesn't do it may be unlabeled (since it doesn't do anything special while completing the game).
Yes it does. It uses dying during the intro to break out of it, and later uses the intro cinematic to overwrite the go-to-gravitron game state. It still sequence breaks the game, using the exact same function (getting the gamestate to a value it shouldn't be in) except it does this in a slightly different way.
Please elaborate on the difference between 2 runs then. I now am not sure what's so conceptually different about them other than "showing more/less of the game".
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Let's try out my above approach to solve things :)
Radiant wrote:
It's worth noting that VVVVVV's so-called "glitched" rundoesn't use memory corruption, arbitrary code execution, or anything of the sort; it instead exploits a straightforward bug in the code.
It still uses some glitch, and does a sequence break straight to ending. Right? I'd call it "game end glitch". And the one that doesn't do it may be unlabeled (since it doesn't do anything special while completing the game).
Radiant wrote:
The advantage to the current system is that all branch labels are objective and clear. A run called "no warps" doesn't use warps; a run named "all gems" collects all gems in the game; and a run labeled "no breadcrumbs glitch" doesn't use the breadcrumbs glitch. This has worked fine for 99% of the 2500+ runs on the site.
The problem with that was (and still is) that some branches that avoid the "breadcrumbs glitch" are labeled as "no breadcrumbs glitch", while some others that avoid it (or where it's not possible, but still) somehow don't have that label. Inconsistency. And in long-terms, it's also very confusing for a first-time viewer, because one would assume branches that don't have the "no breadcrumbs glitch" label do use that glitch.
Radiant wrote:
The problem with "glitched" vs "non-glitched", and the reason why this was removed in the past, is that nobody so far has given an objective and non-arbitrary definition for it. For some people the distinction is about skipping the final boss, for some it means warping past most of the game, sometimes it's about wall zipping, etc, and this has led to a lot of debate. If we could all agree on a meaning (e.g. defining "glitched" to mean "memory corruption") then that would prevent a lot of future debate.
Check out my above definition. Even though I'm not for the "glitched" label, but for abstracting the kind of hard sequence breaks into several common labels instead on just one.
Radiant wrote:
It strikes me that the underlying issue is not so much the terminology, but the fact that for a handful of games (notably Super Mario World and Super Metroid) there are many different branches, and it is not obvious how these varied goals interact with arbitrary code execution. I think it would be better to consider how to deal with many-branched games, than to vote on which term to use for one of them.
With Moons, we must be virtually ready for all games having 5+branches. No one now restricts the amount of branches, so what happens now with these few games will definitely happen to others.
jlun2 wrote:
I find option 2 ("glitched" & any%) far too inconsistent since it makes runs like LttP be titled as "glitched" but not runs that look far more glitchier liketheseforexample be titled as such. And before anyone argues that they don't skip bosses or whatever, all those movies linked basically destroy the game such as skipping most of the game.
Yeah, refer to my above solution and tell what you think of it. Though, as I said, I'm not for putting all hard sequence breaks under one label, but rather for grouping them by the type of that.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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My quote from VVVVVV:
In a long run, we would need a system that makes, say, 5 branches per game easy to handle on both the user and the staff sides. With Moons, you never know which branch will appear next, and if there are plenty, the system must be crystal clear. For now, any solution for that was delayed until there are actual problems. And only a few games provide real difficulties in categorization. But as I said, Moons remove the branch limit, so if we don't solve it in time globally, it then gives us more problems to solve locally, just like this one.
First, I want to state, that "glitched" itself is as ambiguous as "any%": because it's literally anything that could lead to fastest/glitched game completion. Super Metroid is a good indication of that: both 2 fastest runs are "glitched" by what that traditionally used to mean, but they are both so well-received that they're both published. You can't get away with naming them "glitched". You would have to state, which glitch they use, or, maybe, which kind of a glitch it is. So in a long run, "glitched" label, though it showcases the difference from the "less glitched" branches, isn't unique enough to allow SEVERAL glitched branches of the same game, if they are well-received.
Then, I would like to show my personal preference, that accounts for the long run of the Moons system and removes ambiguity from "any%". Here it is:
No label must be left only for games that have no variety on how to complete it. If it gives you several endings, each ending must be labeled. If you can choose the amount of players, or the character that alters the gameplay over the other(s), put it as a label. If it is warps, their use must be part of the label.
That way, the viewer will in 100% cases know what he's looking at. Basically, it's about which movie tags must become branches. Some of them already are, some better not be.
If such approach is applied to varieties of glitched branches, there may appear "game end glitch", "SRAM glitch", etc. that would work for quite some cases, showing the similarity.
This is all because I don't see any benefits in the "drop the label for every fastest branch" approach. It simplifies some management, but makes the other things much harder. And when used along with "no X" thing, it spawns really ugly issues.
Also, I realized how to resolve the difference between the glitched branch and heavy glitch abuse tag. People always confuse these 2 concepts, since they are both sequence breaking, so here's the solution:
Heavy glitch abuse is when one does sequence breaking by some in-game means (game engine faults). Soft sequence breaking. Glitched is when one corrupts the gameplay and breaks the logical conditions for common soft sequence breaking, overcoming the gameplay limitations. Hard sequence breaking. What do you think?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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In a long run, we would need a system that makes, say, 5 branches per game easy to handle on both the user and the staff sides. With Moons, you never know which branch will appear next, and if there are plenty, the system must be crystal clear. For now, any solution for that was delayed until there are actual problems. And only a few games provide real difficulties in categorization. But as I said, Moons remove the branch limit, so if we don't solve it in time globally, it then gives us more problems to solve locally, just like this one.
First, I want to state, that "glitched" itself is as ambiguous as "any%": because it's literally anything that could lead to fastest/glitched game completion. Super Metroid is a good indication of that: both 2 fastest runs are "glitched" by what that traditionally used to mean, but they are both so well-received that they're both published. You can't get away with naming them "glitched". You would have to state, which glitch they use, or, maybe, which kind of a glitch it is. So in a long run, "glitched" label, though it showcases the difference from the "less glitched" branches, isn't unique enough to allow SEVERAL glitched branches of the same game, if they are well-received.
Then, I would like to show my personal preference, that accounts for the long run of the Moons system and removes ambiguity from "any%". Here it is:
No label must be left only for games that have no variety on how to complete it. If it gives you several endings, each ending must be labeled. If you can choose the amount of players, or the character that alters the gameplay over the other(s), put it as a label. If it is warps, their use must be part of the label.
That way, the viewer will in 100% cases see what he's looking at. Basically, it's about which movie tags must become branches. Some of them already are, some better not be.
If such approach is applied to varieties of glitched branches, there may appear "game end glitch", "SRAM glitch", etc. that would work for quite some cases, showing the similarity.
This is all because I don't see any benefits in the "drop the label for every fastest branch" approach. It simplifies some management, but makes the other things much harder. And when used along with "no X" thing, it spawns really ugly issues.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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AngerFist wrote:
Perhaps enough exciting to warrant a star, but I do not understand why you must remove a star from a previous Mega Man game to give it to this one.
MM5 was starred due to a notable use of weapons, other than that, it's an average run. This TAS now, obsoletes the hell out of MM5's weapon usage, and has tons of great things MM5 doesn't have. Also, MM5 is the third in a row NES Mega Man run that is starred, which kind of makes it available for de-starring if a better example is found. MM1 and MM2 are different enough and are both perfectly executed, which grants them separate Stars, which now can't be said about MM5.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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This is all the pointlessness you guys get after getting rid of the "glitched" branch. Enjoy.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Warp wrote:
feos wrote:
Tool Assistant maybe?
Urban dictionary defines "tool" as: "One who lacks the mental capacity to know he is being used. A fool. A cretin. Characterized by low intelligence and/or self-steem."
How much have you seen it actually used that way?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Tool Assistant maybe?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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This function (add it to whatever framely function you run) will read object configs for the current room and show all that will be used. First line is at what block it will spawn. Second line is position: left nibble is Y, right nibble*15 is X. Third line is ID. When the screen is at the same block where there is an object in config, it will get colored in green. Note that once the screen is at that block, the new object instantly spawns.
Under the "ENEMY" there is a display of the current block. But it's tricky. Subpixel (third value) is normal, pixel (middle value) is ANDed with 0xF (showing only the right nibble). One would assume that block number increases whenever pixel overflows, but nope. After pixel overflows, there's an interrupt, loading the new block set into RAM. So the value is written to the current block only after that interrupt.
Language: lua
function Spawns()
local SubCur= memory.readbyte(0x50)/25.6
local PosCur= AND(memory.readbyte(0x51),0xF)
local BlCur = memory.readbyte(0x4E)
local Blptr = memory.readword(0x96)
local Yptr = memory.readword(0x98)
local IDptr = memory.readword(0x9A)
local Count = memory.readbyte(0xB4)
local Interrupt = AND(memory.readbyte(0x4C),0x40)
if (memory.readbyte(0x1FC) == 0x87) then
for i = 0,Count-1 do
block = memory.readbyte(Blptr+i)
ypos = memory.readbyte(Yptr +i)
id = memory.readbyte(IDptr+i)
if (block == BlCur) then color1 = "green" else color1 = "white" end
if (Interrupt > 0) then color2 = "red" else color2 = "#44ffffff" end
gui.text(i*16%256+1,57+math.floor(i/16)*30,
string.format("%X\n%X\n%X",block,ypos,id),color1)
gui.text(128,49,string.format("B: %X.%02d.%d",BlCur,PosCur,SubCur),color2,"#000000ff")
end
end
end
Will figure out the spawn differences tomorrow.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
