Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
Sure!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
I guess your wording is just too confusing, again.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
How is that even 100% of anything then?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
The RTA rules demand all 64 races to be completed for 100%, why did you make up an exception and skipped 17 of them? Doesn't sound complete really.
About upgrades, does this movie maximize all upgrades or just a few?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
Looks quite nice, voting Yes. Just unsure if the shots at the final boss are missing, if that's intentional.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
DrD2k9 wrote:
If it was simply about enabling falling through the bottom of the screen and being sent to the top of the screen; it would be a desirable testing feature for ANY pit, not just the non-death/scrolling pits.
Regardless of whether the purpose is to prevent scrolling or to allow warping Scrooge to the top of the screen, the other question is why program it to only work when he's falling and not while climbing down the ropes that initiate scrolling?
It's this last part that I think I struggle with most in believing this was an intended feature. Why prevent scrolling only when falling in these few instances where it's a not a death pit, but not prevent scrolling when Scrooge is on a vine/rope? It seems a VERY limited feature to have specifically programmed, even for testing purposes. The only reason I can see this being the case is to specifically test the scrolling initiated when climbing down a vine.
Debug leftover means that most debug features were removed before release, but not all of them, since humans tend to miss things. As the prototype shows, there were more.
I think similar branches were added to other places related to pit falling. And since Asm is quite a messy language, you can only hardcode or copy-paste things in. Then when you feel like removing the extra checks, you do a text search and edit those checks out one by one. And then you miss a few, which is why debug leftovers even exist.
DrD2k9 wrote:
Another reason why this wouldn't be a very good debug feature is the cases where using the feature can result in Scrooge being out of bounds. The feature would only have helped testers in very few situations and would have made testing more tedious in others by getting them out of bounds and forcing them to either reset the console, manually re-position Scrooge, or somehow find a way back in-bounds in order to continue testing intended game features. Testing is about breaking a game....not trying to figure out how to get back to normalcy from a broken game state.
Getting into walls is quite obviously a part of game development and testing. I don't think screen-wrapping was used explicitly for that, because it could be coded to happen more easily for the purpose of testing. But I think it's obvious that this one feature we have here wasn't the only one added just to test scrolling and nothing else was ever tested in a similar way.
DrD2k9 wrote:
1) This may be a leftover feature that originally had an intended in-game purpose, but that reason was removed from the final product. Thus this feature may not a debugging leftover, but an unused feature.
Yeah, like controlling ducks with the second controller in Duck Hunt.
DrD2k9 wrote:
2) This was a debug feature, but only part of the code for that feature. Meaning that what we're abusing isn't how the feature was intended to be used. This would mean that this submission is a valid use of this button combination/effect; abusing poor programming (or more accurately, poor removal of programming) to yield a result unintended by developers in normal play.
Except the game is checking a very specific input which we're sending, and then it explicitly enables screen-wrap. We can't know developers' intentions, but we can avoid explicit checks by glitching the game. This is why [1627] SNES EarthBound "check glitch" by pirohiko, MUGG in 30:42.12 was accepted:
FractalFusion wrote:
This run uses a glitch which passes through a debug menu which cannot otherwise (as to our knowledge) be accessed by means apart from external codes. If the debug menu was easily accessed by an internal code, that would be a different story. As it stands, it can only be assumed as part of the glitch process, and it will be allowed.
In the apparently non-existent event that such an internal code is found later, the published run will be placed in the impure category and any further runs going through the debug menu will likely be rejected.
The borderline that can be used here is not what something was meant to be used for, but how it's accessed. With SNES Earthbound, the debug menu was meant to be used for cheating during development, and not meant for regular user play. But it's exactly what that movie uses it for! Yet it's allowed because it's accessed through a glitch.
There's an argument that debug menu was allowed only because we don't know how to access it without glitching. If that is used as a borderline, then as FractalFusion said it'd put us in an impure situation when a movie gets invalidated after publication. And the problem with this is that for any game we can't be sure that there's no input combination enabling debug features. To be sure, the game code has to be exhaustively analyzed, and we can't afford that.
Yet blatantly using cheats or debug features often feels cheap, even via glitching. For example, imagine that you can get invincible for the entire game by entering a code, and you glitch yourself into this mode in level 1, playing the entire game invincible. That insolently violates our guideline about difficulties, so it'd have to be rejected in the end.
As for this game, there's no glitching involved when enabling screen-wrapping, and it's a known input combination, and it's clearly not meant for normal play since you only play this game with 1 controller.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Duck Tales, Wanpaku Duck Yume Bouken(UNI) Avoid falling from upper stages (added 29.03.14):
During the game, only bottom levels of the stage are deadly if you fall into the holes. When falling from the upper levels, you just moving to the lower ones. To avoid falling from the upper levels and loop back from the top of the screen, hold Up on controller 2 while falling.
Red means "cheats are unique, not listed on any site".
UNI means "unique cheats".
The way he finds those is by scanning ROMs for what input they read. And it seems in the official release there's only this one check left. And the prototype apparently has more.
PS: http://www.thealmightyguru.com/Games/Hacking/Wiki/index.php?title=DuckTales
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
Thing is, people like to misuse everything, and for any poll you present to them they will vote their own idea of it, as Moth describes in the post I linked. Just like they skew it with 3 options, they will skew it with 6. The former experiment showed that they eagerly tend to vote maximum just because they want it to be published, and it wouldn't correspond to how movies are rated at all. It's human nature and it can't be fought. I think what we have is the least of all evils.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
Why did you completely skip the IRC quote?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
From how feedback is worded in posts and judge's comments.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
Homebrews are fine for Vault, but they have to be notable. I don't think this port existed prior to this movie, so there's no following to it yet.
Speed-coding is another thing to ponder, and it's been addressed in the previous TI83 submission already, but here's my view.
Vault rules on games wrote:
A game which is about free form creativity is not a proper game.
I consider coding a free form creativity, because you can basically code anything, and the coding process won't contain any gameplay. Hence speed-coding itself shouldn't be a part of the TASing competition. Though if the result is a playable game that's meant to be coded first and only then played (for example due to limitations of the platform) playing such games can be considered acceptable. The game should just satisfy the Vault rules in this case. For example, in addition to the rule about homebrews, there's a rule about triviality and standing out from unassisted play.
Oh and no, I wasn't entertained at all by this movie.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
This extra course doesn't look like an explicit in-game option. There's a certain point after which if you die you just go to the next level and skip the extra course. But it's not clearly visible to the player.
If it was possible to just die before the flagpole in SMB and still finish the level, I don't think we'd argue that jumping on the flagpole is vaultable extra content. For Moons we'd welcome extra content like this, but it wouldn't count as full completion, because of how minor this route appendix is.
So I think it should be trimmed away to make the movie complete the game ASAP.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
Now you make it sound like the submission poll is something particularly bad. It would be bad if its results always contradicted the posts, making things extremely confusing for any judge and the audience. But there's very little contradiction. When feedback is confusing (and doesn't match the publication ratings), it's confusing in both votes and posts.
As it's been explained a ton of times already, we neither (literally) completely disregard the votes, not do we assign absolute meaning to them. They contribute to the final decision. They also give people an easy way to express themselves. Since its easy, its value is low. But it's never been zero.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
You can't fight human nature. The best thing you can do is working with it to get the least terrible result.
Poll being imperfect encourages people to actually post their thoughts. If a poll is perfect, no "real human" feedback is encouraged. But it can't be perfect because of point 1. So we'll end up having 2 things that don't work instead of just one.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
It's not a bad movie, but I found it quite long for the moderate variety it has.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
It's not the first time we're having this talk. See this post for some answers: Post #421554
<feos> Moth: do you have a link explaining why this idea failed? http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=487669#487669
<feos> this looks like a FAQ thing at this point
<Mothrayas> feos: it caused huge overinflation of movie ratings, as most people can't give a proper rating during the first view/submission process
<Mothrayas> inflation as in excessively high ratings
<feos> I know, just don't have a link
<adelikat> yelah, huge over inflation
<adelikat> when people want a movie published, they are going to do 10/10 very commonly during the submisison process
<adelikat> anything less feel like less of a yes vote
[...]
<WarHippy> Moth, Feos, Adelikat: I just read your replies here. I didn't realize people skewed their votes so much in the past. I didn't even know that used to be how it was.
<Mothrayas> it was only like that for a little while
<Mothrayas> like less than a year, from 2007-2008ish
<WarHippy> ok
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
We only count % when it actually means something in-game, like in Super Metroid.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
You're losing 5 frames after the skip in level 2, up to level 3 start. I tried basic lag reduction and saved 16 frames up to the boss spawn.
Branch 4 is when you spawn the boss, branch 5 is when I do.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
Better compared to what?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
Lobsterzelda wrote:
There are a lot of times where I see a run on the workbench which is pretty boring for me to actually watch, but is extremely optimized and a good example of TASing. However, by convention I vote yes on the workbench poll for these, even though I'm not very entertained by them.
Even if I believe that the quality of a run lends itself to publication in moons or vault tier, that doesn't necessarily mean that I found the run very entertaining. Even for movies of popular games which get accepted into moons, I still sometimes run into the issue of not wanting to vote no because I think that the movie should be published (but I don't necessarily find it entertaining).
On the other hand, there are also occasionally runs submitted to the workbench which have some unoptimal or sloppy parts that should prevent them from being published. However, when I watch the movie itself, I am entertained by it anyway. However, I feel obliged to vote no on the workbench poll, because me voting yes would imply to some that I believe that the movie is optimized enough that it should be published, when in reality, all I want to say is that I was entertained by watching the movie.
Just like the current, single question can be completely misinterpreted in so many ways regardless of what we actually use it for when judging a movie, imagine how much misinterpretation 2 or 3 questions will introduce. When assessing ideas we shouldn't limit our take on them to just their pros. We need to ponder their contras and compare ideas based on these 2 scales. Only then we will be able to tell which idea is better, clearer, harder to misuse for a large crowd.
If people don't want to post and explain their impression behind just one vote, what will make expressing those details via several anonymous polls more reliable? It will just skew the overall feedback even heavier. And quite predictably, it will encourage people to completely disregard the thread, since every tiny detail can now be expressed via these 3 polls.
Memory wrote:
Warp wrote:
If the poll and the discussion in the thread agree with each other, then there's little problem in terms of judging. However, if there seems to be some kind of disagreement between the poll and the discussion, this could induce the judge to consider the tier decision more carefully, and perhaps even ask the community some questions in the thread if necessary, and ask for more opinions and clarification.
This is pretty much how I use the polls.
That's how we all do it.
DrD2k9 wrote:
However if the majority of voters are in disagreement with the judge, the judge knows that a more thorough explanation of why the movie does/doesn't fit the rules is warranted as part of the judgement note.
If all you have is votes and no posts, there's nothing to argue about, because no posts provide no insights or hints regarding viewers' opinions. So we ask for them, and then apply our knowledge about tiers, deciding if the silent votes stand against it. But this data is never totally ignored. If we have 0 No votes and 50 Yes votes, we will not blindly send a movie to Vault.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Branch 4 is when you spawn the boss, branch 5 is when I do.